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Adam Clayman

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Suggesting a gauge for ball roll back specs.
« on: July 17, 2010, 02:50:29 PM »
Rather than picking an era, watching the players drive the 18th green at St. Andrews Old Course, leads me to believe that this historic place in golf deserves to be the gauge.  

Without the aid of significant wind, driving this green seems to exemplify the excesses of modernity. Surely, it must ruin pace, even for everyday play, as the trickle down affect from the pro game is mimicked by many recreational golfers.

If you agree that the ball needs to be reigned in, I submit there's no better homage than using the home hole, at the home of golf, as the best gauge those young, pioneering USGA/R&A committeemen should use in trying to decide how far the ball should go when hit at 150 mph.

I won't get into any more specifics, now, but would enjoy hearing (OK, Reading) thoughts on this and other possible gauges and justifications.

« Last Edit: July 17, 2010, 02:52:22 PM by Adam Clayman »
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

John Moore II

Re: Suggesting a gauge for ball roll back specs.
« Reply #1 on: July 17, 2010, 04:21:07 PM »
Surely you must remember Jack Nicklaus hitting his tee shots over the green in the 1970 Open Championship? That was 40 years ago; I wish I could find a scorecard from that championship. But my gosh, this hole is some 350+ yards long. Thats a mighty high maximum standard; really a pointless max standard given that only a select few can get it out there that far baring really firm ground conditions or wind. I mean, 150 mph ball speed roughly amounts to 125 mph head speed which, given calm conditions at sea level, works out to a ~310 yard drive. You have to consider that golf balls are rolling 50+ yards to get on that green.

Garland Bayley

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Re: Suggesting a gauge for ball roll back specs.
« Reply #2 on: July 17, 2010, 09:11:31 PM »
As I have suggested in the past, the gauge for ball roll backs would be one that reads the spin. The game was played differently when the ball spun more. To get rid of bomb and gouge you need to return to the spin specs of the older balls.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Adam Clayman

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Re: Suggesting a gauge for ball roll back specs.
« Reply #3 on: July 17, 2010, 09:56:03 PM »
Yes Garland, but the argument then raised is which ball. Which era? My suggestion was trying think around that argument by not fixating on era, but by fixing ball specs, so that only the most perfect of strikes could yield driving the home hole green, or the 9th.  Heck, I wouldn't be surprised if there's a story of someone who did it before the Haskel. Wind and ground considerations being perfect. Think Ice. ;)
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

John Moore II

Re: Suggesting a gauge for ball roll back specs.
« Reply #4 on: July 18, 2010, 01:33:43 PM »
As I have suggested in the past, the gauge for ball roll backs would be one that reads the spin. The game was played differently when the ball spun more. To get rid of bomb and gouge you need to return to the spin specs of the older balls.


Prove this statement. Show me statistics. Prove it. Also, go and look back. I am looking at an article online that states the distance gain going from a Gutta-percha ball to a Haskell ball was about 20 yards. To be sure, the general construction of the Haskell improved over the years, but the 2000 Titleist Professional was made in much the same way as the Haskell in 1900. Do the ProV1's go 20 yards farther on average than the Professionals? Prove to me they do.

Distance gains have come from much more than the golf ball. Lighter clubs allow for more head speed. Longer clubs allow for more head speed. Stronger lofts allow for even more distance when coupled with that additional head speed. Different club materials allow for higher ball speed off the face. You just don't get it.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Suggesting a gauge for ball roll back specs.
« Reply #5 on: July 18, 2010, 02:58:47 PM »
John:

What I get is that when Jack Nicklaus drove the 18th green in the playoff in 1970, it was a one-off, an indication of how strong he was.

And that was with the 1.62-in ball that went +/- 30 yards farther than the American ball of that day and age!

This, most of the field seemed to be able to drive it up on the green.  I know it's not all the ball.  It's a number of things.  The question is, will anyone ever decide that some of those things ought to be fixed.  If they do, the ball is the easiest to change.

