Old Course - A Mediocre British Open Site?

[Bill_McBride]

Bill

Seems you have worked it out (the Form ref), well done

Melvyn

Hmmm.  I know both of those lads personally and there's not an AH between them.  Must be some kind of joke!

[JWinick]

When you've got driveable par 4s that weren't designed as such and the wind as the only factor that can hold down scoring, it is no longer a suitable site.  Plain and simple.   Stop the BS.  The low scores on Friday proved that the course is defenseless without wind. 

TOC is no different than the vast majority of classical courses.  Unless you change the technology, you are forced to disrupt the design. 

The idea that TOC is the only course that requires thinking is hogwash.   Every links course does.

This is not to say that the Old Course shouldn't be revered as a crown jewel and the home of golf.  Perhaps, the powers that be may see this experience as a warning.  It will take bold action, such as removing TOC from the rota to force the "guardians of the game" to wake up.   

[Bill_McBride]

When you've got driveable par 4s that weren't designed as such and the wind as the only factor that can hold down scoring, it is no longer a suitable site.  Plain and simple.   Stop the BS.  The low scores on Friday proved that the course is defenseless without wind. 

TOC is no different than the vast majority of classical courses.  Unless you change the technology, you are forced to disrupt the design. 

The idea that TOC is the only course that requires thinking is hogwash.   Every links course does.

This is not to say that the Old Course shouldn't be revered as a crown jewel and the home of golf.  Perhaps, the powers that be may see this experience as a warning.  It will take bold action, such as removing TOC from the rota to force the "guardians of the game" to wake up.   

The low scores on Friday?  Are you talking about Rory's 80?

[John Moore II]

A question I most likely all ready know the answer to: If a player were to go to St. Andrews to play, is it even remotely possible to play the Open Tees on TOC?

And to go with the thread, I think TOC is a fine Open site. Like I said on another thread last night, it would probably be handy to add in a few select bunkers in key spots to bring features like Hell Bunker back into play, and other features, preventing players from driving the ball well over the existing bunkers.

[Richard Choi]

I don't know about a mediocre Open site, but the TV ratings were pretty mediocre (actually they were TERRIBLE...).

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/othersports/2012398458_digs20.html

In comparison, "LeBacle" drew 3 times the ratings.

[Chris Kane]

A question I most likely all ready know the answer to: If a player were to go to St. Andrews to play, is it even remotely possible to play the Open Tees on TOC?

No chance.

[Melvyn Morrow]

I think Clinton was the last one who had that honour

Melvyn

[Adrian_Stiff]

Largely this Open was the dullest one I can remember, the ones that have not been so good have involved runaway winners, its not great TV fun when the fat lady is tuning up even at the start of the round. I dont think St Andrews is a great course to watch live because you cant get close enough, on TV it does not work great either, almost as if the cameras cant get close enough, it lacks the prettyness on TV whilst it does have the natural beauty when you are there.

On the plus side I think TOC gets away with the short 4s like 9, 10, 12 and 18 because it only has two natural short holes. I like watching the pro's drive and hole it for two at 18 and I am sure Jock Hutchinson's brilliant tee shot at the 9th in 1921 woud have been great TV as well. Who cares about par anyway?

[Ted Cahill]

Let's face it- the last three Opens at TOC have not been dramatic on Sunday. It appears as if one guy figures it out and cruises to victory.

[Bill_McBride]

Let's face it- the last three Opens at TOC have not been dramatic on Sunday. It appears as if one guy figures it out and cruises to victory.

Ted, I was there on Sunday 2005 and I don't really remember it as dull at all.  Both Olazabal and Montgomerie were within hailing distance, and the Scots were chewing on the bleachers over Monty's play.  Tiger finally wore them down, but it was by no means a walk over.

This year was still a ball game until Casey's fiasco at #12.  I enjoyed Zinger's comment:  "You'd think he could have played that (lousy) shot more quickly." Or words to that effect!

No arguing that 2000 was a wipe out!

[Adrian_Stiff]

Bill - I think this year the set up was quite tough on day 4, a lot of holes did not offer birdies. The pickleheads choosing a pin 85 yards on needs some explaining, the second was tough, three not easy, four was between those ridges, then 5..even the first was a bit close to the burn... 8 on .. it was hardly the set up for someone to get off to a quick zizzy start, it almost needed at guy at -7 to move to -11 or 12 quickly. The dullness was the relentless pars Paul Casey and Louis made versus none of the others making a move. Things hotted up when Louis dropped a shot on 8 and the Casey drove 9, within 10 minutes tho Louis had equalled the drive holed the putt and ofcourse by 12 it was Times Up. Good TV needs birdies and eagles or dropping shots and disaster. Bad TV is relentless pars.

