Top 5 indicators of a quality golf facility

[Garland Bayley]

...if the numbers stated are accurate, or to dismiss the business model of Fazio or anyone else to whom these attributes are so clearly in reference, smells more of arrogance than it does of knowledge.

Golf courses are big and small, long and short, and any number of other dichotomous relationships, but in my mind, there is no such thing as an objectively good golf course.  There is only subjectivity. 

The numbers were made up! Didn't you get that?
Why is this about Fazio? What is your relationship to Fazio? And why are you so protective of him?

And by the way, there is such a thing as an objectively good golf course. See Joshua Crane.

And no soup for your soul.
 

[Steve Burrows]

And by the way, there is such a thing as an objectively good golf course. See Joshua Crane.

True enough that Crane believed in the objectivity of his own method, but the criteria that he formulated and the interpretation of those criteria are surely subjective.  No?  Indeed, it is possible that there are as many "ideal" courses in the world as their are people who play the game.  Moreover, this possibility should be celebrated. 

[Ronald Montesano]

Steve,

I, for one, find nothing remotely serious about this thread, beyond what Greg wrote.  I have a great time at a barren wasteland of a golf course, as much as I do at an overstuffed olive of a course.  Give me a day at Atunyote-Turning Stone (where everything is included in the green fee-food at the turn, dinner afterward) or a $50 day of golf at Sheep Ranch...as with my politics, I lean both ways, depending on the winds of change.

[Tim Gavrich]

1. Fast greens - 12 or better
2. Lush green grass... everywhere
3. Unrelenting, long hard setup
4. 10-20 million dollar clubhouse
5. Comfort stations stocked with "goodies"
Honrable Mention/5A. - Waterfalls


Like it or not folks that is the typical golf consumer. Probably 80-90% of those that play golf judge whether or not a facility is a quality facility and worth the money.

Right or wrong, good or bad, Trump or Doak... It is what it is and it is not going to change.

I myself cannot disagree too much with this, although I don't know if 80-90% of the golfing public have played a golf course with comfort stations.  I haven't but I can't see myself turning down something tasty and--especially--free during a round as long as it doesn't interfere too much with said round.  I don't think having a nosh mid-round is inauthentic.

Recent posters are right about most golfers having no clue just how fast greens rolling at 12 are.  This is because most golfers have never played a course whose greens run consistently at 12.  I know I have putted on greens at 12 before, but only probably about 10 competitive rounds (the Cardinal in Greensboro, NC, and Piney Branch GC in Maryland stick out in my mind), but I play in some amateur tournaments every year (mostly college events).

I am cautiously optimistic about point number 2.  Recent USGA setups have gone a long way toward making firmer and faster and slightly browner grass acceptable to many golfers.  If pros say they enjoy it, that's all that many golfers need to hear to hop on the bandwagon.  Besides, If you asked average golfers to choose the emerald side of green over drives that travel 15 to 25 yards further, they're going to take the longer drives.  Perhaps they'll do this reluctantly at first, but they'll embrace it.

[Bill_Yates]

Interesting but certainly not surprising, not one word about the only reason to go to any golf course - for the quality of the playing experience.

There's nothing like an expensive clubhouse, free soup and a lousy high dollar experience.  And we wonder why we are not attracting people to the game.

[Don_Mahaffey]

Bill,
Most people who operate or own golf courses today have one goal, make money, as much as possible, today. Grow the game? That's some slogan used by one association or another trying to generate enough revenue thru dues and ads to just stay alive for another day.
Used to be you built or bought a golf course because you loved golf and wanted to earn a living. Something happened in the last couple of decades where making a living turned into getting rich...$1,000 a day shapers, 1 Million per design architects, cater everything to the rich, that mentality took over and golf is having a hell of a time shaking it is as many are hanging on as tight as possible.
Working in golf is going back to what it was 3 - 4 decades ago where it was a living, not a road to riches. We just need to shake the pretenders loose.

[Carl Rogers]

I admit to being a real cheapskate and thus never really paying up for service and never had a caddy.  Next February, for 4 days, at Bandon, golf will be a new experience for me in a lot of ways.

