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Adam Clayman

Re: Suspended Play because of Wind?!?
« Reply #25 on: July 16, 2010, 11:00:43 AM »
The big picture lesson to be garnered is one of excess. The game is out of balance because of the whims (and expectations) of the pampered players, and the big money made selling the latest and greatest I&B. Greens speeds are too fast due to these pampered expectations.  

Melvyn, Shhh! Their natural fear is that someone will find out. No doubt labeling anyone who does, as a crack pot. Have you ever been called a crack pot?
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Scott Warren

Re: Suspended Play because of Wind?!?
« Reply #26 on: July 16, 2010, 11:05:06 AM »
Forgive me if I am wrong, but didn't many people spend Tuesday through to Thursday lamenting that the greens were too soft and slow?

When high wind could arrive but very well might not, it's an inexact science. It's not as if they have them at 13.

So play was suspended for 30mins or so. It's not the end of the world. I just think this is evidence of us living in a world obsessed with apportioning blame, whether it's warranted or not.

Garland Bayley

Re: Suspended Play because of Wind?!?
« Reply #27 on: July 16, 2010, 11:13:16 AM »
Jack did not ground his putter before a putt for just this type of situation. He says there were several occasions where the ball moved as he was about to putt, but he was never penalized because of it. It seems the standard has changed from the good old days. ;)
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Wayne_Kozun

Re: Suspended Play because of Wind?!?
« Reply #28 on: July 16, 2010, 11:30:29 AM »
Why are people surprised by this?  I can remember it happening several times in the past - specifically it happened in the 1998 Open when O'Meara won.

Jay Kirkpatrick

Re: Suspended Play because of Wind?!?
« Reply #29 on: July 16, 2010, 11:40:31 AM »
Perhaps the more important question is: why can't the BBC hire any cameramen that can follow a golf ball in the air and on to a green?

Niall C

Re: Suspended Play because of Wind?!?
« Reply #30 on: July 16, 2010, 11:48:53 AM »
The big picture lesson to be garnered is one of excess. The game is out of balance because of the whims (and expectations) of the pampered players, and the big money made selling the latest and greatest I&B. Greens speeds are too fast due to these pampered expectations.  

Melvyn, Shhh! Their natural fear is that someone will find out. No doubt labeling anyone who does, as a crack pot. Have you ever been called a crack pot?

Adam,

To echo Scotts earlier comments, is your post meant to be funny ? Thats a serious question by the way. The green speeds are the same as they are at every Open ie. about 10 to 10.5 on the stimp. Todays a classic lesson why links greens aren't generally rollercoster rides or a lot faster than they are. And to say someone is pampered because they stick to the rules is pretty dumb IMHO.

Niall

Melvyn Morrow

Re: Suspended Play because of Wind?!?
« Reply #31 on: July 16, 2010, 12:15:58 PM »

To some of the caring and considerate members on this site I offer two pictures of TOC both with snow (pre Christmas).

The first is that of Old Tom on TOC 



The second is a water colour of the last match that Young Tommy played some 6 weeks before his death (25th December 1875), the wind was out and it was snowing. The only help being that Old Tom had the Greens cleared of snow but they were soon covered. He was ill then – not drunk having some 6 weeks earlier just lost his wife and child during child berth.



Some wind and the modern spoilt brats complain, I am sickened by our modern over paid golfers who must be pampered all the time. This is in part the result of making the game easy by allowing carts distance aids. Christ what the hell have we done to the game of golf.

To think my father died on the 1st Fairway in Jos Nigeria, but he was the true golfer in all his glory, walking in the hot afternoon sun and judging distance with his eyes. No talk of easy or carts. Also a Scottish Champion and Record Holder in his own right. Oh yes Pat he also swam in what was once the Olympic size outdoors swimming pool called The Step Rock at St Andrews. Hot nor cold phased him, he did not complain but just got on with it.

