[Wayne_Kozun]

I just happened to check out the Links Trust's website for Greens Fees and I noticed that the Castle Course has fees about 90% as high as TOC and almost twice as high as the New or Jubilee.  Is the Castle Course worth it or are you better off playing the New and Jubilee for half the price while you are waiting to get on TOC?

High Season (19 April- 17 Oct)
TOC £130
New & Jubilee £65
Castle £120

[Tom_Doak]

How much is the Eden Course?  That's where I played most of my golf when I lived in St. Andrews.  They've destroyed a few of the original holes, but there are still some good ones in there, and I'm betting it's a bargain.

[Wayne_Kozun]

The Eden is £40

[Mark Arata]

Considering that the god awful TPC of Louisiana tries to get 125 for whatever passes for a prime golf season in this oil filled swamp, 200 american seems like the deal of a lifetime!  Or 5 rounds at TOC vs. 2  at Pebble (or 1 if you are forced to stay at the lodge in order to book a tee time)

 

[Martin Toal]

Move to St Andrews and get a resident ticket for £170 for the year, allowing play on all the Links Trust courses.

[Melvyn Morrow]

Regards St Andrews

I would use the rough rule that if you can't walk to it or back from it to your hotel/bar or whatever, then its not worth the money or for that matter playing it.

Its just a rough rule of thumb but works for me.

Melvyn

[TEPaul]

Call me odd or very odd but I would not pay the kind of money mentioned on this thread to play any golf course.

Perhaps this kind of thing has just crept up on us so slowly that too few even think of it today but having to pay that kind of money (like $200 plus) to play a golf course one time is just economic exclusionism plain and simple!

I would love to know how many rounds at 130 TOC does in a single day in season or at any other time. Given that we can do the math!  

And what's Pebble Beach these days---over $500??

Come on! That's nothing more than an a virtual cash register. Why don't they just charge $1,000 a round; they'd probably make more money and end up actually preserving the golf course. St Andrews could do the same with TOC and they then might not have to make golfers play the course using a God-damned plastic mat to hit balls on the course off of!

Just the very idea of having to play a golf course as historic and interesting as TOC obviously is off a God-damned plastic matt is just about the most incongruous and unattractive thing imaginable, at least to my way of thinking about golf and that great old golf course.

Talk about the deleterious influence of something like the cart in golf-----the very idea of being asked to play golf at TOC off a plastic mat actually obviates one of the most fundamental aspects of the game of golf-----"THE LIE" and the natural and unpredictable randomness of it!

A PLASTIC MATT at TOC??? Come on, give me a break! Who in the hell runs that place anyway? Is it the so-called Links Trust? If so they should be completely ashamed of themselves!

Melvyn, you live there; you take care of this mess will you please?

Sick 'em Melvyn, SICK 'EM!

[Mark McKeever]

Move to St Andrews and get a resident ticket for £170 for the year, allowing play on all the Links Trust courses.

Ill go buy some lottery tickets tonight so I can quit my job and move there.

Mark

[Wayne_Kozun]

Call me odd or very odd but I would not pay the kind of money mentioned on this thread to play any golf course.

There are dozens of mediocre public/resort courses in North America that cost over $200 so from that perspective TOC is not all that expensive.  I would also estimate that at least a third of members of private clubs have a per round cost in excess of $200, at least here in Toronto where annual dues and related fees at higher end private courses are about $6000 per year so you would have to play 30 rounds to get down to $200/round.

[TEPaul]

WayneK:

I'm not talking about private clubs and courses. I know that model like the back of my hand. I grew up with that one. I'm talking about public golf courses. That kind of money is just too much if the intent is to actually cater to the true public golf course golfer model on a regular basis.

Frankly, I would just love to see all foreign golfers and tourists boycott St Andrews and TOC for a full year or more, just to see what that Links Trust or whatever it is who runs that place does about their "public" course aspect then!

Then they could just go back to their "community" or "common land" model and it would be real interesting to see what they could or would charge then.

[Mark McKeever]

WayneK:

I'm not talking about private clubs and courses. I know that model like the back of my hand. I grew up with that one. I'm talking about public golf courses. That kind of money is just too much if the intent is to actually cater to the true public golf course golfer model on a regular basis.

Frankly, I would just love to see all foreign golfers and tourists boycott St Andrews and TOC for a full year or more, just to see what that Links Trust or whatever it is who runs that place does about their "public" course aspect then!

Then they could just go back to their "community" or "common land" model and it would be real interesting to see what they could or would charge then.

While were at it, we need to boycott Bethpage too...

Mark

[Wayne_Kozun]

But does St Andrews cater to the true public golf course golfer?  Maybe for those from Fife, but not for the rest of us.  It caters to the golf tourist and likely the high-end tourist.  

