Weiskopf comment

[JC Jones]

It was kind of funny to hear him talk about how much he loves St. Andrews, since he builds the flattest greens of any architect working today.

I'm pretty sure you are completely wrong with this comment.

However, to the extent that he builds flat greens, I heard him say more than once this weekend that "you'd be hung by your toe nails" (or strung up, or any other saying regarding painful death) "if you built greens like this in the US."

Perhaps he is client or consumer driven?

[TEPaul]

JC:

In your last post it seems to me you are sort of contradicting yourself even if you did punctuate it with a question.  

[JC Jones]

JC:

In your last post it seems to me you are sort of contradicting yourself even if you did punctuate it with a question.  

Sir Dionysus,

I think you need help with your reading comprehension. 

Mr. Doak is wrong in his comment that Weiskopf builds the flattest greens of any architect working today.  I then gave a potential rationale for why, TO THE EXTENT that he builds flat greens, he may do so. 

[TEPaul]

'Sir Dionysus,
I think you need help with your reading comprehension."

JC:

Do You?

Perhaps what you should do first is review your entire Post #25.  



"Mr. Doak is wrong in his comment that Weiskopf builds the flattest greens of any architect working today."


Is that right? Do you think you know more about Weiskopf greens than Doak does, and if so what is the evidence of it? Show me; show the evidence of that; show any of us; show the damn "courtroom" counselor?

  

"I then gave a potential rationale for why, TO THE EXTENT that he builds flat greens, he may do so."


Did You? You gave A POTENTIAL   rationale (for why, TO THE EXTENT that he builds flat greens, he may do so)?  

Look, JC, don't try to play petty legal classroom or courtroom games on here with us on the subject of golf course architecture because it's bound not to work at least and it's transparent at most, or perhaps vaguely one and the same.

So, don't do it, unless or of course you are trying to imitate or mimic the MO of an architectural/intellectual reprobate and perhaps semi-failed lawyer such as David Moriarty on here!  

[Greg Tallman]

Greg:

Not really. It's just that I've been around a long time and I remember everything about Tom Weiskopf over all the years of his entire career.

And in my life I have studied at least four things intensely---eg golf, golf architecture, the Rules of golf, particularly its history, and physiognomy.

Of them all physiognomy has been by far the most important!

I know Tom's reputation and I have seen him at his worst, albeit rather briefly. That said I have never thought that this carried over into his commentary where I actually have found him to be rather self effacing (see comment from 1986 Masters when asked what Jack was thinking at a critical moment).

Even though I have seen the bad side of Tom I can't help but think he is, at heart, a good person. As I have said before listening to him talk about Ben Hogan is like listening to an 8 year old talk about what he wants for Christmas.

[Dale Jackson]

It was kind of funny to hear him talk about how much he loves St. Andrews, since he builds the flattest greens of any architect working today.

I'm pretty sure you are completely wrong with this comment.

However, to the extent that he builds flat greens, I heard him say more than once this weekend that "you'd be hung by your toe nails" (or strung up, or any other saying regarding painful death) "if you built greens like this in the US."

Perhaps he is client or consumer driven?

JC, TD can speak for himself but I have heard TW acknowledge he does build extremely flat greens, I believe he said he aims to never go beyond 2% grade.  This was at a Golf Digest meeting about 3 years ago and TD was also in attendance.  Perhaps his comments are from that meeting.

I have played a handful of TW courses and saw nothing to contradict his statement, perhaps the experience of others is at TW/JM courses?

[Greg Tallman]

It was kind of funny to hear him talk about how much he loves St. Andrews, since he builds the flattest greens of any architect working today.

I'm pretty sure you are completely wrong with this comment.

However, to the extent that he builds flat greens, I heard him say more than once this weekend that "you'd be hung by your toe nails" (or strung up, or any other saying regarding painful death) "if you built greens like this in the US."

Perhaps he is client or consumer driven?

JC, TD can speak for himself but I have heard TW acknowledge he does build extremely flat greens, I believe he said he aims to never go beyond 2% grade.  This was at a Golf Digest meeting about 3 years ago and TD was also in attendance.  Perhaps his comments are from that meeting.

