Not everyone likes TOC, but this kind of thing surprises me.

[Sean_A]

I have never beed more seduced by a course in my life as I have been watching the shots played into and around the greens this week. Absolutely wonderful.

I agree with Greg.  We saw all manner of shots and the course on Saturday evening looked better than any other course I have seen on tv, but quite some way.  And this was despite the watering which must have been taking place these past four weeks.  It seems no matter what is done to TOC it always rises to the occassion.

Ciao 

[Chris DeNigris]

I think we're looking at this in completely the wrong way.

I would be totally shocked (and incredibly disappointed) if anywhere near a majority of US (I can't really comment on other country norms) golfers understood, appreciated or enjoyed the awesomeness  and uniqueness of TOC.

It's too esoteric.

Links golf in general is a foreign concept to most American golfers. Most like what they know and they don't know anything like TOC.

To think that any significant percentage of the uninitiated masses would "get it" is about as unlikely as an up and down from the Road Hole bunker.

[RSLivingston_III]

I think we're looking at this in completely the wrong way.

I would be totally shocked (and incredibly disappointed) if anywhere near a majority of US (I can't really comment on other country norms) golfers understood, appreciated or enjoyed the awesomeness  and uniqueness of TOC.

It's too esoteric.

Links golf in general is a foreign concept to most American golfers. Most like what they know and they don't know anything like TOC.

To think that any significant percentage of the uninitiated masses would "get it" is about as unlikely as an up and down from the Road Hole bunker.

Unfortunately, people know what they have been told, and for how many years were we hearing how bad and wrong links golf was. Many  of the times during telecasts showing a tournament at said courses.

[Ken Moum]

Ken,

I do trust that you'll do the other forum right by us and post our comments for St. Andrews. 

Actually, there are plenty of folks over there defending the old girl's honor.

I just thought that this was an interesting addition to Greg Tallman's post about what people want to see.

[Tom_Doak]

The summer I caddied in St. Andrews, the caddie yard was still right behind the 18th green, right where tour buses would drop off a load of Americans to play.  It was always fun to see the shock on their faces.  Most of them had HEARD about St. Andrews forever but they had never really watched much of it on TV, so they had no idea what to expect; but that first look was clearly much different than what they had imagined it to be.

About half of them got back on the bus just as perplexed as when they got off.  The other half loved it:  some more for the atmosphere than for the actual golf, others because they stayed out of trouble and were able to score better than they expected.  [It's about the only championship course I can think of where you have a chance to beat your handicap.]

The most amazing part of it at the end was to listen to them and realize they still had no idea what they'd just seen.  Very few could remember one hole from the next, apart from 1, 17 and 18, and maybe #11.  If they'd had to pass a test on it, they would all have scored below 50%.  That is probably the most perplexing thing about The Old Course ... it utterly fails the GOLF DIGEST "memorability" test, for anyone except a golf course architect or shaper who would be drooling over all the features of the holes.

[Ken Moum]

Ken,

Did you responded to those guys on the other forum?

I did, but I didn't really try to change his mind.  All my rounds in Scotland were played with another couple from here who were excited to go when I proposed the trip, but both of them bitched for two weeks about anything and everything--from too-tight lies, to caddy fees, to B&B costs, to the lack of ice cubes... ad infinitum.

Whenever I tried to get them to straighten up, they both said they were having a great time... and promptly went back to complaining.

The both HATED Brora, and loved Nairn.

In the end, he admitted that he was happy as hell to have been there, but realized he liked American golf the way it is. FWIW, he plays a county course here designed by an idiot, because it's got fluffy zoysia fairways and flat greens that hold a shot.

That experience made me realize that trying to "convert" someone like him was a waste of time.

K

[Dan Herrmann]

Come on!  Who among us (other than our Scottish friends) didn't get TOC at first sight?  She's a beautiful thing that grows on you over time until at last you understand what she's all about.

Comparing TOC to the Reno-Tahoe PGA event's course (which was quite beautiful in its own right) was a first-round knockout for TOC.

Another reason I always LOVE seeing TOC is to try to discover move features that influenced Hanse's design at my club.  

It's definitely very high on my must visit list.

