Would TOC be economically viable if built today?

[Bryan Icenhower]

Stripping aways it's history, and building upon several threads regarding TOC, it makes me wonder …

You’d be crucified … the liability issues around shared fairways, double greens and of course driving over the hotel.  Could you find BOTH an archie and an owner that is willing to take on the liability issues from three constituents – players, general public on road, and other land owners?  Would someone be willing to underwrite it as-is and at what cost? 

Not everyone likes TOC … realistically, for the vast majority of those that make the pilgrimage, it’s more about the history and homage than the course itself (this of course is from my US based opnion).  If it weren’t for the history, would there be enough play?

Top 5 indicators of a quality golf facility … has none of the 5/5a mentioned that the Greg Tallmen mentions that the general public looks for.  Would the quirkiness appeal to enough of people to turn a profit?

[John Moore II]

I think it could work out, BUT, it would have to be bigger. Meaning wider. The reason I say wider is to reduce the likely hood of a ball hitting someone in another fairway. And the greens may have to be wider as well, but not necessarily. Most of the rest could remain the same. The hotel and the road would be a tough sell, the hotel tougher than the road because of liability issues. My course has a maintenance road on the course; it is played as OB even though it goes through the course, I think it should be played as integral part of the course. And certainly if a course were designed like that as a private course, it would be a completely different matter, the safety aspect wouldn't be as critical.

[Greg Tallman]

I believe it would be a difficult sell. It could be viable as part of a multi course resort facility. As a stand alone public access course I believe it would struggle. I imagine one would need to be creative in the marketing and operation of such a facillity and whileheartedly embrace the history of the game and make it an integral part of the golf experience at the facility.

It would be fun to try and very rewarding if it could be made to fly.

[John Moore II]

I believe it would be a difficult sell. It could be viable as part of a multi course resort facility. As a stand alone public access course I believe it would struggle. I imagine one would need to be creative in the marketing and operation of such a facillity and whileheartedly embrace the history of the game and make it an integral part of the golf experience at the facility.

It would be fun to try and very rewarding if it could be made to fly.

A course like TOC would be a great addition to a place like Bandon, Pinehurst, Kiawah or Pebble Beach resorts (or any other multi-course resort/facility I may have missed) as an add-on course. People could play the 'traditional' courses at those locations and also the TOC homage course. I think in a situation like that, especially at a place like Bandon where all the courses are of the minimal/'old school' type it would be a better fit as most people who go there know a thing or two about golf courses and would 'get it.'

[Tim_Cronin]

Bryan, I assume you mean not as a replica, but dreamed up and presented to us today as brand new. The potential owner, whether public or private, would probably sound like one half of an old Bob Newhart phone routine:

"You're going to build a golf course, and you plan to have double greens, plus two holes that cross over each other, a handful of double fairways, bunkers you can't always see from the tee, and on the next to last hole, you want a dogleg par-4 around the hotel we're going to build? And the road between the hotel and the hole will be in play? Is that about it?

"Oh, and it's really played in reverse most of the year?

"Say, is this a rib? Is this Charlie in accounting again?"

I don't think it would ever get off the ground.

[Adrian_Stiff]

No is the easiest UK answer. It breaks far too many rules and laws in the form of TOC. Hybrid versions of the best bits could be achieved though and in many respects architects interpret those bits into their designs.... the bad bits your just not going to see anyone design a hole over a hotel or train station.

[Sean_A]

I wrote it on another thread, no chance.  TOC is a meld of three main elements which play off each other in a unique way; the city and its people, its history and its architecture.  I would even argue that all three elements are equal parts in TOC's greatness.  Even stripping away all of TOC's fame (which is quite frankly impossible), the relationship of the course and city (and its people), how they intersect and interact is one of the vital organs of TOC.  It just can't be repeated for many reasons with safety issues being near the top of the list.  Just look at the rather straight forward 18th - even that mundane hole by TOC standards wouldn't get built as is, but how it is built is what makes the hole great.  Now we move into double greens (which I believe are also vital to the course identity and playing characteristic), shared and crossing fairways and blind shots - archies don't have the stomach for this sort of thing let alone trying to interact with a city and its people.  It wouldn't even get past dream stage - before the customer is even considered.

Ciao  

[Tom_Doak]

I would just like to point out that The Old Course IS a municipal golf course and it seems to have a good track record of viability.

[jeffwarne]

Stripping aways it's history, and building upon several threads regarding TOC, it makes me wonder …

You’d be crucified … the liability issues around shared fairways, double greens and of course driving over the hotel.  Could you find BOTH an archie and an owner that is willing to take on the liability issues from three constituents – players, general public on road, and other land owners?  Would someone be willing to underwrite it as-is and at what cost? 

