Has distance rendered the

[Patrick_Mucci]

"Valley of Sin" meaningless ?

Many, many years ago, that feature seemed to come into play and have an influence on play.

Recently, it seems to be nothing more than vestigial feature that's more part of the lore, memories and traditions found at TOC.

Or, are F&F conditions responsible for its seeming demise ?

[David_Tepper]

I witnessed a good number of pitches, chips and putts (all 2nd shots) on to green that were deflected into the Valley of Sin, especially on the 1st day. It certainly was still a relevant factor.

On the days the hole was playing downwind, many golfers were able to drive the green, even running their tee shots thru the right hand side of the VoS. But then again, Jack Nicklaus drove thru the 18th green with a 3-wood almost 40 years ago.   

[Philip Gawith]

Not sure about the Valley of Sin, but what about the bunkers? Five years ago Tiger did not enter a single one - this time round Oosthuizen only visited one (just behind the 14th). Considering the dozens of bunkers around the course, it would seem for the pro's the vast majority are aeshetic. I saw a lot of the Open and there were not many bunker shots played.

[Niall C]

Patrick

Interesting post, I think its more in play now than before but in a larger variety of ways now that guys are routinely capable of getting up with their drives. If I recall the last couple of Opens the players routinely went left and long to take it out of play. Now they are prepared to "take it on" which is great because its turming into a true risk/reward feature as any one short and off line has a difficult second shot to get near the hole. Yesterday there was even a few bogeys with a think Kaymer being a good example of being caught out by the Valley of Sin.

Niall

[Patrick_Mucci]

Not sure about the Valley of Sin, but what about the bunkers? Five years ago Tiger did not enter a single one - this time round Oosthuizen only visited one (just behind the 14th). Considering the dozens of bunkers around the course, it would seem for the pro's the vast majority are aeshetic. I saw a lot of the Open and there were not many bunker shots played.

Philip,

Do you think that's because the current player is capable of flying them and certain holes can't be lengthened to bring them back into play ?

[TEPaul]

"RE: Has distance rendered the....."Valley of Sin" meaningless ?"



No


Young star Rory McIlroy putted the ball out of the Valley of Sin up onto the green and right off the front of the green again. That was not without meaning as it cost him another stroke.  


However, I fully recognize there is virtually no way Pat Mucci will recognize or acknowledge that fact! 

[Anthony Gray]

  It is still a prominate feature even for the pros. It does take the ball to the left so if you are trying to drive the green you have to take a bolder line to the right which flirts with OB. And even there in one its not a given two putt.

  Anthony

[Bill_McBride]

Not sure about the Valley of Sin, but what about the bunkers? Five years ago Tiger did not enter a single one - this time round Oosthuizen only visited one (just behind the 14th). Considering the dozens of bunkers around the course, it would seem for the pro's the vast majority are aeshetic. I saw a lot of the Open and there were not many bunker shots played.

Philip, I think the bunkers are so punitive that the players take inordinate caution to avoid them.  Look at the 13th hole where so many played left of the Coffins just to find the gnarly rough over there.  The worst case of irrelevance is the Hell bunker, at least for those guys.   

[John Moore II]

Not sure about the Valley of Sin, but what about the bunkers? Five years ago Tiger did not enter a single one - this time round Oosthuizen only visited one (just behind the 14th). Considering the dozens of bunkers around the course, it would seem for the pro's the vast majority are aeshetic. I saw a lot of the Open and there were not many bunker shots played.

Philip,

Do you think that's because the current player is capable of flying them and certain holes can't be lengthened to bring them back into play ?

If you are not able to make the holes longer, would it not be possible to reposition the bunkers in order to put them more into play or add a few additional bunkers that are actually in play to make them more relevant given current lengths?

[JLahrman]

Not sure about the Valley of Sin, but what about the bunkers? Five years ago Tiger did not enter a single one - this time round Oosthuizen only visited one (just behind the 14th). Considering the dozens of bunkers around the course, it would seem for the pro's the vast majority are aeshetic. I saw a lot of the Open and there were not many bunker shots played.