[RSLivingston_III]

The summer I caddied in St. Andrews, the caddie yard was still right behind the 18th green, right where tour buses would drop off a load of Americans to play.  It was always fun to see the shock on their faces.  Most of them had HEARD about St. Andrews forever but they had never really watched much of it on TV, so they had no idea what to expect; but that first look was clearly much different than what they had imagined it to be.

About half of them got back on the bus just as perplexed as when they got off.  The other half loved it:  some more for the atmosphere than for the actual golf, others because they stayed out of trouble and were able to score better than they expected.  [It's about the only championship course I can think of where you have a chance to beat your handicap.]

The most amazing part of it at the end was to listen to them and realize they still had no idea what they'd just seen.  Very few could remember one hole from the next, apart from 1, 17 and 18, and maybe #11.  If they'd had to pass a test on it, they would all have scored below 50%.  That is probably the most perplexing thing about The Old Course ... it utterly fails the GOLF DIGEST "memorability" test, for anyone except a golf course architect or shaper who would be drooling over all the features of the holes.

I hate to admit it, but I still have a hard time remembering some of the par fours – until I saw some images. And I have been fortunate to have played it more than 10 times.

[Chris DeNigris]

Ken- You know it's not wrong to not like links golf, mounded fairways and greens, brown grass, tight lies and 30 mph cross-winds...Just personal preference in a lot of cases. Not all these folks need or want to be converted.

Sometimes I like the fact that I do and they don't.

[Bill Brightly]

Ken,

Did you responded to those guys on the other forum?

I did, but I didn't really try to change his mind.  All my rounds in Scotland were played with another couple from here who were excited to go when I proposed the trip, but both of them bitched for two weeks about anything and everything--from too-tight lies, to caddy fees, to B&B costs, to the lack of ice cubes... ad infinitum.

Whenever I tried to get them to straighten up, they both said they were having a great time... and promptly went back to complaining.

The both HATED Brora, and loved Nairn.

In the end, he admitted that he was happy as hell to have been there, but realized he liked American golf the way it is. FWIW, he plays a county course here designed by an idiot, because it's got fluffy zoysia fairways and flat greens that hold a shot.

That experience made me realize that trying to "convert" someone like him was a waste of time.

K

Yeah, I know exactly what you mean. If you have to work too hard to explain it, the person you are talking to really doesn't want to learn to appreciate links golf, and that is fine. But hearing some of the nasty "pitch and putt" and "goat track" comments still stng.

[Philippe Binette]

I love the Old Course but..

If you come off the bus, step on the first and expect something... it is easy to understand why people don't like it.

It is an absolute waste of time and money to play it coming of the bus. walk it first, at least once, and then play it


For those who have only seen it on TV, you cannot judge the quality of the course, the size of the contours (the swale in front of 5 is 12 feet deep and the beauty of the course

[TEPaul]

For someone who studies old architecture and has been around a fair amount I have two real blanks on my architectural Dance Card---TOC and Pinehurst.

So, let me ask those who know it really well----probably Tom Doak or a few on here who come from there.

Assuming those greens are all in the same place they were up to 150 years ago, the question is how close were the next tees to those greens 150 years ago.

For a reason some may never suspect, I admit this is something of a trick question.

[Melvyn Morrow]

Links Golf was there in the beginning, it’s why we have golf, bunkers, bumps and dells. Utilising unused parcels of land of not much used except for sheep and when leased to a club it was cheap. The designs of the links courses utilised the wind and natural elements, also allowing many holes to play the opposite directions to the last in order to take full advantage of the elements for the purpose of offering the golfer a challenging course.

The Links course is the true golf course everything is just a copy.

Melvyn

[TEPaul]

"The most amazing part of it at the end was to listen to them and realize they still had no idea what they'd just seen.  Very few could remember one hole from the next, apart from 1, 17 and 18, and maybe #11.  If they'd had to pass a test on it, they would all have scored below 50%.  That is probably the most perplexing thing about The Old Course ... it utterly fails the GOLF DIGEST "memorability" test, for anyone except a golf course architect or shaper who would be drooling over all the features of the holes."



TOMD:


OOOOH-LaLa----you may've just hit on something fundamenatally important there!