An economist would say that they are way underpricing their fees since demand still far outstrips supply - and many visitors pay far more than £130.  To be honest I have far less of an issue with TOC charging £130 than Torrey Pines (owned by the city of San Diego) charging non-residents $229.  For a visitor from North America, Japan, etc. the £130 is not too bad - I think what has gotten rather outrageous is the fees charged by some of the other courses in Scotland like Gullane, NB, Cruden Bay, etc.  They are now generally well over £50 for visitors which is getting out of line with reality., especially when you consider what they charge for guests of members or for the locals for an annual ticket.

[Melvyn Morrow]

Tom

I would love to get involved but some would get the wrong idea, that I was trying to promote myself instead of trying to work for the good of the course/Game.

The problem with TOC is what you guys know a lot about over there. The market place. The demand of the market is what its all about when referring to TOC. Many golfers will pay whatever to say I played TOC  and the stream is nearly endless. The old supply and demand problem, in fact I am surprised its just £130 and not more.

The mats or thought of the maps disappear as soon as you step off them and start the walk of a life time, only to be bettered when you walk up the 18th at the end of the round.. It’s that magic place for the average golfer - they hears the crowds cheering as they walk up the 18th - Tom £130 certainly seems rather cheap for that first experience nearly orgasmic to many.

It’s the old supply and demand and the Links Trust know how to work it.

Melvyn

[Bill_McBride]

WayneK:

I'm not talking about private clubs and courses. I know that model like the back of my hand. I grew up with that one. I'm talking about public golf courses. That kind of money is just too much if the intent is to actually cater to the true public golf course golfer model on a regular basis.

Frankly, I would just love to see all foreign golfers and tourists boycott St Andrews and TOC for a full year or more, just to see what that Links Trust or whatever it is who runs that place does about their "public" course aspect then!

Then they could just go back to their "community" or "common land" model and it would be real interesting to see what they could or would charge then.

Tom, weren't you out at Bandon recently?  What did you think of the cost of a long weekend of golf out there?   

Travel to wonderful venues is expensive, but having played a few rounds at the Old Course and paid full freight, I wouldn't trade it for anything.

C'mon, cough it up!  Your life is not complete without some time logged on the Old Course!

[TEPaul]

"It’s the old supply and demand and the Links Trust know how to work it."

Maybe they do but in my opinion they should learn how to work it better and to work it better for the benefit of TOC itself. One indicator of that for TOC and foreigners willing and wanting to play it would be when they don't have to use God-damned matts to play it anymore.

I suggest instead of 130 a round the Links Trust charge foreigners 1300! That way they will seriously limit RPYs (play) and massively help the poor old TOC's turf and such. And they would probably make more money too. That's what I call REAL MARKETING!

They could then reduce the cost for the people that course was begun for in the first place----the community of St. Andrews---people like you.

Hell, I would even suggest that they have a policy whereby if a foreigner wanted to play for less they would need to find a St. Andrean to play with! What could be better than that? What the heck, they could even create a third tier price structure where some foreigner like one of those unattractive Americans or Japanese could pay a bit less if they walked the dog or cat  or even the goat or whatever of a St Andrean around the course during their round.

[Mark Pearce]

TEP,

Locals pay £170 for year round access to 6 courses.  And you think it should be cheaper?

[Sean_A]

Man, you lot just can't knock it off.  You are begging for me to go off on The Trust - yet again!  No one will get an argument from me that refutes a £130 green fee for a public course is outrageous and golfers should be boycotting TOC if they had any sense about them.  There is no reason why the Trust can't charge £65 for TOC and still present very fine courses for public consumption.  Mind you, I am not sure which is more stupid, theTrust charging £130 or a private club charging a guest of a member $250!  Both are signs that the golf business either has far too much money or is critically short of money - its likely both are true.

Ciao

[Wayne_Kozun]

Travel to wonderful venues is expensive, but having played a few rounds at the Old Course and paid full freight, I wouldn't trade it for anything.

I agree - for most of us on this site that have an obsession with the game playing on TOC is a fantastic experience that you will not soon forget and £130 is quite reasonable for that experience.

What's the line about a cynic - Knows the price of everything but the value of nothing.

So I won't argue that you aren't getting good value for your £130 at TOC.   The Castle Course at £120 is a totally different story.

[Brian Freeman]

I thought Jubilee at £65 was a reasonable value and prepared to excellent standard in line with that price point.  Would not say the same about the New Course.  And we never even thought about the Castle based off all the feedback on this board - it is clearly not aligned with the other courses.

Here's how I look at it.  The courses belong to the Links Trust.  As for the other major venues in Scotland, they belong to their members.  My opinion is the owners can charge and limit access however they wish, it is up to them to decide and us to respond as appropriate based off their decisions as to how to run the courses to best meet their objectives.  If they want to completely restrict access except to locals or members, that is their right.  In the US, Augusta is completely private, as are most of the US Open and PGA venues.  I will likely never play Augusta National and have made my peace with it.  After spending most of my life in a part of the world (NC, TN) where the majority of the great courses are private and restricted, I consider it a privilege to be allowed to play any of these great courses and not an entitlement. 