Not everyone likes TOC … realistically, for the vast majority of those that make the pilgrimage, it’s more about the history and homage than the course itself (this of course is from my US based opnion).  If it weren’t for the history, would there be enough play?

Top 5 indicators of a quality golf facility … has none of the 5/5a mentioned that the Greg Tallmen mentions that the general public looks for.  Would the quirkiness appeal to enough of people to turn a profit?

Like any other other project, it wuld depend on what it cost to build + the land, where it was, what it cost to maintain, and the demand for muni  golf in that area, and how well it was run

I've seen many munis that were packed all the time that were horrible architecture and completely run down
I've seen very good golf courses that were consistently empty

Like many quirky munis, my guess is if it was viable, the type of people that supported it would be people I would want to play golf with

[Bill_McBride]

There must be something going on if people literally from all over the world come and pay 130 quid, filling the tee sheet six days a week year round.  The locals get a year round card for the same amount more or less.  Attempts to rationalize TOC just make me chuckle.

So would it be economically viable if built today?  Depends on where I guess.

[Bruce Wellmon]

Dumb question.
In today's hi-tech digital world can a green, a hole, or a course for that matter, be digitally scanned to exactly duplicate the contours and dimensions?

[Richard Choi]

I would like to question why anyone believes you need to have crossing fairways to be like TOC. To me, emulating a great course like TOC does not mean that you have to copy everything, good AND bad. There is really no strategic reason for a crossing fairway and it not only causes liability issues but pace problems as well.

There are so many great qualities about TOC, why would you copy that part?

[Charlie Goerges]

Tim, that's a great mental image on the Bob Newhart phone sketch. I searched in vain to find a decent example, but found lots of other great Newhart stuff.

One phone sketch that kills me is when he's talking to Abe Lincoln on the phone. Just good humor!

[Adrian_Stiff]

Dumb question.
In today's hi-tech digital world can a green, a hole, or a course for that matter, be digitally scanned to exactly duplicate the contours and dimensions?

Bruce - Yes its possible to map and regrade to that map within 50mm ie two inches...thats enough to replicate IMO. This thread has lost its way a bit, as I saw it the safety issues and tolerance levels at TOC break modern guidelines, the dual fairways and options of different lines of play mean many holes cross or safe play not to lose a ball is left ie into the middle ...that can get dangerous sometimes and the aspects of blindness mean that a fatal or serious accident could render the blame on the architect for his lacking in care...so I think those bits an architect would not choose to do. Any golf course and it could be TOC in the future that suffers a serious accident or persistent problems and insurance claims may not be abe to reinsure if that occurs then the golf course would need to be designed. Who knows we might end up with TOC starting at 2 and finishing at 17 with two new holes made up by landfill out in the Eden.

[Anthony Gray]

  The Old Course IS being built today. Look how many holes are copied from TOC today if not eexact templates but in strategy.TOC is architecturally significant dispite its history.

  Anthony

 

[Don_Mahaffey]

A replica, no. A course that had the features, fun, and quirk, heck yes.
What I find funny is the question...like most of the crap being built today is economically viable...guess again.

I'd take my chances in a heartbeat with a course that was similar to TOC...as long as I was taking care of the place.

[Greg Tallman]

I would just like to point out that The Old Course IS a municipal golf course and it seems to have a good track record of viability.

I took it to mean in the United States.

[Sean_A]

I would like to question why anyone believes you need to have crossing fairways to be like TOC. To me, emulating a great course like TOC does not mean that you have to copy everything, good AND bad. There is really no strategic reason for a crossing fairway and it not only causes liability issues but pace problems as well.

There are so many great qualities about TOC, why would you copy that part?

Richard

IMO all the elements of TOC come together in a wondeful soup which when taken as a whole, nobody would dare copy.  Some of these elements which go a long way toward the charm of TOC such as crossing fairways, double greens (interacting with other players on the course - its not just an economical design issue), close proximity and interaction - including designwise - with the city (now we can have exchanges with folks not on the course) would not be replicated today.  These elements are important in what makes TOC TOC.  These freaky things sound bad on paper, but at TOC they are completely normal and essential characteristics of the course.  Sure, someone can build a TOC using what they think are the important elements of the course, but my contention is all the elements are important so one wouldn't really be building a TOC.  In effect, he would be building a Mac D version of what exists at St Andrews.  Some would think it is better, some would think it is worse, but all would know it isn't TOC by a long shot

Ciao

[Wayne_Kozun]

Would any course be economically viable if built today

The last I checked they weren't building many courses at all today, especially since almost all courses depend on adjacent real estate to be economically viable.  And except for George Peper's place and a couple of others, there isn't much real estate adjacent to TOC.

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