I have played a handful of TW courses and saw nothing to contradict his statement, perhaps the experience of others is at TW/JM courses?

There are´plenty of areas in our greens that exceed that grade.

[Chris Shaida]

A couple of years ago during the opening day walk thru of his course in bid sky Spanish peaks, I thought his comments about his architectural decisions were quite interesting.  And the greens there aren't particularly flat --but maybe the high altitude affected him.  (for lots of god reasons Spanish Peaks won't get much mention on this site but if anyone wants to see it for yourself and form your own judgment  send me a pm, could easily be arranged)

[JC Jones]

'Sir Dionysus,
I think you need help with your reading comprehension."

JC:

Do You?

Perhaps what you should do first is review your entire Post #25.  



"Mr. Doak is wrong in his comment that Weiskopf builds the flattest greens of any architect working today."


Is that right? Do you think you know more about Weiskopf greens than Doak does, and if so what is the evidence of it? Show me; show the evidence of that; show any of us; show the damn "courtroom" counselor?

  

"I then gave a potential rationale for why, TO THE EXTENT that he builds flat greens, he may do so."


Did You? You gave A POTENTIAL   rationale (for why, TO THE EXTENT that he builds flat greens, he may do so)?  

Look, JC, don't try to play petty legal classroom or courtroom games on here with us on the subject of golf course architecture because it's bound not to work at least and it's transparent at most, or perhaps vaguely one and the same.

So, don't do it, unless or of course you are trying to imitate or mimic the MO of an architectural/intellectual reprobate and perhaps semi-failed lawyer such as David Moriarty on here!  

Mr. Bacchus, Sir:

Your post is a feeble attempt to obfuscate. 

At least you finally recognized that two, independent, statements were made in my post #25.  Perhaps I should I always hold your hand and walk you through posts like I do my 6 year old daughter with chapter books.

Now, to the extent you addressed my post, which is barely if at all, let me address yours.

1)  Does Doak know more about Weiskopf greens than I do?  If so, let him show the evidence.  Do you see how ridiculous that argument is?  Sir Doak makes a generalized statement and you lap it up as gospel as if you were sitting at the feet of a prophet.  His statement is completely unprovable and that's why HE is wrong.  How many Weiskopf greens has he played?  How many Weiskopf courses has he seen?  Has he seen every modern course built in the last 20 years so as to make a legitimate comparison?  How could he POSSIBLY know that Weiskopf builds the flattest greens of any architect today?  For God sakes man, use your brain and stop displaying your obvious butt-boy-ness.   Lets say that Mr. Weiskopf himself said that he builds the flattest greens of any architect today.  How the hell could HE prove that statement.  He can't.  It would be marketing at its best.  Do you see the problems here? 

2)  You must spend your days in the barn watching cable "news" programming; taking notes on how NOT to make a coherent argument.  My point regarding the statement he made (that being the statement regarding certain death if greens like St. Andrews were built in the US) was, and is, entirely separate from my point regarding Saint Doak of Architecture being wrong.  It was, and is, entirely speculative and acknowledged by me as such when I said PERHAPS.  I have no idea why Mr. Weiskopf builds the greens he does but what he said (FROM HIS MOUTH AND BROADCAST TO MILLIONS) is at least somewhat of an indication on his architecture philosophy.

So, until you can put together the answers to my questions or put forth a quote from Weiskopf regarding green building philosophy, I suggest go to the book store and pick up a dictionary and a 4th grade workbook on reading comprehension.  Either that or READ the posts before you respond.

[Tom_Doak]

JC Jones:

I have not seen a new Weiskopf course for many years, so it's possible he has changed his style.  I saw six or eight Weiskopf / Morrish designs in the 1980's and 1990's and I will stand by my statement that they were the flattest greens I've ever seen.  Two different superintendents of those courses told me that he was using 1/2 % [that is ONE HALF PERCENT] slopes in many of his hole location areas.  He would sometimes have wild contours spilling off the edges of the green into trouble, or occasionally build a wild green with a big transition area, but even those were essentially two flat greens in one.  Forest Highlands was the only exception I saw among his courses, and that's why I liked it best.