While playing at Beechtree (NLE & RIP), you could have knocked me over with a feather when they wiped off my clubs at the end of the round.

Sadly, the courses I frequent all have the cute cart girl as a business strategy.  I wish Riverfront had more canteens of water out on the course.

[Dan Herrmann]

Greg wrote:
1. Fast greens - 12 or better
2. Lush green grass... everywhere
3. Unrelenting, long hard setup
4. 10-20 million dollar clubhouse
5. Comfort stations stocked with "goodies"
Honrable Mention/5A. - Waterfalls


You forgot:
6.  Bagpipers
7.  Attendants that wear knickers
8.  Beer Cart with obvious staffer
9.  A course with an animal in its name
10.  Concrete cart paths
----------------
What I think are the real top 5:
1.  Thought-provoking golf course architecture
2.  Friendly staff
3.  Fair price
4.  Good practice facility
5.  Good pace of play

(I have simple needs!)

[Bill_Yates]

Don,
Growing the game IS MAKING MORE MONEY!!!  The more people that use your course (growing the game) the more money you'll make.  The question is; Does free soup, a multi-million dollar clubhouse or a waterfall guarantee a playing experience valued enough for customers/members to do it again and again. 

Attracting players/members, retaining players/member or getting people who have given up on the game to your facility is growing the game and growing revenue.

[Bill Brightly]

Thank God Mike Keiser had the cash, courage and conviction to build Bandon Dunes. I think Ireland and Bandon will out perform Cabo, etal, as golfing destinations in the long run. I've played them all and would never go back to Cabo. Personally, I think the word is spreading.

[Garland Bayley]

Thank God Mike Keiser had the cash, courage and conviction to build Bandon Dunes. I think Ireland and Bandon will out perform Cabo, etal, as golfing destinations in the long run. I've played them all and would never go back to Cabo. Personally, I think the word is spreading.

After playing in Cabo, did you stop by the grill room to give Greg your thoughts?

I didn't think so.

[Bill Brightly]

What's your point Garland? I think I just told Greg how I feel.

And here is a cool aside: I just got back from a tourney at my club, and an acquaintaince who just finished reading Dream Golf at my suggestion told me he LOVED the book and is now planning a trip to Bandon. Word of mouth works!.

[Garland Bayley]

What's your point Garland? I think I just told Greg how I feel.

And here is a cool aside: I just got back from a tourney at my club, and an acquaintaince who just finished reading Dream Golf at my suggestion told me he LOVED the book and is now planning a trip to Bandon. Word of mouth works!.

My point is that Greg talks to people in the grill room of the 10 to 20 million dollar clubhouse. He concludes those people think quality is indicated by a 10 to 20 million dollar clubhouse. Sort of a self fulfilling prophesy. He needs to stand at the exit gate and catch guys like you on the way out.

[Greg Tallman]

Thank God Mike Keiser had the cash, courage and conviction to build Bandon Dunes. I think Ireland and Bandon will out perform Cabo, etal, as golfing destinations in the long run. I've played them all and would never go back to Cabo. Personally, I think the word is spreading.

Bill,

Why would you never go back to Cabo?

1. You hate perfect weather nearly EVERY day?2. You dislike an excellent golf line iine up offering 8-10 world class courses available on a daily basis?
3. You prefer wind. rain and "status" among the GCA crowd?
4. It's just the fashionable thing to say in this thread?
5. You watch too much CNN?
6. You are the close minded crowd that believes that Nicklaus, Jones, Norman, Dye et al are second tie hacks that have no no work worthy of a GCA member?
7. Doak and C&C have no courses there so the destination is not worthy of a real golfer like me?
8. I just don't like the golf?

For one individual to  say "the message is getting out" is a bit much.

[Greg Tallman]

Thank God Mike Keiser had the cash, courage and conviction to build Bandon Dunes. I think Ireland and Bandon will out perform Cabo, etal, as golfing destinations in the long run. I've played them all and would never go back to Cabo. Personally, I think the word is spreading.

Ignoring everything stated after "Bandon Dunes" I agree.

If you honestly believe Ireland will "outperform" Cabo and others then I simply say you are blinded by the "purist" glasses of this site (which provide a vision not unlike I see the golf world).