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Suggesting a gauge for ball roll back specs.
« Reply #6 on: July 20, 2010, 03:45:14 PM »
John Moore,

I think you might be underestimating how much longer top players hit the ball as compared to a dozen years ago (give or take a few.)  You request proof of the increase and its cause, and that is a difficult matter, but nonetheless there have been plenty of discussions addressing the changes as well as all sorts of comparisons to the past.  I am not going to recite them all here because some are long and fairly complicated, but a few creative searches should pull them up.   I am curious, what sort of proof are you looking for?  What if anything would convince you that the new ball has lead to an large jump in driving distances for the big hitters? What if anything would convince you that this is a major problem for gca?  As for your mention of Nicklaus' 1970 drive, I agree with Tom.  It was an anomoly.   That said, I wonder if perhaps you underestimate how much of of anomoly such drives of over 350 yards were.  Not long ago, drives over 350 yards were either wild fantasies or anomolies caused by freak conditions.  Now they have become commonplace for top players.

On the PGA Tour in 1992, only one single drive was hit farther than 350 yards. Mark Calcavecchia. 372 yards.

On the PGA Tour in 2009 I cannot tell you how many times 350 yards was surpassed, because the Longest Drives list only includes drives of 356 yards and over.  There were 985 drives of 356 yards or more.

But the above stats might not even do the issue justice.  There are likely hundreds more just below 356, and thousands more close to it.  Likely there were just too many to carry the list down much further.  Every few yards adds a bunch of long drives.  Last year 237 drives measured 357-359 yards.  

Imagine how many thousands more measured over that once mythical 300 yard mark?   It would be freakish indeed if there were almost 1000 drives over 350 yards, but only a few between 300 and 350.  
« Last Edit: July 20, 2010, 03:50:18 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

JohnV

Re: Suggesting a gauge for ball roll back specs.
« Reply #7 on: July 20, 2010, 04:05:22 PM »
David,  In 1992, I believe they only got distances on two holes, but with Shotlink they now get distances for every hole.  I'm not disputing you that the ball goes further and that there are more drives over 350, just mentioning that those were apples and these are oranges.

Melvyn Morrow

Re: Suggesting a gauge for ball roll back specs.
« Reply #8 on: July 20, 2010, 04:44:42 PM »

My suggestion would be to go way back to the time after the Haskell  took over from the Gutty when the Second Golden Age was about to start. It would honour all those great courses.

It seems mad that we build great courses and a few years later they have to be modified leaving little of the original designers intent. It would be a good starting point leaving open the door for further improvements in play.

Melvyn

Richard Choi

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Re: Suggesting a gauge for ball roll back specs.
« Reply #9 on: July 20, 2010, 04:53:42 PM »
Modifying the entire game because of 0.001% group of players is absolutely moronic.

Have we not learned anything from the groove change? All that brouhaha and lawsuits and the scramble statistics and driving statistics have not changed one iota, and you guys want to go through another one?

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Suggesting a gauge for ball roll back specs.
« Reply #10 on: July 20, 2010, 04:57:36 PM »
As I have suggested in the past, the gauge for ball roll backs would be one that reads the spin. The game was played differently when the ball spun more. To get rid of bomb and gouge you need to return to the spin specs of the older balls.


Prove this statement. Show me statistics. Prove it. Also, go and look back. I am looking at an article online that states the distance gain going from a Gutta-percha ball to a Haskell ball was about 20 yards. To be sure, the general construction of the Haskell improved over the years, but the 2000 Titleist Professional was made in much the same way as the Haskell in 1900. Do the ProV1's go 20 yards farther on average than the Professionals? Prove to me they do.

Distance gains have come from much more than the golf ball. Lighter clubs allow for more head speed. Longer clubs allow for more head speed. Stronger lofts allow for even more distance when coupled with that additional head speed. Different club materials allow for higher ball speed off the face. You just don't get it.

