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Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Relationship of GCA to the wedding industry in the USA?
« on: July 18, 2010, 06:57:27 PM »
Is there any relationship to the wedding industry and the future of GCA?

Many clubs are turning to weddings and banquets to survive and/or turn a profit.    Could this ultimately affect the quality of GCA we see in the future - negatively or positively? 

So often these days you see certified club managers running clubs - these folks are experts at food and beverage but are sometimes clueless about golf.   My fear is that we could see an era where food and beverage becomes the dominant theme at clubs and that the opportunities for great golf course architecture could be threatened.

In the spirit of full disclosure, I was married at a golf club that I was a member of, but we only had 45 guests - it was definitely not the type of event clubs are going after these days.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Relationship of GCA to the wedding industry in the USA?
« Reply #1 on: July 18, 2010, 07:01:46 PM »
Dan:

I've been involved with two or three clubs which struggled financially because they built their clubhouses too large WITH AN EYE TO ACCOMMODATING WEDDINGS.

If your club has a clubhouse that big, maybe you need to go for them in order to justify it.  But the truth is that no golf club should ever have a clubhouse big enough to appeal to a bride-to-be.

RSLivingston_III

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Relationship of GCA to the wedding industry in the USA?
« Reply #2 on: July 18, 2010, 08:08:02 PM »
My biggest complaint with weddings at golf courses is the wedding party always ends up on the 9th or 18th green and won't get out of the way.
Just what you need is a bunch of women stomping around in high heels punching a slew of holes in the greens.
"You need to start with the hickories as I truly believe it is hard to get inside the mind of the great architects from days gone by if one doesn't have any sense of how the equipment played way back when!"  
       Our Fearless Leader

Chris Buie

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Relationship of GCA to the wedding industry in the USA?
« Reply #3 on: July 18, 2010, 08:13:26 PM »
Oh, I don't know Ralph.  Wouldn't that help the financially strapped clubs save on aeration fees?
 ;)

RSLivingston_III

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Relationship of GCA to the wedding industry in the USA?
« Reply #4 on: July 18, 2010, 08:18:07 PM »
I am not an expert but I believe they are to big and not deep enough. ;)
"You need to start with the hickories as I truly believe it is hard to get inside the mind of the great architects from days gone by if one doesn't have any sense of how the equipment played way back when!"  
       Our Fearless Leader

Colin Macqueen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Relationship of GCA to the wedding industry in the USA?
« Reply #5 on: July 18, 2010, 09:50:06 PM »
I always keep a wary eye open for the response of the betrothed-to-be exchanging vows as an exasperated expletive drifts up from the eighteenth green and ricochets around the wedding party. There is the occasional stall by the celebrant but not enough to put one off a putt.

Colin
"Golf, thou art a gentle sprite, I owe thee much"
The Hielander

Richard Choi

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Relationship of GCA to the wedding industry in the USA?
« Reply #6 on: July 18, 2010, 09:58:18 PM »
Well, in defense of brides out there, some golf courses are better as a wedding site than for golf - The Golf Club at Newcastle (WA), for example. It is a fantastic place to hold weddings, with its outstanding views and a lovely facility. Too bad, the golf is absolute snorefest (and they have 36 holes of it!).

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Relationship of GCA to the wedding industry in the USA?
« Reply #7 on: July 18, 2010, 09:59:48 PM »
We had that discussion the other day.....

In reality, besides the size of the clubhouse, you need to upsize parking because June weddings and long golf days means overlap on space, unless you have a way to valet park.

While golfers get teed off at brides on the green, brides don't really like their guests sharing clubhouse space with sweaty, profain golfers either.  Its not really a match made in heaven.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Relationship of GCA to the wedding industry in the USA?
« Reply #8 on: July 19, 2010, 06:52:48 AM »
I guess my fear is that the new wedding factory mindset may dumb down GCA because it's just not as central to a club as it was in the past.  In the same way, I fear that new restoration projects may also be shelved for the same reason.

I'm all for a club making some money on the occasional wedding.  It's just when you have golf become secondary that GCA is threatened.

Steve Burrows

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Relationship of GCA to the wedding industry in the USA?
« Reply #9 on: July 19, 2010, 10:42:24 AM »
In a strong economy, all amenities (golf, tennis, weddings, dining, etc) can be successful under one roof  But, in a weak economy, some, or all, of the parts can fail.  Having said that, a place like Wal-Mart is (much to my dismay) an example of quite lucrative operation that at least pretends to offer everything to everyone at one location.  But then again, they also don't pretend to have any real variation from location to location.  It is their monotony that aids in their success.   