Melvyn

Jim_Kennedy

Re: Suspended Play because of Wind?!?
« Reply #32 on: July 16, 2010, 12:21:20 PM »
Thank you Mr. Cirba. Three of us were sitting around the shop this morning when play was suspended and I laid down a fin that there would be a thread about it on GCA within the hour.

I'm now ten-up.  ;D 
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Adam Clayman

Re: Suspended Play because of Wind?!?
« Reply #33 on: July 16, 2010, 12:33:38 PM »
Niall, My comment was about the state of the game, not this Open. I did not say they are pampered playing under the rules. What I said was that the modern player's expectations of faster greens speeds is a result of decades of making the sport softer (easier, less affected by the elements) by accommodating the spoiled whims of the professional player. For you to say that in every open, the greens speeds have been at 10-10.5 is unbelievable. (I won't call it dumb) Recent opens, yes. Every open , Hell no. If the speeds were at 9 would they have needed to suspend play?  How long ago was the open green speed @ 9? They should of prepared for the worst, wind wise, and left the greens at 9 like they were in the practice rounds (Tiger's number not mine).
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

TEPaul

Re: Suspended Play because of Wind?!?
« Reply #34 on: July 16, 2010, 12:37:00 PM »
"Do you have a choice when balls are moving on the greens? I ask this question honestly for the rules gurus out there.
Reports were it was happening all over."


George:

That's actually the most intelligent question on this thread. The so-called "Tournament Committee" makes that call and of course they have a choice if balls at rest on greens are blowing all over the place. Their choice is to suspend play or not suspend play, that's all, even if their decision is still in the realm of subjectivity and still a judgment call.

However, if balls at rest on greens really were moving with regularity due to the wind the intelligent choice is to suspend play until that particular condition is not likely to occur. If it was occuring with regularity and they chose not to suspend play they would be making a mockery of the tournament and the championship.

I would guess all the people on this thread who are screaming about the call to suspend play have probably never played in a tournament anything like this one or have never had a thing to do with golf or tournament administration.

This is not the same thing as some recreational round of golf in high winds and if the people screaming about the decision to suspend play have some notion it is or should be they are just wrong, in my opinion. And to be very clear, the decision does not revolve around the strength of the wind per se with all other shots, only if the wind is such that balls at rest on greens are being regularly blown and moved by the wind after being deemed to be at rest.

Again, very good question, George.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2010, 12:58:38 PM by TEPaul »

Mike Cirba

Re: Suspended Play because of Wind?!?
« Reply #35 on: July 16, 2010, 12:46:37 PM »
Jim,

Happy to be of service!  ;D

Pete_Pittock

Re: Suspended Play because of Wind?!?
« Reply #36 on: July 16, 2010, 12:48:16 PM »
Guys,
If the wind gusts (projected to 40 mph) picked up even slightly a ball up by the 11th flagstick could blow most of the way to the 7th flagstick.
Saw balls moved about 6 inches at most. It could be a sisyphean task.

Back in play after a 1:06 delay.

Sean Leary

Re: Suspended Play because of Wind?!?
« Reply #37 on: July 16, 2010, 01:56:50 PM »
Mickelson whined after his round today. Sarcastic whiny comments that the Tiger bashers would never have let go....


Melvyn Morrow

Re: Suspended Play because of Wind?!?
« Reply #38 on: July 16, 2010, 01:59:08 PM »


Sean

No, no comment, I just can't be bothered :-X

Melvyn

Garland Bayley

Re: Suspended Play because of Wind?!?
« Reply #39 on: July 16, 2010, 02:04:40 PM »
Did Phil whine? Well shame on him!

Some one please tell Phil not to go across the pond anymore.








Sean,

Phil always whines. Maybe we're bored with him. ;)
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Suspended Play because of Wind?!?
« Reply #40 on: July 16, 2010, 09:50:33 PM »


Guys  Its real links Golf, get over it

Melvyn

Melvyn,

Does "real" links golf include playing a stroke with a moving ball?  I don't think so.