My statement on distance comes from a TEP post that said the USGA told him that the change in spin makes the ProV go around 25 yards further than the balata covered balls that the tour pros used to use. It is impossible to prove empirically, because no one makes a comparable ball to the old ones, and the old wound balls had to be relatively new to maintain peak performance. I would imaging that the USGA has the mathematical models that would show that result. That coincides with my experience as a young man playing TopFlites and Titleists. It also coincides with what several people have testified to on this site saying that there used to be competitors in high level tournaments that used TopFlites and far out drove the field, but never had much success due to the limited control they had around the greens.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Suggesting a gauge for ball roll back specs.
« Reply #11 on: July 20, 2010, 05:04:04 PM »
John,

Good point.  I took another look and they are definitely using all drives for the more recent.   Unfortunately the PGA Tour stats are all messed up right now for less recent years, so I cannot look closely at 1992 to see what they were using.  But I take your word for it that they were very likely only using the two holes they chose to measure driving distance.  

But while not perfect the numbers are hardly apples and oranges.    It would be nearly statistically impossible for there to have been only one drive of over 350 yards on the measured holes, and hundreds of drives over 350 yards on the unmeasured holes. This is especially the tour chooses to measure on holes where more of the field will likely hit driver.   Now we are dealing with thousands of drives over 350 yards.

On that topic, I think I drastically underestimated the number of huge drives these guys hit.  I guessed that thousands of drives were hit at least 300 yards.  I should of have guessed in the tens of thousands.    On the PGA tour last year (2009) there were tens of thousands of drives hit 300 yards or more.

Last year, 165 PGA Tour players hit at least one hundred (100) drives of 300 yards or more.  Below is a sampling of how many of these drives were hit by some recognizable players.

Number of Drives Hit 300 Yards or More

298 such drives for Mickelson  
239 such drives for Cabrerra
380 such drives for Kim
358 such drives for Mahan
248 such drives for Romero
275 such drives for O'Hair
165 such drives for Couples
254 such drives for Ogilvy
194 such drives for Garcia
231 such drives for Singh
209 such drives for Woods
315 such drives for Howell III
236 such drives for Cink

Again, these were chosen for name recognition.  The big hitters hit a lot more.  For example, Dustin Johnson hit 477 drives of 300 yards or more, and Charlie Hoffman hit 478 such drives.
(All stats from PGA tour website)
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

John Moore II

Re: Suggesting a gauge for ball roll back specs.
« Reply #12 on: July 20, 2010, 05:07:37 PM »
As I have suggested in the past, the gauge for ball roll backs would be one that reads the spin. The game was played differently when the ball spun more. To get rid of bomb and gouge you need to return to the spin specs of the older balls.


Prove this statement. Show me statistics. Prove it. Also, go and look back. I am looking at an article online that states the distance gain going from a Gutta-percha ball to a Haskell ball was about 20 yards. To be sure, the general construction of the Haskell improved over the years, but the 2000 Titleist Professional was made in much the same way as the Haskell in 1900. Do the ProV1's go 20 yards farther on average than the Professionals? Prove to me they do.

Distance gains have come from much more than the golf ball. Lighter clubs allow for more head speed. Longer clubs allow for more head speed. Stronger lofts allow for even more distance when coupled with that additional head speed. Different club materials allow for higher ball speed off the face. You just don't get it.

My statement on distance comes from a TEP post that said the USGA told him that the change in spin makes the ProV go around 25 yards further than the balata covered balls that the tour pros used to use. It is impossible to prove empirically, because no one makes a comparable ball to the old ones, and the old wound balls had to be relatively new to maintain peak performance. I would imaging that the USGA has the mathematical models that would show that result. That coincides with my experience as a young man playing TopFlites and Titleists. It also coincides with what several people have testified to on this site saying that there used to be competitors in high level tournaments that used TopFlites and far out drove the field, but never had much success due to the limited control they had around the greens.


I'll take Tom's word that the USGA said 25 yards more than Balata; that would probably amount to right around 20 yards longer than a Professional, as they were moderately longer but vastly more durable. However, either way, you prove what I was trying to talk about. This is not the first time golf balls has gotten 20+ yards longer nearly over night. The game survived fine in 1900, it will survive just fine in 2010. I feel quite sure that the same arguments being being made today were made 110 years ago. The game will do just fine without a change in the ball.

