[Chris Kane]

Pat, are there prevailing winds ?  If so, how do they influence play ?

Pat, when I lived in St Andrews in 2006-07, I played the Home hole into the wind more than I played it downwind. Obviously I don't hit the ball as far as a tour player, but I could count on one hand the number of times I had a chip or putt for my second shot. 

And even when I caddied for a friend at the Links Trophy, he hit a driver and at least a full wedge each day.

Its a totally different hole when you're hitting a full shot with your second, and the Valley of Sun is most certainly in play when you're hitting a 5-iron!

[Patrick_Mucci]

Chris,

Based on the responses to date, including yours, it would seem as though the VOS is in play into the wind, but, that the shot is relatively easier since the wind acts as a backstop, versus when the hole plays downwind and the golfer doesn't reach the VOS on his drive.

Is that an accurate assessment ?

[Chris Kane]

Yes, but only if the shot into the wind is with a wedge. I'd fancy my chances with a half wedge downwind over a 7-iron into the wind.

The other thing to note about the VOS is that it isn't the worse place to be - its not a difficult up and down. Home isn't a difficult hole at all, but for an elite player, making 4 feels like giving up a shot to the field.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Chris,

When I played and examined the VOS it seemed like a feature more entwined in history/tradition than difficulty.

I didn't see that its difficulty measured up to its reputation.

Am I missing something ?

Is the feature more difficult than I perceive ?

[Chris Kane]

When I played and examined the VOS it seemed like a feature more entwined in history/tradition than difficulty.

I didn't see that its difficulty measured up to its reputation.

Am I missing something ?

Is the feature more difficult than I perceive ?

The greatness of the VOS is in the effect it has on golfers trying to get close to the final day hole location. You are absolutely correct that the difficulty in recovering from it doesn't match the reputation - for that reason it probably shouldn't be called the VOS!

[Patrick_Mucci]

Chris,

When did the feature get named "VOS" ?

Do you think the name originated when the game was played differently, many years ago ?

[Bill_McBride]

Pat, are there prevailing winds ?  If so, how do they influence play ?

Pat, when I lived in St Andrews in 2006-07, I played the Home hole into the wind more than I played it downwind. Obviously I don't hit the ball as far as a tour player, but I could count on one hand the number of times I had a chip or putt for my second shot. 

And even when I caddied for a friend at the Links Trophy, he hit a driver and at least a full wedge each day.

Its a totally different hole when you're hitting a full shot with your second, and the Valley of Sun is most certainly in play when you're hitting a 5-iron!

I hit driver / 4 wood into the wind from the 2nd tee on the reverse Old Course.  I was thrilled to see the shot chase up through the valley to birdie range!

[CJ Carder]

I have 3 things to say:

1.  First, with respect to the Valley of Sin, if I'm setting up the course, I'd strongly consider placing the pin as far back into the green as possible if the hole is played into the wind and as far forward if it's downwind as both pin placements would seem to put a premium on distance control.  Into the wind, with a back pin, you have to worry about going long if you're getting aggressive for a birdie.  So the player keeps it down and along the ground, making distance control even more difficult due to negotiating the Valley of Sin.  If the hole is playing downwind and the pin is way up (as it was for a few days in this tournament), the player must either come in from an extreme angle (left or right) or negotiate a short pitch and run or putt through the Valley of Sin to a very narrow landing spot.

2.  Regarding the idea of a lot of bunkers being out of play for the professionals, I still maintain that part of the course's genius is that a player may never notice a certain bunker until he gets a different wind and unsuspectingly finds his ball smack in the middle of a bunker he had no idea was there. 

3.  I chuckle at how much play this idea of the Old Course being an antiquated test is getting.  Folks, let's not forget that save for 1 player, no one finished lower than -9.  By comparison, you had 5 people finish lower than that at the Masters and I have yet to hear anyone call for Augusta National to be replaced.  I've heard people complain that if the wind didn't blow then this would have happened, or if so and so had putted better then that would have happened.  Such are the vagaries and rubs of green that are ever present in links golf.  It's why links golf is so much more interesting than the slog-it-out target golf that so many of us Americans seem enamored with.  We (all golfing observers included) complain for 51 weeks a year that tour courses are boring and lack creativity or strategy or options, yet when we get some of that and our ideal world isn't 100% perfect, we complain that it's too easy.

[John Moore II]

Patrick Mucci-You you not respond to my red letter post? We were having such a top notch discussion and now its just fizzled away. I'm saddened.

[Chris Kane]

When did the feature get named "VOS" ?

No idea, perhaps Melvyn Morrow is your man there.

Do you think the name originated when the game was played differently, many years ago ?

Yes.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Well, it would ruin the experience for them.

I almost posted that I felt that repositioning the bunkers would be the worst solution.