I would suggest that this preference was in keeping with his golf game ... his strength was always tee to green play and he rarely talked much about putting or chipping or recovery play when I spent time with him.


Tom P:

There are certainly plenty of people out there who Mr. Weiskopf rubbed the wrong way.  It must have something to do with the name Tom!!  If you were hanging out with USGA people, you probably saw the worst of him, because he couldn't stand a lot of those guys.  One of the funniest stories I have ever listened to was Weiskopf's description of a USGA marshal at some event getting up on his toes sitting on his little monopod seat as Tom stepped to the tee, so he would be ready to line up where his ball crossed the margin of the hazard the guy was responsible for.  He had lots of run-ins with officialdom over the years, to the point where he thought they treated him differently than some other players.

[JC Jones]

Thomas Lafite Rothschild Paul,

Now that Mr. Doak has "presented the evidence" as to why his initial statement was wrong, do you care to withdraw your ridiculous posts and/or pronounce me King?

[Tom_Doak]

Okay, JC, it was an error.  I should have said Weiskopf HAS BUILT some of the flattest greens of any architect today.  That statement would be correct.

[Peter Pallotta]

Here's a bit of useless and off-point trivia, offered in case some were inclined to mock TE's study of physiognomy. Frederick Nietsche recounts a story he claims is true, as follows: one day long ago, a wandering physiognomist found himself in Athens and ran into Socrates.  He took one look at the famous old philosopher and exclaimed: "Your soul contains all things vile and disgusting".  To which Socrates calmly replied: "You know me, sir". 

But from what I can tell, TW does not bear any resemblance to Socrates, nor does he often engage in the Socratic method (but who does these days, eh?).   

Peter

[JC Jones]

Here's a bit of useless and off-point trivia, offered in case some were inclined to mock TE's study of physiognomy. Frederick Nietsche recounts a story he claims is true, as follows: one day long ago, a wandering physiognomist found himself in Athens and ran into Socrates.  He took one look at the famous old philosopher and exclaimed: "Your soul contains all things vile and disgusting".  To which Socrates calmly replied: "You know me, sir". 

But from what I can tell, TW does not bear any resemblance to Socrates, nor does he often engage in the Socratic method (but who does these days, eh?).   

Peter

Mr. Pallotta,

Can you explain why everytime I see a post of yours I hear this in my head:

"Do you like Peter Pallotta, getting caught in the rain.  If you're not into yoga, do you have half a brain"?

With regards to your last question, though, the answer would be: really good law professors

[Eric Smith]

Mr. Pallotta,

Can you explain why everytime I see a post of yours I hear this in my head:

"Do you like Peter Pallotta, getting caught in the rain.  If you're not into yoga, do you have half a brain"?

JC Jones climbed in the cabin,
JC Jones orders in his hand,
JC Jones leanin' out the window taking a trip to the Promised Land.
 

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

I enjoyed Weskopf as well, but speny most of my time with the International commentary on Direct tv with Peter Allis and co...THE WIT IS SIMPLY SUPERB...Allis is a national teasure as far as I am comcerned..off the cuff humour and stories...great
Ken Brown is alomost as funny and Jessie James as dry as they come...the best coverage on TV.

[TEPaul]

Life can be quite odd which should actually not be considered particularly mysterious on the old Mystery Scale. Socrates is considered to have been a brilliant mind and a brilliant thinker but actually he was dumber than a stump and so he asked a ton of basically pointless but seemingly leading questions. Therefore it is true to say that Tom MacWood, and very likely David Moriarty too, must have studied Socrates or at least some Socratic knock-off.

[TEPaul]

"Thomas Lafite Rothschild Paul,

Now that Mr. Doak has "presented the evidence" as to why his initial statement was wrong, do you care to withdraw your ridiculous posts and/or pronounce me King?  "



No Sir, I do not. To me the act of verbalishness is merely the act and art of communication whether or not some Socratic Mrs Grundy deems his spoken or written word right or wrong. I know precisely what Doak said and meant to say and it was of no diff pre-correction or post-correction. I know this due to my extreme knowledge of physiognomy (which I learned in the bars of NYC, BTW) and my putter!