Dan Herrmann

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Re: Suggesting a gauge for ball roll back specs.
« Reply #13 on: July 20, 2010, 05:10:10 PM »

My suggestion would be to go way back to the time after the Haskell  took over from the Gutty when the Second Golden Age was about to start. It would honour all those great courses.

It seems mad that we build great courses and a few years later they have to be modified leaving little of the original designers intent. It would be a good starting point leaving open the door for further improvements in play.

Melvyn


Melvyn,
Fair enough.  But what do you do with all the courses built since then?  Wouldn't they be too long?  ;)

(Seriously, though - I'm sure this very question is on the minds of the USGA/R&A)

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Suggesting a gauge for ball roll back specs.
« Reply #14 on: July 20, 2010, 05:22:47 PM »
...This is not the first time golf balls has gotten 20+ yards longer nearly over night. The game survived fine in 1900, it will survive just fine in 2010. I feel quite sure that the same arguments being being made today were made 110 years ago. The game will do just fine without a change in the ball.

If the USGA were to regulate the ball as I specified, it would not be the first time the USGA regulated the ball to control distance. They did so with the initial velocity test, and the game did just fine. They did so with the overall distance standard, and the game did just fine.

However, it seems arguable that the game is doing just fine currently with the distance game and without a new regulation. However, I doubt whether anyone can offer conclusive prove that the trend of the last several years has anything to do with ball distance.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Suggesting a gauge for ball roll back specs.
« Reply #15 on: July 20, 2010, 05:49:41 PM »
R. Choi,

It isn't just .001%.  It is anyone with a swing speed high enough to reap the benefit of the new technology relative to the old.   There are lots of these guys and many of them aren't all that good.  But they hit it far.

It is moronic when two -3 index players, one a long hitter and one a short hitter, do not fit well on the same golf course from the same tees.  
 
___________________________________________________________________________________

I am glad you are comfortable, but I am not.

I am not sure where you get the numbers to conclude that this change is about the same as past changes.  Perhaps you could come up with some more facts to support the conclusion?    Because my impression is that recent yardage jumps dwarf past yardage increases due to technological change, especially for those with higher swing speeds.

Additionally, this time it is not the same for a number of reasons, including the following.

1.  After the introduction of the haskell ball just about every decent course in America was rebuilt, relocated, or at least significantly altered and lengthened.   But that was in an era of plentiful and inexpensive land and when courses still had room to expand.   This time there is nowhere reasonable to which to expand for most courses, so they are tricked up all sorts of ways in the hopes that they will remain relevant.

2.  Luckily, losing some of those old courses may not have been too great a loss, as most of them were pretty remedial and without too much history or lore.   And they were replaced by courses which remain some of our best to this day.  So this time, we aren't losing some dark ages relic that probably needed improvement anyway, we are in danger of losing courses that have helped define golf for the past 80 to 100 years, and could continue to do so with reasonable regulation of the ball.   These courses won't necessarily disappear, but the type of golf offered will bare less and less resemblance to what they once was.

3.   The introduction of the haskell ball benefited all golfers, but it especially benefited the duffers.   Reportedly, mishitting the prior ball was like hitting a brick, it went nowhere and would even crack clubshafts, so the duffer had been taking his lumps scorewise and equipment-wise.  With the Haskell, the duffer probably improved relative to the scratch and the gap between the two may have narrowed slightly.

This time, the new ball disproportionately benefits the long hitter as opposed to the short hitter,  Some golfers get dozens more yards out of the Pro V while many gained nothing.  This has created a huge gap between long and short which dwarfs anything we've had before.  The gap taxes the old architecture beyond the breaking point and it makes building new courses that actually work for everyone an extremely unlikely prospect.  

In other words, it is killing the architecture.  
« Last Edit: July 20, 2010, 05:52:59 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Suggesting a gauge for ball roll back specs.
« Reply #16 on: July 20, 2010, 06:31:51 PM »

It is moronic when two -3 index players, one a long hitter and one a short hitter, do not fit well on the same golf course from the same tees.  
 


