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Ran Morrissett

  • Karma: +0/-0
How can you like The Old Course and Muirfield the same?
« on: July 17, 2010, 06:02:36 PM »
I understand preferring one more than the other.

Perhaps you like the ruthless perfection of Muirfield and playing down hay lined fairways that will eventually expose the weakness in your game. You appreciate having everything frankly presented so that you can make intelligent decisions.

Maybe you like the blindness, ground contours and wild greens of St. Andrews.

Regardless of which type of golf you prefer, I don't get how you can like them the same. Doak gives them both perfect scores. Many well traveled golfers put both in their top 10. There are many members of both so they must like the two distinct courses enough to divide their playing time.

I type all this because of those FABULOUS afternoon shadows we were all treated to on television today. That kind of one to four foot random ground game interest is exactly what Muirfield doesn't possess and I can't see loving those ground contours so very much and finding the 'auld water meadie' of Muirfield to be in that same class/hold the same interest.

The fact that Faldo and Nicklaus won all their Opens at those two courses is such an odd fact as how can those two wildly different courses identify the same champions?

Please explain as I know I'm missing something.

Cheers,

PS This is not my annual bash Muirfield post. Otherwise, I would add in something like: Now that Doak has designed at least four courses more interesting to play than Muirfield, I wonder if he still gives Muirfield a perfect 10?  8)

Carl Rogers

Re: How can you like The Old Course and Muirfield the same?
« Reply #1 on: July 17, 2010, 06:13:32 PM »
The same reason you can like Bach and Holst.

TEPaul

Re: How can you like The Old Course and Muirfield the same?
« Reply #2 on: July 17, 2010, 06:19:37 PM »
Ran:

Don't you appreciate the differences? Or perhaps I should say; "Why don't you appreciate the differences more than you seem to be indicating?

Melvyn Morrow

Re: How can you like The Old Course and Muirfield the same?
« Reply #3 on: July 17, 2010, 06:23:46 PM »
The same way I love Redheads and Blonds. Or Golf and F1 Or Wine and a Single Malt etc. etc, etc. ;)

Melvyn

Mike Sweeney

Re: How can you like The Old Course and Muirfield the same?
« Reply #4 on: July 17, 2010, 06:30:18 PM »
The same way I love Redheads and Blonds. Or Golf and F1 Or Wine and a Single Malt etc. etc, etc. ;)

Melvyn

Mel is on a roll tonight! Nice post Mel.

Ben Stephens

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How can you like The Old Course and Muirfield the same?
« Reply #5 on: July 17, 2010, 06:47:49 PM »
Ran,

St Andrews and Muirfield are definitely two contrasting golf courses. It is Tom Doak's opinion to rate them both a 10 maybe he likes the variety that both courses have to offer - Muirfield is probably the best Colt Course in the World and St Andrews is unique. Muirfield may not have the shadows but it has the fairer bounce and run in to the green. TOC you need quite a bit of luck and a hot putter.

Having walked around TOC a number of times in the Dunhill Cup and St Andrews Links Trophy I personally would not rate TOC as a 10 and I have never been to Muirfield but I enjoy watching a Muirfield Open much more than I would of a St Andrews Open.

The Open courses I have played in ranking order - 1. Carnoustie, 2. Sandwich, 3. Birkdale, 4. Turnberry, 5. Hoylake, 6. Lytham, 7. Musselburgh. Having been a spectator at TOC I would rate it inbetween Turnberry and Hoylake.

Personally I would rate Carnoustie as a 10 as it is the toughest and fairest test of all and it has been in a great condition for the last 10 years! We will find out how the Seniors will cope on it next week :)

Faldo and Nicklaus had fantastic course management and ruthless mindset and they were the best players of their time. Nicklaus said to be remembered you had to win at St Andrews and he did that twice! People tend to remember who won at St Andrews more than any other course because of its historical significance in the 150 years of the Open

I could not believe that the R and A stopped play at St Andrews on Friday - there was worst weather at the 2002 Open at Muirfield and a much better Tiger shot 81 and he was blown off course!

I had recently played Painswick and did not like the course and preferred Adi Stiff's new Stranhan course at the Player's Club.

Cheers
Ben

PS I cant wait for another Sandwich Open and for god's sake take the Open to Wales ASAP!