Do you know when I first saw your Pacific Dunes I had somewhat the same sensation there. If you remember at one point during an evening I spoke with you about my sensation of not really knowing where I was on that golf course and you actually took a cocktail napkin and drew a quick stick sketch of the routing (I still have it).

Other than a few holes that seemed to be their own separate entitiy (individual hole "memorability"?) it seemed to me most of the golf course just felt like it melded and merged into one unified WHOLE somehow!

I think there may be something very important in this as with TOC!

Could it be something to do with the fact that you left so much of the natural vegetation on holes and between holes as still seems to exist with TOC?

 
 

[Richard Choi]

Is it wrong of me to love TOC from all the time I have played it on the computer? I feel like I know the course pretty well just playing it on the computer with all kinds of crazy winds from all directions. Even without having to hit real shots, it has always been one of my favorites just from my virtual experience.

[Bill_McBride]

For someone who studies old architecture and has been around a fair amount I have two real blanks on my architectural Dance Card---TOC and Pinehurst.

So, let me ask those who know it really well----probably Tom Doak or a few on here who come from there.

Assuming those greens are all in the same place they were up to 150 years ago, the question is how close were the next tees to those greens 150 years ago.

For a reason some may never suspect, I admit this is something of a trick question.

Did you see where the 18th tee was so close to the 17th green?

Regrettably the lengthening of TOC has required a number of 100 yard walks back to the next tee.  The visitor tees are in much closer proximity.

[John Moore II]

Is it wrong of me to love TOC from all the time I have played it on the computer? I feel like I know the course pretty well just playing it on the computer with all kinds of crazy winds from all directions. Even without having to hit real shots, it has always been one of my favorites just from my virtual experience.

No, it is not wrong to love TOC from just playing it on the computer. I think that is quite fun. Might actually be a good way to prepare for an actual round there since you can play a shot that you might presumably play in reality and see how it would bounce and play your round out accordingly. Of course that wouldn't last long, I suspect, but it would be fun to think out a plan like that.  Personally, I shot 39 over 18 holes on TOC on my Wii. I plan to reproduce that exactly once I do make a trip over there. 

[TEPaul]

"Did you see where the 18th tee was so close to the 17th green?"

Yes I did and it seems there isn't any other possible place to put it with more length. I guess you haven't yet figured out what the essential trick question is have you Billy Bob?

Actually the 17th and 18th may be the most perfect example on that golf course!

[Ken Moum]

"Did you see where the 18th tee was so close to the 17th green?"

Yes I did and it seems there isn't any other possible place to put it with more length. I guess you haven't yet figured out what the essential trick question is have you Billy Bob?

Actually the 17th and 18th may be the most perfect example on that golf course!

The trick question?

How about these definitions from ruleshistory.com?

• The teeing ground was defined in Rule 1 of the first written Rules of Golf, 1744, as being within one club length of the [previous] hole.
  Successive Rules codes have been in general agreement on the dimensions over the years; the teeing ground moving further away from the hole, and getting bigger:
• The Company of Golfers 1775 extended the area to between two and four club lengths, along with Edinburgh Burgess, Blackheath, and the Thistle. (St Andrews 1777 dimensions were between one and four club lengths until they conformed in 1812)
• Burntisland 1828, Blackheath 1828 and Burgess 1838: between 3 and 6 club lengths.
• Thistle Golf Club 1824 between two and six club lengths.
• Perth 1825 6-10 club lengths.
• R&A 1851 between four and six club lengths
• R&A 1858 between six and eight club lengths
• R&A 1875 between eight and twelve, and, additionally, "except where special ground has been marked by the Conservator of the Links, which shall be considered the ‘teeing ground,’ and the balls shall be teed within, and not in advance of, such marks".  This is the first mention of a teeing ground, and markers.
• R &A 1882 the teeing ground was denoted by markers alone, and the maximum depth of two club lengths was introduced.
• R &A 1891 The rectangular shape of the teeing ground is stipulated for the first time: a ball must not be teed in front of, nor on either side of, nor more than two club lengths behind the teeing markers.

Sooo.... 150 years ago, in 1860, the teeing ground at St. Andrews was between six and eight clublengths from the hole.