So I prefer to recast the argument from that perspective.  There is a lot more right with the Scottish model than there is wrong with the Scottish model.

[TEPaul]

"Mind you, I am not sure which is more stupid, theTrust charging £130 or a private club charging a guest of a member $250!  Both are signs that the golf business either has far too much money or is critically short of money - its likely both are true."


Sean Arble:

Not really. It all depends on what a club is trying to accomplish. I remember quite a few years ago now (like 20-25) Seminole realized the price they could charge "unaccompanied guests" (guests who although they had to be sponsored by a member weren't playing with a member) was unbelievably elastic. The reality was they really didn't want to encourage that type of play anyway so when they realized how elastic the price was they just kept raising it and raising it until it got so high it sort of began to accomplish their real purpose (and to boot they unexpectedly ended up with more revenue that way then they at first imagined possible).  

[Sean_A]

I thought Jubilee at £65 was a reasonable value and prepared to excellent standard in line with that price point.  Would not say the same about the New Course.  And we never even thought about the Castle based off all the feedback on this board - it is clearly not aligned with the other courses.

Here's how I look at it.  The courses belong to the Links Trust.  As for the other major venues in Scotland, they belong to their members.  My opinion is the owners can charge and limit access however they wish, it is up to them to decide and us to respond as appropriate based off their decisions as to how to run the courses to best meet their objectives.  If they want to completely restrict access except to locals or members, that is their right.  In the US, Augusta is completely private, as are most of the US Open and PGA venues.  I will likely never play Augusta National and have made my peace with it.  After spending most of my life in a part of the world (NC, TN) where the majority of the great courses are private and restricted, I consider it a privilege to be allowed to play any of these great courses and not an entitlement.  

So I prefer to recast the argument from that perspective.  There is a lot more right with the Scottish model than there is wrong with the Scottish model.

Brian

Of course you are correct.  However, my argument is there is no need for a public course which has no debt on the property to charge more than say $100 a game and still present a course in good nick with the owners making money if they are sensible with costs.  Course just don't need to be either that good or in that type of condition to charge more money.  IMO, places that charge $200 a game are VERY suseptible to economic conditions and thus often look for ways to impress golfers with things that have nothing to do with a quality course presented in good nick.  This sort of price rising just bounces back and forth until we get the situation we are in now where even in the UK the price of the great courses is essentially an excluisonary system and I would say the Trust is very much a driving force in creating this.  

Tom P

I think there is a big difference between a guest and a visitor or an unaccompanied guest.  I will never understand members wanting to charge their mates $250 a game.  It seems much more sensible to charge visitors (or unaccompanied guests) that sort of fee and restrict guests to a reasonable number at a vastly cheaper price- even if a club can only take in ~20% of its income from outside sources. 

Ciao    

[TEPaul]

"Tom P
I think there is a big difference between a guest and a visitor or an unaccompanied guest."


Sean:

In many cases these days it's probably because in reality too many of them are basically what you call visitors. I think more than ever before people tend to arrange that kind of access through a friend of some member who isn't there to play and may not even want to but he sponsors some group of players for his friend who isn't there either.

Sometimes when members see too many groups of people out on their course they don't recognize they start to mention it. You may not like to hear that or like the sound of it but that's often the reality. Basically they're looking a bunch of people you and I might call visitors but to them they are just total strangers.

[Mark Chaplin]

Tom mats are from November to end of March hardly the peak season for once in a lifetime visitors and the greenfee takes this into account. It's quite easy to avoid mats - avoid the winter!

I find it quite astounding how much some clubs charge for a members guest, I appreciate member's games may cost just as much over the year but the idea of inviting someone then having to charge then $200+ is obscene.

I know one famous Philadelphia club charging $220+ allows members a number of "friends and family" tickets at around $80. Is this a common approach?

[Wayne_Kozun]

I think there is a big difference between a guest and a visitor or an unaccompanied guest.  I will never understand members wanting to charge their mates $250 a game.  It seems much more sensible to charge visitors (or unaccompanied guests) that sort of fee and restrict guests to a reasonable number at a vastly cheaper price- even if a club can only take in ~20% of its income from outside sources. 

The issue here is that clubs need to collect a certain amount of revenue each year to run the club at the level that they see fit.  They could cut Guests fees down to very low levels but then the annual dues for members would have to go up and you would likely have more play on the course from non-members which could make it harder for the members to get tee times.  And the members that don't bring guest would be subsidizing those that do.So each club has to find a balance that they think makes sense.  

Here in Toronto most of the upper tier private clubs charge around $150 for a prime time guest which is a little bit less than the upper tier CCFADs (Glen Abbey, Eagle's Nest, Angus Glen) which tend to be about $170-235.  But add in a cart (if you want it) and the numbers become more comparable.

[PCCraig]

Seems like a nice deal to me Sure it's a little steep if you plan on being there a while, but if you're staying for a few nights it's not too much to get a few rounds on the Old Course and to through a couple others in.

Worst thing you can do when visiting is to only play the Old Course once.

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