Ben Stephens

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How can you like The Old Course and Muirfield the same?
« Reply #6 on: July 17, 2010, 06:50:44 PM »
The same way I love Redheads and Blonds. Or Golf and F1 Or Wine and a Single Malt etc. etc, etc. ;)

Melvyn

MHM - I was going to compare the two courses to cars - I would say that TOC is a Bentley Blower and Muirfield is a Jaguar D-Type! :)

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How can you like The Old Course and Muirfield the same?
« Reply #7 on: July 17, 2010, 07:06:42 PM »
Ran,

St Andrews and Muirfield are definitely two contrasting golf courses. It is Tom Doak's opinion to rate them both a 10 maybe he likes the variety that both courses have to offer - Muirfield is probably the best Colt Course in the World and St Andrews is unique. Muirfield may not have the shadows but it has the fairer bounce and run in to the green. TOC you need quite a bit of luck and a hot putter.

Having walked around TOC a number of times in the Dunhill Cup and St Andrews Links Trophy I personally would not rate TOC as a 10 and I have never been to Muirfield but I enjoy watching a Muirfield Open much more than I would of a St Andrews Open.

The Open courses I have played in ranking order - 1. Carnoustie, 2. Sandwich, 3. Birkdale, 4. Turnberry, 5. Hoylake, 6. Lytham, 7. Musselburgh. Having been a spectator at TOC I would rate it inbetween Turnberry and Hoylake.

Personally I would rate Carnoustie as a 10 as it is the toughest and fairest test of all and it has been in a great condition for the last 10 years! We will find out how the Seniors will cope on it next week :)

Faldo and Nicklaus had fantastic course management and ruthless mindset and they were the best players of their time. Nicklaus said to be remembered you had to win at St Andrews and he did that twice! People tend to remember who won at St Andrews more than any other course because of its historical significance in the 150 years of the Open

I could not believe that the R and A stopped play at St Andrews on Friday - there was worst weather at the 2002 Open at Muirfield and a much better Tiger shot 81 and he was blown off course!

I had recently played Painswick and did not like the course and preferred Adi Stiff's new Stranhan course at the Player's Club.

Cheers
Ben

PS I cant wait for another Sandwich Open and for god's sake take the Open to Wales ASAP!

I for one am suspicious of anyone who does not like Painswick.

Seriously.

Ben Stephens

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How can you like The Old Course and Muirfield the same?
« Reply #8 on: July 17, 2010, 07:17:27 PM »

I for one am suspicious of anyone who does not like Painswick.

Seriously.

Bill,

I suspect we will have a colourful discussion about Painswick at BUDA.  ;D

Like TOC - Painswick is an unique course but I would not play it often. Some of the holes are plainly ridiculous!!! The hole that really stood out for me was the 6th and also there are a lot of mundane holes and the 17th is a bit of a joke!

I can see why a number of GCAers love Painswick but it was not for me. I'd rather play Cavendish all the time as I thought it was awesome and alongside Brancaster the most fun I have had on a golf course.

Cheers
Ben
« Last Edit: July 17, 2010, 07:20:12 PM by Ben Stephens »

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How can you like The Old Course and Muirfield the same?
« Reply #9 on: July 17, 2010, 07:37:07 PM »
Ben

You mean you didn't like Painswick in that it didn't make you smile or laugh?  Come on, even a smashmouth golfer like yourself can afford a laugh or two when you take in Painswick as a whole.  There really are some good holes there which would grace a load of courses, even Cavendish; #s 4, 6, 11 & 16 for sure. 

Ran

I am still cannot believe Tom gave Muirfield a 10, but I don't think this rating implies that he likes all 10s equally.  I think his ratings are architecturally based with a bit of wiggle room for this and that.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Chris Cupit

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How can you like The Old Course and Muirfield the same?
« Reply #10 on: July 17, 2010, 08:53:42 PM »
I don't either ;D

I love The Old Course.  If I had one course to play oversees it would be TOC.  (In America it would be NGLA).

Played Muirfield as well.  Did it and have no desire to ever do it again.  Very flat and boring to me.  My favorite hole was #11 which, of course, was the least favorite hole for most of the players I was with!  #17 was great too, but, similar par threes and #9 and #18 were letdowns.   

Anyway, I love TOC and have little love for Muirfield.

Peter Pallotta

Re: How can you like The Old Course and Muirfield the same?
« Reply #11 on: July 17, 2010, 09:02:36 PM »
"The fact that Faldo and Nicklaus won all their Opens at those two courses is such an odd fact as how can those two wildly different courses identify the same champions?"