[TEPaul]

JC Jones, Counselor Extraordinaire:

I just finished reading your post #33! You are a true beauty, my friend. After reading it I found myself flat on the floor simply roaring with laughter. THAT post is the best damn imitation of David Moriarty imaginable!!

You're my Hero!

[Sean_A]

Speaking of comments - didn't Jack once say about Calcavecchia:

"High tech equipment, low tech talent."

I am assuming there is a running joke of some sort for this zinger.  Does anybody have a back story on this line?

Ciao

[Will MacEwen]

Speaking of comments - didn't Jack once say about Calcavecchia:

"High tech equipment, low tech talent."

I am assuming there is a running joke of some sort for this zinger.  Does anybody have a back story on this line?

Ciao

Calc has been all Ping his entire career, and was one of the more prominent users of the legendary square grooves.

I recall Calc telling a story that he stopped a ball dead coming out of the rough.  Calc thought it hit and old pitchmark or something, Nicklaus was commenting and thought it was the grooves.  Jack's comment was "that, to me, is cheating" or somesuch.

[TEPaul]

Will MacEwen:


Yes, I have a backstory on Calc. Apparently before he married he had a condo at a golf course around Palm Beach and just for the helluv-it he would open the glass sliders about six inches and then stand back in his livingroom and launch 4 irons out onto the course through that six inch opening. Apparently he never did have to hire a window replacer either.

Maybe Nicklaus doesn't consider that talent but I sure do.

[Jason McNamara]

Life can be quite odd which should actually not be considered particularly mysterious on the old Mystery Scale. Socrates is considered to have been a brilliant mind and a brilliant thinker but actually he was dumber than a stump and so he asked a ton of basically pointless but seemingly leading questions. Therefore it is true to say that [usual target #1], and very likely [usual target #2] too, must have studied Socrates or at least some Socratic knock-off.

Well Tom, I've asked this a couple times, and you have yet to address this, but I will try again.

Neither of the people in question has posted on this thread.  Is it not enough to go at it hammer-and-tong in the latest Pennsylvania food-throwing thread?  Is there some belief you have that you'll win [sic] if you make digs at others on a thread they might not be reading?

I think the site is great, and as it pertains to this thread I hope you'll tell us more about Weiskopf. 

But I can't stand the way you wander over and piss on a thread any time you feel like it.

[TEPaul]

And that is your very good right of course, Jason. I am just a wander and a pisser, and not an all around pleaser, I guess. For some reason I suppose I have always been sort of into all around GOLFCLUBATLAS.com UNITY and I don't really make that many distinctions between threads and posters! 


You say you hope I will tell you all more about Weiskopf? Well, I'm sorry but I don't have any more to tell about him other than I'm aware he has always been a pretty complex thinker prone to all kinds of odd outbursts and statements and such in the past. They say the wiring in his head may've been sort of off that sometimes results in his head seriously overheating. I haven't seen him in quite sometime but it appears that is true as I noticed that apparently most to all his hair has burned off. Frankly, it took me some time to even realize the guy sitting between Tirico and Zinger or Strange was in fact Terrible Tom Weiskopf, the man who can go ballistic with a fellow competitor who marks his golf ball with a quarter!  

[Greg Tallman]

And that is your very good right of course, Jason. I am just a wander and a pisser, and not an all around pleaser, I guess. For some reason I suppose I have always been sort of into all around GOLFCLUBATLAS.com UNITY and I don't really make that many distinctions between threads and posters! 


You say you hope I will tell you all more about Weiskopf? Well, I'm sorry but I don't have any more to tell about him other than I'm aware he has always been a pretty complex thinker prone to all kinds of odd outbursts and statements and such in the past. They say the wiring in his head may've been sort of off that sometimes results in his head seriously overheating. I haven't seen him in quite sometime but it appears that is true as I noticed that apparently most to all his hair has burned off. Frankly, it took me some time to even realize the guy sitting between Tirico and Zinger or Strange was in fact Terrible Tom Weiskopf, the man who can go ballistic with a fellow competitor who marks his golf ball with a quarter!  

That was a sad display to be certain. He is a complex man no doubt.