Or is it just the case that the fewer bunkers you wind up in, the better you're likely to do.  Is there a place where we can access how many bunkers each player was in for the week?  Given the number of times you have to play out sideways, the likelihood of catching a lip, etc., I would guess that what you'll find is that the fewer bunkers a player finds the better he's going to do.  I wouldn't necessarily expect this at your normal Tour stop.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Not sure about the Valley of Sin, but what about the bunkers? Five years ago Tiger did not enter a single one - this time round Oosthuizen only visited one (just behind the 14th). Considering the dozens of bunkers around the course, it would seem for the pro's the vast majority are aeshetic. I saw a lot of the Open and there were not many bunker shots played.

Philip,

Do you think that's because the current player is capable of flying them and certain holes can't be lengthened to bring them back into play ?

If you are not able to make the holes longer, would it not be possible to reposition the bunkers in order to put them more into play or add a few additional bunkers that are actually in play to make them more relevant given current lengths?

How would that affect play for the golfing universe for all but 4 days every 5-7 years or so ?

Wouldn't repositioning those bunkers ruin the experience for those golfers playing the course on days when the British Open isn't conducted ?

[JLahrman]

Pat, if the course had been a little firmer I'm not sure that those bunkers couldn't be in play for the pros anyway, especially on windy days.

[jonathan_becker]

For a lot of the guys that were driving the green, the valley of sin was slowing down many tee shots at the right moment.  From what I saw, it kept balls in good position for eagle opportunities .  

[John Moore II]

Not sure about the Valley of Sin, but what about the bunkers? Five years ago Tiger did not enter a single one - this time round Oosthuizen only visited one (just behind the 14th). Considering the dozens of bunkers around the course, it would seem for the pro's the vast majority are aeshetic. I saw a lot of the Open and there were not many bunker shots played.

Philip,

Do you think that's because the current player is capable of flying them and certain holes can't be lengthened to bring them back into play ?

If you are not able to make the holes longer, would it not be possible to reposition the bunkers in order to put them more into play or add a few additional bunkers that are actually in play to make them more relevant given current lengths?

How would that affect play for the golfing universe for all but 4 days every 5-7 years or so ?

Wouldn't repositioning those bunkers ruin the experience for those golfers playing the course on days when the British Open isn't conducted ?

Well, it would ruin the experience for them. I almost posted that I felt that repositioning the bunkers would be the worst solution. Which is why I put in the second part of my sentence saying add a couple more bunkers at specific spots on the course putting more bunkers in play for the best players. Perhaps some of the bunkers that are currently in the middle of the knee high grass could be eliminated, making it to where there are more bunkers in the playing areas. That would be a very minor change to the course. Someone on here the other day mentioned a bunker farther back in the fairway bringing Hell Bunker more into play on the second shots on 14. That would be a very minor modification. Same with other bunkers placed elsewhere.

[JWinick]

Was anyone underwhelmed by the Old Course as a site for the British Open?   I'm just not sure its a relevant site for a British Open anymore....

[Sean_A]

If the hole is located near the front of the green I think the VoS works just fine for the pros.  There is a lot of fireworks there, but these guys know they have lost at least half a shot if they par the hole. 

An interesting comment I think from Wayne Grady; he thought that guys would routinely take a line much closer to the road if it weren't St Andrews.  Guys weren't afraid of OOB as mush as they were of the infamy of going OOB right on the 18th at St Andrews.

Ciao

[Steve Kline]

More than the length of the ball I think it is the fact that it doesn't curve as much that is making TOC defenseless. Even in the windy conditions players were still shooting pretty good scores. I believe this is because they know the ball is mostly going to bore through the wind because there is very little side spin on it. This makes it much easier to avoid all the trouble and all the bunkers.