I didn't realize that, Ran. It may mean that the best players can tailor their games/choices to suit the venue. Which in turn may mean that Muirfield demands more thought than we realize, as the nature of that thinking (and the execution that follows) may be shaped almost entirely by the demands and expectations of golf at the highest level, in the context of a major championship test.

Peter  

Tiger_Bernhardt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How can you like The Old Course and Muirfield the same?
« Reply #12 on: July 17, 2010, 09:04:47 PM »
Rating and ranking the same is far from likeing them the same. Muirfield is more fundamental or utilitarian in its greatness. TOC generates passion, joy and ultimately the respect one gives to the best.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: How can you like The Old Course and Muirfield the same?
« Reply #13 on: July 17, 2010, 09:09:22 PM »
I wonder if he still gives Muirfield a perfect 10? 

Absolutely, I do.

But if the scale went to eleven, The Old Course would be the only 11.

They are totally different courses.  That's what I love about them.  And Pine Valley is totally different than either of them.  And Cypress Point is totally different than any of the three.  And Merion is totally different than any of those.  That's why they're 10's, or at least it's one of the main reasons.

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How can you like The Old Course and Muirfield the same?
« Reply #14 on: July 17, 2010, 11:47:58 PM »
I'd probably rank TOC first, then North Berwick, then Muirfield....but it's Tom's ranking, and that's fine by me.
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How can you like The Old Course and Muirfield the same?
« Reply #15 on: July 18, 2010, 12:26:20 AM »
My two personal measures of a golf course are memorability and variety/uniqueness.  Muirfield and the Old Course score 100% in both categories for me.  I love them differently but both fervently.

Given the choice between playing one or the other for a final round, I'd pick TOC but I still admire both.

Ben Stephens

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How can you like The Old Course and Muirfield the same?
« Reply #16 on: July 18, 2010, 05:49:26 AM »
Ben

You mean you didn't like Painswick in that it didn't make you smile or laugh?  Come on, even a smashmouth golfer like yourself can afford a laugh or two when you take in Painswick as a whole.  There really are some good holes there which would grace a load of courses, even Cavendish; #s 4, 6, 11 & 16 for sure.  

Ciao

Buongiornio Sean,

Painswick is definitely 'wacky' in places or the craziest golf I've played on turf but it did not 'click' for me - the 1st is an unusual opener, most of the holes are mundane in my view 5 and 10 are too similar. I would redesign a couple of greens such as 3rd, 12th and 16th to fit in with the land better - it looks artifical to me. 16 would be better if they built a green further down and 17 is turned into a par 3 and 18 into a par 4 as suggested by Boony!

There are more good holes at Cavendish not just 4,6,11,+ 16 theres also 2, 3, 5, 10, 13, 14, 15!!!!!! and 18. Even Tom Doak says its one of the best courses in the world under 6000 yards! This course really clicked for me as it tested every department of the game whereas Painswick does not.

Cheers
Ben
« Last Edit: July 18, 2010, 05:54:28 AM by Ben Stephens »

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How can you like The Old Course and Muirfield the same?
« Reply #17 on: July 18, 2010, 06:08:34 AM »
Ben

You mean you didn't like Painswick in that it didn't make you smile or laugh?  Come on, even a smashmouth golfer like yourself can afford a laugh or two when you take in Painswick as a whole.  There really are some good holes there which would grace a load of courses, even Cavendish; #s 4, 6, 11 & 16 for sure.  

Ciao

Buongiornio Sean,

Painswick is definitely 'wacky' in places or the craziest golf I've played on turf but it did not 'click' for me - the 1st is an unusual opener, most of the holes are mundane in my view 5 and 10 are too similar. I would redesign a couple of greens such as 3rd, 12th and 16th to fit in with the land better - it looks artifical to me. 16 would be better if they built a green further down and 17 is turned into a par 3 and 18 into a par 4 as suggested by Boony!

There are more good holes at Cavendish not just 4,6,11,+ 16 theres also 2, 3, 5, 10, 13, 14, 15!!!!!! and 18. Even Tom Doak says its one of the best courses in the world under 6000 yards! This course really clicked for me as it tested every department of the game whereas Painswick does not.