[JWinick]

Is it your objective to completely misconstrue what I said?   I'M NOT TALKING ABOUT THE ARCHITECTURAL MERITS OR SIGNFICANCE OF THE OLD COURSE....I'M TALKING ABOUT WHETHER IT IS STILL A STRONG MAJOR SITE.

Olympia Fields had 3-4 players under Par.   It held up ok.... 

The low scores on Friday proved that the course is defenseless without wind.

Jon, that being the case, you should resign OFCC immediately (or at least vote against pursuing another Open), given the torching it got in the last US Open when the wind was down.... 

I'm not going to argue with you.  But it's pretty clear to me you don't see the shades of gray that make TOC unique, even among GB&I's links courses.....

[JWinick]

Thank you.  It's pretty rare these days to find people who aren't consumed with GCA group think.

Let's face it- the last three Opens at TOC have not been dramatic on Sunday. It appears as if one guy figures it out and cruises to victory.

[JWinick]

The last 3 British Opens at TOC featured winning scores of -16, -14, and -19.   The top-10 in '10 combined to shoot 80 under par.   Compare those scores to the last three British Opens held at different courses.  The numbers don't lie. 

[Dan Moore]

Seems to me it identified the player who was playing by far the best over the course of 4 days of widely variable conditions.  That seems pretty relevant.  The caliber of past champions speaks for itself.  Combine that with the way they have to navigate around the course by playing all sorts of different shots, I don't see how you can possibly say its mediocre as a championship venue.  

[Chris Kane]

Nor do they lie about Augusta National...the last three Masters tournaments have featured winning scores of -16, -12 and -8. The top-10 in 2010 combined to shoot 99 under par.

[JWinick]

Why do they even have bunkers at TOC?   No one ever seems to be in them.   Ok, so rate the TOC in the British rotation?  Where would you rank the Old Course?

Seems to me it identified the player who was playing by far the best over the course of 4 days of widely variable conditions.  That seems pretty relevant.  The caliber of past champions speaks for itself.  Combine that with the way they have to navigate around the course by playing all sorts of different shots, I don't see how you can possibly say its mediocre as a championship venue.  

[David_Elvins]

Is it your objective to completely misconstrue what I said?   I'M NOT TALKING ABOUT THE ARCHITECTURAL MERITS OR SIGNFICANCE OF THE OLD COURSE....I'M TALKING ABOUT WHETHER IT IS STILL A STRONG MAJOR SITE.
Olympia Fields had 3-4 players under Par.   It held up ok.... 

Olympia Field was a Par 70.  if you call 9 and 18 at the old course Par 3s, St Andrews holds up just as well as Olympia Fields. 

[Jim Nugent]

Seems to me it identified the player who was playing by far the best over the course of 4 days of widely variable conditions.

Which courses have not identified the golfer who was playing the best? 

[David_Elvins]

Seems to me it identified the player who was playing by far the best over the course of 4 days of widely variable conditions.

Which courses have not identified the golfer who was playing the best? 

Riviera

Six way playoff in the Nissan Open, 2001.

[Kevin_Reilly]

My opinion - this thread is insane.  I've seen some far-fetched opinions on this site recently (SH a Doak 5 or 6???) but saying TOC is a mediocre Open site takes the cake.

[Mark Pearce]

The last 3 British Opens at TOC featured winning scores of -16, -14, and -19.   The top-10 in '10 combined to shoot 80 under par.   Compare those scores to the last three British Opens held at different courses.  The numbers don't lie. 

So what?  If score against par is the measure of the quality of a major venue then presumably you want Carnoustie '99 repeated year on year?

[Pat Burke]

From a players standpoint, I would venture a wager that more players would prefer to play in anOpen
at St. Andrews than any other site.

While we as pros are at times, (let's see if I remember) selfish, spoiled,pampered,clueless, boring,
one dimensional, greedy, pompous (I know there are more ), most of the guys I knew,
thought it goosebump inducing to be announced on the first tee of TOC.

Some guys may not "get it", but most do appreciate walking in the shadows of the ghosts of all of golf's greats. (almost all, sorry ben).

I remember putting for birdie to a hole just over the Valley of Sin and getting chills thinking that almost every great player has probably hit a putt in that area.  Pretty awesome

[Sean_A]

J

Since "mediocre is a relative term, it suggests there are less and better than mediocre courses on the Open Rota.  Could you please identify those courses?

Ciao

[JWinick]

Mark,

At what point would the scores be too low?  Where do you draw the line?  When would you say, "yup, you're right, this is too easy for the pros."   -20?  -30?   Already, we have 4 driveable par 4s and bunkers that no one is ever in?   The golf course is a bomber's paradise. 

The last 3 British Opens at TOC featured winning scores of -16, -14, and -19.   The top-10 in '10 combined to shoot 80 under par.   Compare those scores to the last three British Opens held at different courses.  The numbers don't lie. 

So what?  If score against par is the measure of the quality of a major venue then presumably you want Carnoustie '99 repeated year on year?