K

[Randy Thompson]

I did not read the entire thread, but its that time of year again, I will be hearing negatives for weeks and maybe months to come in relation to the open presentation. The average golfers in these parts just doesn´t get it and if you want to waste your time trying to educate them go for it!! I lost patients around ten years ago! The guy that recently published, Planet golf and Planet golf USA, just came out with an article rating the ten best architects in the history of the game including present day archtiects. Coores was rated three of all time and Doak four. Having them do one of their best works in South America would require attracting an international clientele in order to create a sucsess buis plan.The course and the presentation would go over 98% of golfers head, they would not get it and the course would recieve little local support! Sad but True! So while C&C and Doak´s influences and styles will continue to be increasingly seen in other archtiect works in the present and in the future, you won´t see that influence down here, it would be self destrutive unless tied in with some hugh marketing concept like the Olympics!

[TEPaul]

Ken Moum:

Good for you----very good for you. THAT was the trick question and you got the answer I envisioned!

And SO, considering that the 17th green was right where it is today 150 years ago-----actually the 17th green AND the Road Hole bunker is sometimes considered to be the FIRST example of intentional man made golf architecture for actual strategic architectural purposes (by Alan Roberston perhaps in 1848), then that would mean 150 plus years ago the tee for #18 would've been FARTHER BACK THAN IT IS TODAY (assuming the 18th green was also in the same place 150 years ago).

PS:
Please correct you last sentence from 105 years to read at least 150+ years in case some historic idiot on here like MacWood or Moriarty may actually pick it up and try to use it for historical purposes or to try to embarrass someone for making some trivial historical mistake!

[Sean_A]

Come on!  Who among us (other than our Scottish friends) didn't get TOC at first sight?  She's a beautiful thing that grows on you over time until at last you understand what she's all about.

Comparing TOC to the Reno-Tahoe PGA event's course (which was quite beautiful in its own right) was a first-round knockout for TOC.

Another reason I always LOVE seeing TOC is to try to discover move features that influenced Hanse's design at my club.  

It's definitely very high on my must visit list.

Dan

I still don't get TOC and suspect I never will as one probably needs a load more games on her than I shall ever play.  That doesn't mean I don't respect the course nor does it mean I don't think it is a good course.  I just don't get it (meaning how to play it), but that is certainly part of TOC's charm.  I am going back for my 4th visit over a 20 year period and I suspect I shall still be shaing my head as I look out the window of the St Andrews GC - its almost too predictable.   


Ciao

[Steve Kline]

Give me the 18th hole at St. Andrews over the typical long slog of a hole designed to bring people to their knees.  At least with 18 at St. Andrews, everyone has the opportunity to score well- assuming you can pull the shots off.   I think the potential is there for some big drama, but unfortunately the last few Opens at St. Andrews haven't been close at all.  You'd have to go back to Seve's battle with Watson to see how much of an impact the hole can have.  I think it's the perfect compliment to the tough 17th, and a great exciting way to end a round.

 

You don't need to go back that far. Try Daly-Rocca in 1995.

[Steve Kline]

The most amazing part of it at the end was to listen to them and realize they still had no idea what they'd just seen.  Very few could remember one hole from the next, apart from 1, 17 and 18, and maybe #11.  If they'd had to pass a test on it, they would all have scored below 50%.  That is probably the most perplexing thing about The Old Course ... it utterly fails the GOLF DIGEST "memorability" test, for anyone except a golf course architect or shaper who would be drooling over all the features of the holes.

I think that is true of most links courses for American golfers. First, there are no trees, which for me our reference points that I'm used to using to define holes. Second, most Americans are cramming 6-10 different courses into a 6 day stretch. It's pretty tough to remember anything specific about courses when you're doing that. On my first trip, I played North Berwick once and I couldn't tell you anything about a single hole out there. On my second trip, I played Crail twice and could tell you more. On my third trip I played Cruden Bay twice and I could tell you a lot. I've also participated on this site more for each of those trips.

[Jim Franklin]

I have never beed more seduced by a course in my life as I have been watching the shots played into and around the greens this week. Absolutely wonderful.

Bingo! The different shots being played was a joy to watch.