Which is why I put in the second part of my sentence saying add a couple more bunkers at specific spots on the course putting more bunkers in play for the best players. Perhaps some of the bunkers that are currently in the middle of the knee high grass could be eliminated, making it to where there are more bunkers in the playing areas. That would be a very minor change to the course.

Someone on here the other day mentioned a bunker farther back in the fairway bringing Hell Bunker more into play on the second shots on 14. That would be a very minor modification. Same with other bunkers placed elsewhere.


JKM,

TOC isn't like any course, thus tampering or altering it has to be taken very seriously and very cautiously.

As many have stated, the course presently provides an adequate test for every level of golfer.

The dilema TOC faces isn't dissimilar from the one GCGC faces with regard to bunkers that used to come into play that no longer come into play for a large proportion of the golfing world.

If there is an answer for historic courses, I'd lean toward the addition of bunkers.
The beauty of a new bunker is that it can always be removed without leaving a permanent scar on the golf course.

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[/quote]

[Bill_McBride]

When did the feature get named "VOS" ?

No idea, perhaps Melvyn Morrow is your man there.

Do you think the name originated when the game was played differently, many years ago ?

Yes.

Not sure about the name "Valley of Sin," but Old Tom raised that green because of constant flooding of the area as stormwater made its way into the North Sea.  During the excavation for the new green, an old cemetery was found and relocated.   Perhaps that's the "sin" referred to!

It might be one of the greatest feature names in golf, along with the Church Pews, the Devil's A---hole and Hell Bunker. 

[David Lott]

The pros still need a nice running shot through the valley with a following wind. With their driver of course.

Serious answer--greatly reduces the feature as an issue for the long hitting pro.

With the wind, drive through it.

Against the wind (unless very strong), easier to loft in second shot.

Against strong headwind, still a factor.

[John Moore II]

Well, it would ruin the experience for them.

I almost posted that I felt that repositioning the bunkers would be the worst solution.

Which is why I put in the second part of my sentence saying add a couple more bunkers at specific spots on the course putting more bunkers in play for the best players. Perhaps some of the bunkers that are currently in the middle of the knee high grass could be eliminated, making it to where there are more bunkers in the playing areas. That would be a very minor change to the course.

Someone on here the other day mentioned a bunker farther back in the fairway bringing Hell Bunker more into play on the second shots on 14. That would be a very minor modification. Same with other bunkers placed elsewhere.


JKM,

TOC isn't like any course, thus tampering or altering it has to be taken very seriously and very cautiously.

As many have stated, the course presently provides an adequate test for every level of golfer.

The dilema TOC faces isn't dissimilar from the one GCGC faces with regard to bunkers that used to come into play that no longer come into play for a large proportion of the golfing world.

If there is an answer for historic courses, I'd lean toward the addition of bunkers.
The beauty of a new bunker is that it can always be removed without leaving a permanent scar on the golf course.

[/quote]
[/quote]

I think at a place like TOC it would be easier to add a few bunkers than it would at other places. As a place like Pinehurst #2, it would be fairly hard to add a bunker without it being really obvious because most of those bunkers out there are fairly large and kind of set apart from each other. However, at TOC, from that can be seen in aerial images, the bunkers seem to be aligned in groups of 3 or 4. It would be fairly simple to add another bunker either shorter or longer from the tee or wherever, making them more in play and more strategic. And, as you say, they would be fairly cheap to construct and cheap to cover up if for some reason they turn out bad. Major renovations/rebuilds like Augusta has done I am not generally in support of, however, a minor, cosmetic change like we are talking about with TOC would not be some horrible miscarriage of justice if done properly.

[Patrick_Mucci]

JKM,

As I said, any alteration involving the addition of bunkers would have to occur only after careful evaluation.

Perhaps, with current technology, a graph/schematic indicating the location of drives during the Open, would be of help before introducing any new bunkers.

[John Moore II]

JKM,

As I said, any alteration involving the addition of bunkers would have to occur only after careful evaluation.

Perhaps, with current technology, a graph/schematic indicating the location of drives during the Open, would be of help before introducing any new bunkers.

Certainly an outstanding idea. Perhaps that is what clubs should look into as a cheaper way of combating distance rather than spending to infinity on lengthening projects.

[Philip Gawith]

Sorry Pat - late in the day. I think the reason the bunkers are less in play is partly due to the factors you allude to (technology/land) and partly due to Tiger's 2005 victory (and his similar victory at Hoylake in 2006) popularising bunker-avoidance as a key way to defending your score on Open championship courses with punitive bunkers.

And maybe on a running links it is easier to accept the price of this strategy in terms of distance foregone because you don't aspire to get the ball so close to the hole with your approaches anyway, so are readier to hit in approach shots from far out which might only get you to 30 feet from the flag.

 

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