Cheers
Ben

Ben

I definitely think Cavendish is a better course than Painswick, but I can see the value of Painswick.  It is by no means a perfect course and there are holes like the first which are clearly poor, but it is still an admrable course if only for a look it gives golfers into past to fully understand how designers worked and how basic golf was.  My reference to #s 4, 6, 11 and 16 was at Painswick - not Cavendish. 

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Ben Stephens

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How can you like The Old Course and Muirfield the same?
« Reply #18 on: July 18, 2010, 07:28:31 AM »
Ben

You mean you didn't like Painswick in that it didn't make you smile or laugh?  Come on, even a smashmouth golfer like yourself can afford a laugh or two when you take in Painswick as a whole.  There really are some good holes there which would grace a load of courses, even Cavendish; #s 4, 6, 11 & 16 for sure.  

Ciao

Buongiornio Sean,

Painswick is definitely 'wacky' in places or the craziest golf I've played on turf but it did not 'click' for me - the 1st is an unusual opener, most of the holes are mundane in my view 5 and 10 are too similar. I would redesign a couple of greens such as 3rd, 12th and 16th to fit in with the land better - it looks artifical to me. 16 would be better if they built a green further down and 17 is turned into a par 3 and 18 into a par 4 as suggested by Boony!

There are more good holes at Cavendish not just 4,6,11,+ 16 theres also 2, 3, 5, 10, 13, 14, 15!!!!!! and 18. Even Tom Doak says its one of the best courses in the world under 6000 yards! This course really clicked for me as it tested every department of the game whereas Painswick does not.

Cheers
Ben

Ben

I definitely think Cavendish is a better course than Painswick, but I can see the value of Painswick.  It is by no means a perfect course and there are holes like the first which are clearly poor, but it is still an admrable course if only for a look it gives golfers into past to fully understand how designers worked and how basic golf was.  My reference to #s 4, 6, 11 and 16 was at Painswick - not Cavendish. 

Ciao

I agree with what you have just written. Sorry about the confusion about 4, 6, 11 & 16 at Painswick they are interesting holes in their own right. My general feeeling is that the course could have been better potentially with the land it has.

Kevin Pallier

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How can you like The Old Course and Muirfield the same?
« Reply #19 on: July 18, 2010, 08:21:31 AM »
I certainly have more fun playing TOC but I adore the subtlety of the routing of Muirfield. Both are wonderful places in which to test ones imagination in playing links golf.

cary lichtenstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How can you like The Old Course and Muirfield the same?
« Reply #20 on: July 18, 2010, 12:47:40 PM »
I clearly enjoyed TOC way more than either Muirfield or Carnoustie. I could play TOC everyday
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

Michael Moore

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How can you like The Old Course and Muirfield the same?
« Reply #21 on: May 19, 2015, 11:36:31 AM »
MUIRFIELD

Once you get through the gate (yes, my host gave me slightly incomplete instructions and there I was, pushing, pulling, and pounding) is there a more invigorating panorama in golf than the entire course, the firth, the practice tee, the putting green, the bag drop, the coffee room, all pristine and perfect, all with the absence of a tee time? Could the cliche of "everything right there in front of you" ever be more welcoming?
   
Descriptions of this course as cold and clinical are wildly off base. In fact, as a walk in the park, I think this place is hard to beat. From the car park that is a veritable aviary, to the third green, to the fifth fairway, to the eighth green, to the fifteenth tee, this course has a profound serenity. The traditionally furious pace of play is the only thing that interferes with this, but as I was reminded, "this is a dining club with a golf course attached" and who wants to miss the first sitting?

As for the golf, first of all, is there a better course off the tee? Is there? All of the long holes offer the opportunity to hit your best drive near to, away from, over, or around a bunker or maybe five of them. I am not going to sit here and tell you that I can work the driver both ways, but for those who can this must be golf heaven. And isn't it more fun to admire your drive than have it disappear over a "piece of mess"? Regarding the other tee shots, yes, the par threes are a bit similar and extremely difficult, but they do point in three different directions, and like all of the approaches on the course, you can always punt and opt out of a do-or-die situation.

The greens generally lack dramatic internal contour, but seeing that there are a great many places where your ball can roll off the green and into a bunker, and seeing that there is plenty of slope, steep in places, insidious in others, so what? I loved the fact that Muirfield is rooting for you, that if you hit a good shot it will pat you on the back and say "nice job".

I have never seen Shinnecock but I would presume that it is perhaps the only other course that can combine a such a test of golf with such a walk in the park.