While TOC was fun for me to play (but come on 6,200 yards max) and the course has contributed greatly to game and its strategy and the development of many other courses, it seems like it is no longer suitable for the elite players of the British Open. It happened to Prestwick and it is probably time for it to happen to TOC. The wind did blow and Oosthuizen still almost broke Tiger's scoring record. If the wind didn't blow we would have been watching the Quad City Open with the winner at -25. I think too much emphasis is put on score and protecting par but TOC is just too easy for these guys.

[Matt MacIver]

One guy lapped the field - on Thursday and Friday, and then played very well on the weekend.  Louis' score is an outlier and happens occassionally - good on him. 

TOC remaimed relevant for the rest of the field, and the fans. 

[Melvyn Morrow]

I agree with Niall.re on the Valley of Sin

As for TOC rather than knock her out of the running and the emotional conflict you create by doing so (in fact could the R&A live with that from within itself), I not just feel but know the only option if we are want to keep cost down and certainly keep our older course is to finally address the issue. Forget player fitness, courses do not need to be re-designed but clubs and the ball does, no must. Or are you telling me golf is now descended to just the thrill of hitting a long drive, all other challenges fading totally. I firmly believe that we can achieve all the fun and thrill of the game but re booting the equipment to that at the time of the Haskell. It will keep our course in use at minimal cost only requiring a new ball and a new set of clubs. Don't believe me then try playing The Hickory Game to understand the full idea behind the total roll back.

Clearly we can't go on as we are, what the current option build new course through the world, where is the money not to mention land going to come from and at what cost? It’s a no brainer, perhaps that why the R&A have said no roll back of the ball - their lack of brains or I feel it’s more the total lack of understanding the need let alone the urgency.


You may of course not agree and have a different suggestion  - if so let’s hear it.

Melvyn 

[PCCraig]

Downwind? The Valley of Sin is far less of an obsticle for the pros as their drivers were running right through it.

If they were hitting into the wind it would of been much more of a strategic issue.

[PCCraig]

Was anyone underwhelmed by the Old Course as a site for the British Open?   I'm just not sure its a relevant site for a British Open anymore....

Jon:

Where else do they hold it that you find more interesting?

Personally I find that most of the Opens, from a viewing standpoint, can be quite boring. I thought last week was a blast to watch.

[Melvyn Morrow]

Who would move The Open from St Andrews, if the Valley of Sin did not come into play due to the long drives to the Green. Would the R&A?

To move The Open from St Andrews would be the equivalent of the R&A stating that they got it wrong.  Their credibility will have been shot and people in power in the golfing world would then I believe be questioning their right to remain in control.

To admit they were wrong would see a mass of resignations (mostly forced), leaving a poison challis for others. Add to the fact that their base is St Andrews throws in another element concerning/regards their ability to any form of forward manage. They would IMHO have brought about their own potential demise due to a state of denial and total incompetency. Fancy overseeing your own destruction on the basis of sheer blood denial that a problem exists even when you see drives finishing on Greens.

There is the possibility that they could survive but would be ever so weaken.

Melvyn

[Patrick_Mucci]

Downwind? The Valley of Sin is far less of an obsticle for the pros as their drivers were running right through it.

If they were hitting into the wind it would of been much more of a strategic issue.

Pat, are there prevailing winds ?  If so, how do they influence play ?

[JESII]

Pat,

From my perspective - television only, never played TOC - I would say it impacts play more now because the players get their tee shots so close to it. 30 Years ago when it took a strong wind to get near it, most players would seem able to hit  anormal tee shot to 80 - 120 yards out and hit a full shot onto the green without too much concern for it.

Maybe I am wrong, but Rocca in 1995 would never have chilli-dipped his pitch over it if it were flat ground.

[Niall C]

Downwind? The Valley of Sin is far less of an obsticle for the pros as their drivers were running right through it.

If they were hitting into the wind it would of been much more of a strategic issue.

Pat,

I would have thought the opposite would be the case.

Downwind the difficulty is distance control ie stopping the ball, particularly with OB behind the green. Into a headwind the player can hit a punch shot taking the Valley out of play. Admittedly it is very unlikely that even the pro's will drive the green into a head wind.

Niall