I don't understand your point or anyone elses that has a problem with this.  What other option did they have? If you're going to tell me they shouldn't have the greens running at the speed they do, that's still not an answer, because at the point play was suspended, the conditions were the conditions and they had to deal with it.

JSlonis,

You're quite right.

Why would you want to insist on play when conditions would force rampant if not systemic penalties.

As to putting without grounding your club, has anyone objecting to the suspension of play, played in a medal play tournament with high winds buffeting the golf course ?

It's easier said than done.

The R&A made the right call.


TEPaul

Re: Suspended Play because of Wind?!?
« Reply #41 on: July 16, 2010, 10:58:15 PM »
Pat:

In my opinion, you're right and so is Jamie Slonis. Anyone on here who thinks the decision the R&A Tournament Committee made today was wrong to suspend play IF balls at rest were moving due to the wind, I don't think they know much about tournament golf or golf administration, and that would include people like Melvyn Hunter Morrow. What does he really know about tournament play or tournament golf administration? Has he ever actually played in a tournament like the British Open or has he ever been part of any golf or tournament administration?

It's a legitimate question but my guess is that I doubt it on both counts.

In my opinon, for him to say the R&A is like the IRA because they suspended play today because the incidence of balls at rest on putting greens was happening with too much regularity simply shows a certain lack of understanding of tournament golf and golf and tournament administration.

Niall C

Re: Suspended Play because of Wind?!?
« Reply #42 on: July 17, 2010, 09:34:13 AM »
Niall, My comment was about the state of the game, not this Open. I did not say they are pampered playing under the rules. What I said was that the modern player's expectations of faster greens speeds is a result of decades of making the sport softer (easier, less affected by the elements) by accommodating the spoiled whims of the professional player. For you to say that in every open, the greens speeds have been at 10-10.5 is unbelievable. (I won't call it dumb) Recent opens, yes. Every open , Hell no. If the speeds were at 9 would they have needed to suspend play?  How long ago was the open green speed @ 9? They should of prepared for the worst, wind wise, and left the greens at 9 like they were in the practice rounds (Tiger's number not mine).

Adam,

I withdraw my dumb remark and apologise, I didn't appreciate you were talking about the game in general, I took your comments to be about this Open. And certainly green speeds haven't been 10 to 10.5 for ever but I would hazard a guess that they have been for at least the last twenty odd years. According to Eddie Adams in 2000, the then Old Course head greenkeeper, the course is "always" set up for 10 to 10.5 for the Open.

It is interesting however to hear Mark James say on the BBC that the greens were slower in 1995. I would be happy to wager a fiver on that comment being wrong.

Niall

Melvyn Morrow

Re: Suspended Play because of Wind?!?
« Reply #43 on: July 17, 2010, 10:24:59 AM »

Tom

There is clearly a big gap between what you think you know about golf by that I mean real golf not this sitting down and riding everywhere using your electronic helper to advise club choice.  A real golfer knows golf is a walking game and that it was intended from the start for ones eyes to work out distance.

Now that we know we are talking about the same subject lets think – oh yes its Links Golf  it’s the Open  played on Links Courses which suffer or bask in (whichever is your preference) the glory of changeable weather.

I find it utterly amusing that you as an American playing a round in what is the average time over there 5-6 hours, cannot allow a minute or two for the wind to settle allowing the ball to rest. Its links golf open to the elements and generally governed by wind and rain.  Balls move on links courses from time to time, that’s part of the game and a little time should be allowed for settlement. But Niall make a good point, which I take a step further The R&A believe we have to pamper the Pros, break up the flow of the competition rendering the score for that day in real doubt and certainly unfair. Makes you wonder if it was not set up to aid Tiger after all had he not just started a round.

Talk about American courses as I cannot comment as have no info on them but dare to talk about me and TOC. Tom you know Sh~t about it and me come to that.