David,

Could you elaborate on this question please? What specific example are you referencing?

Thanks.

Kirk Gill

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Re: Suggesting a gauge for ball roll back specs.
« Reply #17 on: July 20, 2010, 08:35:19 PM »
I know that someone a lot smarter than I has brought this up before, and rejected it for some good reason - but.

Why shouldn't golf be like baseball? Amateurs swing metal, and pros swing wood?

If the pros had to play persimmon heads, perhaps even of smaller size than the current massive ones......how much would it affect driving distance and accuracy, even if the ball remained unchanged?

You and I could keep playing our "metal woods" without guilt.
"After all, we're not communists."
                             -Don Barzini

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Suggesting a gauge for ball roll back specs.
« Reply #18 on: July 20, 2010, 08:39:19 PM »
Kirk,

I think safety is the primary issue in baseball, isn't it?

With the exception of Garland Bayley on here, I haven't seen that used as a justification for any sort of rollback.

In my opinion, why not just build golf courses for the people that play them?

Kirk Gill

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Suggesting a gauge for ball roll back specs.
« Reply #19 on: July 20, 2010, 09:24:05 PM »
I wouldn't contend that the rationale for using wood in golf is anything like the rationale in baseball. I'm just wondering what effect having professional golfers only use wooden woods would have on their distance and accuracy. I really wouldn't care at ALL what the pros do if it didn't cause a bunch of folks to get their panties in a wad and go about screwing with existing golf courses just so they won't get overpowered by professional play. I totally agree with your statement "why not just build golf courses for the people that play them?"

Just a notion.
"After all, we're not communists."
                             -Don Barzini

John Moore II

Re: Suggesting a gauge for ball roll back specs.
« Reply #20 on: July 20, 2010, 09:25:08 PM »

This time, the new ball disproportionately benefits the long hitter as opposed to the short hitter,  Some golfers get dozens more yards out of the Pro V while many gained nothing.  This has created a huge gap between long and short which dwarfs anything we've had before.  The gap taxes the old architecture beyond the breaking point and it makes building new courses that actually work for everyone an extremely unlikely prospect.  

In other words, it is killing the architecture.  


I disagree with that. Especially given what Bridgestone has done in the past few years. Their B330 series has balls that are hard cored for high swing speed players and others that have softer cores for better players who don't swing as fast. Add to that their E series which has balls for the even slower swing speed players to gain distance with less spin. Now, it may be killing older architecture, I can't totally disagree with that; but the greats like Shinnecock, Pine Valley, etc., (and 95% of all courses really) I figure they'll remain relevant to all but the top .001% as you say and everything will be just fine.


Garland-In all your wisdom, tell me how to regulate spin. Give me a comprehensive plan for how to implement this spin regulation of yours.

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Suggesting a gauge for ball roll back specs.
« Reply #21 on: July 21, 2010, 11:21:37 AM »
...for the even slower swing speed players to gain distance with less spin...

 ???  ??? ??? ???
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Suggesting a gauge for ball roll back specs.
« Reply #22 on: July 21, 2010, 11:36:31 AM »
Shaq's reporting a one day lab experiment with a ball the mannies have supplied.

Could be a start that they have recognized there's a problem?

Nice discussion fellows, thanx.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Suggesting a gauge for ball roll back specs.
« Reply #23 on: July 21, 2010, 12:07:51 PM »
Shaq's reporting a one day lab experiment with a ball the mannies have supplied.
....

 ??? ??? ??? ???
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Richard Choi

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Suggesting a gauge for ball roll back specs.
« Reply #24 on: July 21, 2010, 12:12:43 PM »
Kirk,

I think safety is the primary issue in baseball, isn't it?


No, it is purely economic. Wooden bats break often and replacing them gets expensive. Aluminum bats pretty much last forever. All amateur baseball switched away from wooden bats because it is cheaper. No safety issue involved.

I kinda like the idea of forcing pros to hit wooden clubs and blades only.