But, really, there are at least a couple of different questions being asked here: First is whether the actual design of a golf course suffers from the presence of wedding amenities.  By itself, no, I don't think it necessarily does.  However, if one goes with the maxim that a "championship" course, or a club that is "golf only," is designed with different intentions and geared towards different playing abilities than a "members" course or "country club," then yes, the architect will make concessions that could conceivably dumb down the playing characteristics.  But, then again, a designer also has the option to refuse the project in the first place, perhaps leaving the job to a less skilled practitioner who may create something that is undesirable to play anyway and thus destined to fail on its own accord, or perhaps another strong designer would take the job, create something wonderful, and the golf is successful, in spite of the weddings.
 
Second is whether wedding facilities at golf courses divert monies away from the golf course, including both it's design and maintenance budget.  This unquestionably happens, but this might just be a the scapegoat taking the blame for other poor decisions.  Consider Riviera Country Club in Pacific Palisades, CA.  They have top notch dining facilities, a hotel, a well-used tennis club, and play host to a myriad of weddings and receptions in their over-the-top, exorbitantly expensive clubhouse.  They also have an above average, to great, golf course.  Yet they are not collapsing, and I would think that they are not the exception that proves the rule; there are many others out there.  Granted that they probably derive some form of income by hosting an annual PGA Tour event, but more than this, they know their clientele.  They are located in one of the wealthiest areas of America and sell themselves to that crowd.  Conversely, when a developer in a part of the world with less resources tries the same thing, the chance for success decreases, almost exponentially.  It is not the weddings, or the tennis, or the golf by themselves, but possibly just uninformed, or misinformed decisions on the part of a developer who didn't finish his homework. 

Rather than assuming that weddings were bringing the place down and that a "golf only" facility would have been successful, it is equally as likely that NOTHING had a chance for success at that time and at that place.



   
...to admit my mistakes most frankly, or to say simply what I believe to be necessary for the defense of what I have written, without introducing the explanation of any new matter so as to avoid engaging myself in endless discussion from one topic to another.     
               -Rene Descartes

Bill Brightly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Relationship of GCA to the wedding industry in the USA?
« Reply #10 on: July 19, 2010, 10:43:13 AM »
Weddings and golf cart revenues are the dirty little addictions of most US country clubs. Try doing a budget without them...

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Relationship of GCA to the wedding industry in the USA?
« Reply #11 on: July 19, 2010, 10:53:01 AM »
Weddings and golf cart revenues are the dirty little addictions of most US country clubs. Try doing a budget without them...

Bill:

That is precisely the backwards thinking that gets everyone in trouble.  You only need the weddings in your budget because your clubhouse is too damned big and the golf course can't pay for it.  If you hadn't built it in the first place, you wouldn't need the weddings.

Mike Demetriou

Re: Relationship of GCA to the wedding industry in the USA?
« Reply #12 on: July 19, 2010, 10:56:27 AM »
The Golf Club at Newcastle (WA), for example. It is a fantastic place to hold weddings, with its outstanding views and a lovely facility. Too bad, the golf is absolute snorefest.

Ditto Arcadia Bluffs.

archie_struthers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Relationship of GCA to the wedding industry in the USA?
« Reply #13 on: July 19, 2010, 11:07:28 AM »
 ;D ;) 8)

As someone who had lots of experience building a wedding business that is symbiotic to the golf course remember the margins are slimmer and you better be real good to make it work ....it is not a panacea

From a GCA standpoint ...a lot of nice flowers and a gazebo on th epremise may offend some purists but it can be fair ly seamless with good planning

Carl Rogers

Re: Relationship of GCA to the wedding industry in the USA?
« Reply #14 on: July 19, 2010, 11:25:37 AM »
Chattanooga Golf & CC in Chattanooga, TN had my wife's high school reunion last month.  The course is an old Ross that has been 'restored'.  Very attractive course on the banks and bluffs overlooking the Tennessee River.  A thread a while back elaborated.  Regret that a lightning storm cancelled a planned round.

Wife enjoyed it and thus I enjoyed it.

The course and clubhouse is clearly where the old money of the town hangs.  As a once every 5 year event, the facility, in the mode of the old Pre WW1 Manor House, was great and MEMORABLE.  Overhead a tough sell even if I could afford it.

Anthony Gray

Re: Relationship of GCA to the wedding industry in the USA?
« Reply #15 on: July 19, 2010, 11:37:06 AM »


  I've never been married at a golf course.

  Anthony


Mike Demetriou

Re: Relationship of GCA to the wedding industry in the USA?
« Reply #16 on: July 19, 2010, 11:58:00 AM »
I got married before I "discovered" GCA. And so the course I was married on, a mid-70s Nicklaus design, was a Doak 3.

Were I to get married today, I'd strive for a much better course.

Bruce Katona

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Relationship of GCA to the wedding industry in the USA?
« Reply #17 on: July 19, 2010, 12:34:43 PM »
I'm surprised Adrain has not yet opined on this topic.

 For a facility to properly do an indoor wedding you need to be able to handle 175- 200 guests, with a dance floor and dais.  The kitchen can always handle the meals, even if portions of the meal/appetisers done ahead of time. If you can't seat up to 200, your members will not use the facility for large parties.