Thank the lord the owners of this site actually look at course design and not the price factor when discussing a facility.

[Roger Wolfe]

Cabo does have us all whipped on labor costs.  Four hundred Mexicans running around making $2 per hour bussed in and living in the walled off slum 5 miles away.  I have never been there... but am guessing I'm close! 

[Sean_A]

I don't know about word of mouth, but Cabo holds no interest for me as a golf destination at this point in my life.  The same could be said of practically every "sunny" destination mentioned.  It has nothing to do with the quality of the golf, only my aversion to resort golf and what are usually very high prices to pay for stuff I don't care about - such as the list of five things.  Talk to me in five years and maybe I will have changed my mind.  I also may be interested in taking a cruise too - in case there aere any travel agents out there.

Ciao    

[Greg Tallman]

Cabo does have us all whipped on labor costs.  Four hundred Mexicans running around making $2 per hour bussed in and living in the walled off slum 5 miles away.  I have never been there... but am guessing I'm close! 

Roger,

Operational costs here are not that much lower than in the States. What is saved in labor (less than one would imagine given the labor laws) is spent in other areas. Water is a big expense. 

As far as bussing them in from the walled off slums you are partially correct. Walled off slums harkens visions of the Dominican Republic which is a far different animal than Baja. In terms of the bussing, indeed we do provide transportation for most of the staff and in doing so incur a major expense. Ironically almost every hotel in the area must have had the same thought process as you as they never considered staff members driving their own vehicles (they never dreamed they could afford them) and have serious parking issues at this time.

[Bill Brightly]

Thank God Mike Keiser had the cash, courage and conviction to build Bandon Dunes. I think Ireland and Bandon will out perform Cabo, etal, as golfing destinations in the long run. I've played them all and would never go back to Cabo. Personally, I think the word is spreading.

Bill,

Why would you never go back to Cabo?

1. You hate perfect weather nearly EVERY day?2. You dislike an excellent golf line iine up offering 8-10 world class courses available on a daily basis?
3. You prefer wind. rain and "status" among the GCA crowd?
4. It's just the fashionable thing to say in this thread?
5. You watch too much CNN?
6. You are the close minded crowd that believes that Nicklaus, Jones, Norman, Dye et al are second tie hacks that have no no work worthy of a GCA member?
7. Doak and C&C have no courses there so the destination is not worthy of a real golfer like me?
8. I just don't like the golf?

For one individual to  say "the message is getting out" is a bit much.

Greg,

I will answer your question, but before I do, here is a piece of advice that you would do well to heed in this DG and in life: Do NOT guess at other people's motivations. You come across as either a fool or a wise-ass punk when you do, ok? (And I won't guess which one is true.)

I played 5 courses in Cabo and liked them all very much. They were challenging, scenic and well-maintained. A little expensive but worth it. However, there was not one that I felt like I wanted to go straight form the 18th green back to the first tee. Bandon has two courses, Pac Dunes and Old Mac, where I was dying to play them again. In Ireland, Royal County Downs is the ultimate "Go Straight To The First Tee Course" I have played, and there are 5 other courses like this in Ireland.

I can only speak English and I always feel less comfortable traveling to foreign countries where English is not the national language. I simply feel FAR more comfortable in Ireland and I really need to get to Australia and Scotland.

We traveled a bit out of the resort (my wife loves excursions) and we were saddened by the poverty. We went ten years BEFORE the negaive CNN stories and there were definitely several times we did not feel safe.

The weather in Cabo is beautiful, but we can go to Hawaii, San Diego, New Mexico, AZ or Florida to get similar weather. Since I am  melanoma survivor, I do not chase sunny destinations.

So while my wife and I enjoyed Cabo, we have about 20 other places we would rather go before we return to Cabo. We are going to Ireland his September with other couples (my 3rd time, wife's first.)

[Greg Tallman]

Greg,

I will answer your question, but before I do, here is a piece of advice that you would do well to heed in this DG and in life: Do NOT guess at other people's motivations. You come across as either a fool or a wise-ass punk when you do, ok? (And I won't guess which one is true.)