THE OLD COURSE

I will always be grateful to Rich Goodale for making sure that this was the first links course that I ever saw. And wouldn't you know it, he wrote a book on this course and we still got lost in the middle of the crossover; this will be my defining memory, and thus I would say the course is a bit more like a fraternity hazing than walk in the park. But, as I work up some thoughts on Walter Benjamin’s "dictatorial perpendicular" and the notion of horizontal golf for another time, I will say that if you keep your eyes on the ground, you never know what you might see here. I was simply unprepared for the sheer amount of stuff on this course.

As hinted at above, I was completely transfixed by the crossover. I have no idea how it got there, or how dangerous it is, but to have the course and the routing anchored by three enormous acres of fairway, touching four of the very best holes on the course, scrambled my brain and I had a hard time concentrating after that.

I am very glad to parrot the party line – for architectural excellence, the first, second, fifth, seventh, tenth, eleventh, twelfth, fourteenth, and eighteenth holes are simply unforgettable, and that’s not counting how very different these holes are and the various directions in which they point. That's half the course.

CONCLUSION

There are no architectural high notes at Muirfield, no symphony of golf. The first tee shot is engaging and compelling, as is the approach to eighteen, as is every single shot in between.

The Old Course is not beautiful, nor is it subtle. It’s coming at you with a firehose of gorse, invisible bunkers, mounds as tall as your chest, pedestrians, water hazards, stray golf shots, a trademarked catchphrase, and ultimately, a bewildering assortment of pin locations.

If you asked me where we should play tomorrow I would quickly say Muirfield, and if you asked me where we should play the rest of our days I would just as quickly say The Old Course.
Metaphor is social and shares the table with the objects it intertwines and the attitudes it reconciles. Opinion, like the Michelin inspector, dines alone. - Adam Gopnik, The Table Comes First

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How can you like The Old Course and Muirfield the same?
« Reply #22 on: May 19, 2015, 12:53:20 PM »
MM says, "... as I work up some thoughts on Walter Benjamin’s "dictatorial perpendicular" and the notion of horizontal golf for another time,..."

I'd love to see your "work up" sooner rather than later.

Terrific post.

Bob

Gib_Papazian

Re: How can you like The Old Course and Muirfield the same?
« Reply #23 on: May 19, 2015, 02:13:32 PM »
For the same reason Clockwork Orange & Harold and Maude are both in my cinematic pantheon. I do not find scoring both TOC and Muirfield a “10” to be contradictory in the least. Look at NGLA and Shinnecock Hills!

Muirfield is the Shinnecock of Scotland and NGLA can arguably asserted America’s TOC (maybe a North Berwick, Prestwick combo). I recall Tom technically giving Shinnecock a “9,”  but we’re playing semantics and splitting ridiculous hairs - like trying to argue whether Greta Garbo or Audrey Hepburn is more photogenic.

Once again (paraphrasing myself), all great golf courses can roughly be divided somewhere between Objective Examinations and Whimsical Adventures. Which one you prefer says quite a bit about how you view not only the game of golf, but the game of life.

There is plenty of room in Tom Paul’s “tent” for Kate Beckensail and Michelle Pfeiffer without having to assert whether one is superior to another.

JMEvensky

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How can you like The Old Course and Muirfield the same?
« Reply #24 on: May 19, 2015, 02:29:19 PM »
For the same reason Clockwork Orange & Harold and Maude are both in my cinematic pantheon. I do not find scoring both TOC and Muirfield a “10” to be contradictory in the least. Look at NGLA and Shinnecock Hills!

Muirfield is the Shinnecock of Scotland and NGLA can arguably asserted America’s TOC (maybe a North Berwick, Prestwick combo). I recall Tom technically giving Shinnecock a “9,”  but we’re playing semantics and splitting ridiculous hairs - like trying to argue whether Greta Garbo or Audrey Hepburn is more photogenic.

Once again (paraphrasing myself), all great golf courses can roughly be divided somewhere between Objective Examinations and Whimsical Adventures. Which one you prefer says quite a bit about how you view not only the game of golf, but the game of life.

There is plenty of room in Tom Paul’s “tent” for Kate Beckensail and Michelle Pfeiffer without having to assert whether one is superior to another.



A Clockwork Orange and Harold and Maude in one's pantheon makes perfect sense. But Garbo could give Hepburn 2 a side,and I'm a huge AH fan.

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