Weddings/parties are booked at private clubs to limit the loss on the F&B line of a club and minimize additional assessments or monthly minimums, not to actually turn a profit.  At the end of the day, after all is paid for net profit margin on F&B is 12%, if you do everything properly.  Labor costs are the big ticket item, not cost of goods (food and liquer costs).

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Relationship of GCA to the wedding industry in the USA?
« Reply #18 on: July 19, 2010, 12:39:25 PM »
Bruce,
Do you think that an over-reliance on weddings have an effect on GCA?

----------------------
I think what Bruce said has a lot of truth to it.  If so, why do golf clubs spend so much time and money on F&B if it doesn't advance the club's reason for being:  Golf!

Anthony Gray

Re: Relationship of GCA to the wedding industry in the USA?
« Reply #19 on: July 19, 2010, 12:41:08 PM »
I got married before I "discovered" GCA. And so the course I was married on, a mid-70s Nicklaus design, was a Doak 3.

Were I to get married today, I'd strive for a much better course.

  Again......the positive influence of GCA to the world shines. The question is CAN YOU MARRY A 7 AT A DOAK 8 OR HIGHER? What happens if the course rating is higher than your brides? Is that an insult to her? What is the proper edicate?

  Anthony

 

Bill Brightly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Relationship of GCA to the wedding industry in the USA?
« Reply #20 on: July 19, 2010, 12:51:51 PM »
Weddings and golf cart revenues are the dirty little addictions of most US country clubs. Try doing a budget without them...

Bill:

That is precisely the backwards thinking that gets everyone in trouble.  You only need the weddings in your budget because your clubhouse is too damned big and the golf course can't pay for it.  If you hadn't built it in the first place, you wouldn't need the weddings.

I don't disagree, Tom. But let's assume that you have been newly appointed to the board of directors at a very good, very old country club.  The clubhouse was built 75 years ago by your great grandfather's buddies and your father's buddies added on to it in the 1980's...It is built...When they hand you last year's budget, you see that they held 16 weddings and 30 lesser private events, generating $750,000 in gross profit. What is your advice, tear it down and save the men's grill?
« Last Edit: July 19, 2010, 12:55:49 PM by Bill Brightly »

Brad Wilbur

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Relationship of GCA to the wedding industry in the USA?
« Reply #21 on: July 19, 2010, 01:00:52 PM »
Best wedding occurance at golf course I've seen:  Trophy Lake outside Seattle had a wedding one day we were there playing:  The whole wedding party were golfers and they were playing before the ceremony.  It looked like everyone was having a great time on the course, and seemed like a match made in (golf) heaven.

Worst wedding occurance at golf course I've seen: one day after playing, I took a shower and was toweling off, while the guys in the wedding ceremony were (hiding out?) in the men's locker room.  In walked the bride-to -be to tell them what she wanted them to do.  I guess the sign that said "men" on the door didn't apply to her.  This didn't seem to be a match made in any sort of heaven.

SL_Solow

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Relationship of GCA to the wedding industry in the USA?
« Reply #22 on: July 19, 2010, 01:05:47 PM »
Bill;  That is one of the 2 interesting questions.  If a club already has a large clubhouse designed to hold major events and is therefore stuck with the overhead, properly priced weddings and other large gatherings can help defray the costs.  However, when a new facility is being built or an older facility is considering renovation, it is critical to make a rationale decision regarding the likely use of the clubhouse and the built in operational costs.  At our club, in more prosperous times, several members felt out clubhouse was not "upscale " enough and that we were losing wedding business from members.  Some of us convinced the club that the costs of a rebuild or renovation and the resulting increased overhead would not justify revenues gained from a few larger parties a year.  I believe we have benefitted many times over from the club's decision to follow that advice.

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Relationship of GCA to the wedding industry in the USA?
« Reply #23 on: July 19, 2010, 01:14:00 PM »
SL-Solow,  Very well said.

I wonder how many "in the black" clubs went crazy and built a new clubhouse during the real-estate bubble only to find themselves deep in red ink today with zero possibility of doing work on their golf course.

JC Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Relationship of GCA to the wedding industry in the USA?
« Reply #24 on: July 19, 2010, 07:22:46 PM »
Well, in defense of brides out there, some golf courses are better as a wedding site than for golf - The Golf Club at Newcastle (WA), for example. It is a fantastic place to hold weddings, with its outstanding views and a lovely facility. Too bad, the golf is absolute snorefest (and they have 36 holes of it!).

I've got a great story of an almost great round at Newcastle in Seattle.  Bill Russell (who is a member there) was looking to get out for an afternoon round.  My brother and I were playing as a two-some and were on the first tee.  Russell rolls up and asks the starter if he can get out.  The starter offers to pair him up with us and Russell takes one look at us and says to the starter "is there anyone on the other course?", the starter says "no" and off he went!
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.