I played 5 courses in Cabo and liked them all very much. They were challenging, scenic and well-maintained. A little expensive but worth it. However, there was not one that I felt like I wanted to go straight form the 18th green back to the first tee. Bandon has two cour, Pac Dunes and Old Mac, where I was dying to play them again. In Ireland, oyal County Downs is the ultimate "Go Straight To The First Tee Course" I have played, and there are 5 other courses like this in Ireland.

I can only speak English and I alway feel less comfortable traveling to foreign countries where English is not the national language. I simply feel FAR more comfortable in Irelad and I really ned to get to Australia and Scotland.

We traveled a bit out of the resort (my wife loves excursions) and we were saddened by the poverty. We went ten years, BEFORE the negaive CNN stories and there were definitely several times we did not feel safe.

The weather in Cabo is beautiful, but we can go to Hawaii, San Diego, New Mexico, AZ or Florida to get similar weather. Since I am  melanoma survivor, I do not chase sunny destinations.

So while my wife and I enjoyed Cabo, we have bout 20 other places we would rather go before we return to Cabo. We are going to Ireland his Septembe with other couples (my 3rd time, wife's first.)
[/quote]

Thank you and this explanation has far different overtones than you original "I've played them all and would never go back" comment. Apologies if you felt attacked and I was not actually trying to identify your motivations but rather throwing out some of the areas attributes along with a few pet peeves in terms of design discussion and US news outlets... I only fogot the kitchen sink.

I find it hard ot believe that one would not feel safe in Cabo but to each his own. Many people mistake appearance and culture to imply something far more sinister than a nice guy in shabby clothing standing on the corner drinking a beer on a Sunday afternoon.

I don't doubt the quality of PacMac and those in Ireland, would love to spend a month over there at some point.

I appreciate you taking the time to expound on your original comment that frankly came off along the lines of "Cabo sucks and people are figuring it out" and thus the somewhat inappropriate tone of my response. Again, my apologies.

[Mike Demetriou]

T&G Question:
Does it follow that a course that provides T&G must not be an excellent course?

Or is it possible that an excellent course may also have a large T&G factor? (this T&G phrase is just awesome btw...)

My obsessive GCA lurker friend played FishTacoNational in Cabo in May. He was blown away by the course, and he loved the Fish Tacos. 

The point is, and I'm sort of tired of feeling this way when participating on GCA is that the course should come first, second and third, but I find the constant derision and slamming of courses that also provide a luxury component that some find silly to be frustrating.  It is indeed possible that an excellent course could go over the top with amenities, etc. but that shouldn't inform the critique as much as it does here.

[Charlie Goerges]

Good point/question Mike. The two needn't be mutually exclusive. And having a "signature" dish available at the turn would be much faster and more convenient than most of the alternatives. (That said, walking or riding, I'd be very likely to deposit gazpacho directly to the front of my shirt.)

[henrye]

One can simply not compare a Cabo to Ireland or Bandon.  There are different attractions to each and I would think that the percentage of tourists visiting Cabo or Ireland that are there for a strictly golf vacation are few.  Bandon offers golf.  Ireland & Cabo offer much much more.  The last few times I've been to Cabo, I think I only played a couple of rounds a week.

BTW Greg, those tacos at Cabo Del Sol are a nice touch, but I doubt your bookings would be impacted if you eliminated them.

[Anthony Gray]

  For the high end traveling golfer I would have to agree with Greg. I would throw in 4-5 star accomadations unless the location offers other activities other than golf.This thread is not about your local muni.

  Anthony

 

[Anthony Gray]

1. Fast greens - 12 or better
2. Lush green grass... everywhere
3. Unrelenting, long hard setup
4. 10-20 million dollar clubhouse
5. Comfort stations stocked with "goodies"
Honrable Mention/5A. - Waterfalls


Like it or not folks that is the typical golf consumer. Probably 80-90% of those that play golf judge whether or not a facility is a quality facility and worth the money.

Right or wrong, good or bad, Trump or Doak... It is what it is and it is not going to change.

What a bunch of made up nonsense.
 

  How about deep bunkers Garland?

  Anthony

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