The facts of the matter are that The R&A are not governing they are making money, so looks like all their decisions seem to revolve around the money men .  As for technology they have ignore the question and subject, Allowing carts into a Walking Game and then artificial aids to advise on distances – that’s outside help – they are encouraging players to cheat. Think I am going to support a flawed institution who have their hands in the till making money out of golf while the game is ripped open allowing any form or aid. Yet worst still allowing a course to have a NO walking policy is just a total betrayal of the fundamental principles at the heart of the game of golf. Remember just a few months ago they said there was no problem, so ball roll back, God their heads are so far up their own backside they are feeding on their own lies. 

If one is a real golfer then you will want to see the game flourish, beautiful courses for golfers, not to sell homes, but there for the pleasure of the golfer. No cart track and only carts for those that need them, as for distance aids, they are just not needed taking away another vital part of the game the ability to think the game through on ones own. If you need distance info to work out which club to select, then just what the hell are you doing on a golf course in the first place. As for the pros they use the same day to day courses we use. More money needs to go to the clubs and not into the pockets of the Pros, to keep overall cost down  making Green fees more reasonable. Tell me is this on the R&A agenda or are they looking already to the next Open and the revenue it will create.

People don’t listen, that’s fine with me but like my early comments about Tiger some will wake up and see that I may have a point re the R&A as well.  At least I am trying to make people aware of potential problems, leaving it so that they can decide for themselves.

Melvyn   

TEPaul

Re: Suspended Play because of Wind?!?
« Reply #44 on: July 17, 2010, 11:00:18 AM »
Melvyn:

Perhaps you didn't notice but I think this thread is about the question of the "Committee's" responsibilities and latitude for suspending play due to excessive wind because balls particularly on putting greens will not remain at rest.

I don't think this thread is meant to be just another platform or soapbox for you to rip golf today, golf administration and golf administrators, carts, Americans, American golf and golfers and Tiger Woods!  

If people aren't listening to you or you suspect they aren't there may be a few more reasons for that than you have heretofore cited.  ;)
« Last Edit: July 17, 2010, 11:03:28 AM by TEPaul »

Melvyn Morrow

Re: Suspended Play because of Wind?!?
« Reply #45 on: July 17, 2010, 11:15:04 AM »

Tom

Very funny but by including my name you invite me to comment. As usual you have not read my post as it’s not about Tiger.

As for platform there are many guys like you on this site that believe your opinion is the only one that matters and you would like other to keep silence.

In other words a bully, trying to sensor the comments of others on this site. You forget the title it’s a Discussion Group - so it’s open like the golf on at St Andrews its open to all not just Americans who only agree with you.

As for soapbox , wow you dare to mention soapbox to anyone else on this site, you hypocrite .

Have a nice day

Melvyn
 

TEPaul

Re: Suspended Play because of Wind?!?
« Reply #46 on: July 17, 2010, 11:40:06 AM »
Melvyn:

I'm certainly not bullying you; I'm merely offering my opinions on what you say on here just as you do with others on here. My opinions are just my opinions and are not meant to shut anyone up. I think, at this point, we are all used to your opinions on various subjects since you offer them on here so much and so often. And I'm quite sure you will continue to do that. That's fine with me, but it probably will continue to include what I think of them. After-all, and as you say, this is a discussion group----and we offer our opinions on all kinds of things all the time.

Furthermore, if you are convinced that others are not reading what you say on here correctly, perhaps you should give more thought to what you write and how you write it.   ;)

You have a nice day too; why don't you watch The Open?----it's very cool to see despite yesterday's suspension of play and your most recent fit that the R&A is no different than the IRA!   ::) ??? :o ;)
« Last Edit: July 17, 2010, 11:44:44 AM by TEPaul »

Wade Schueneman

Re: Suspended Play because of Wind?!?
« Reply #47 on: July 17, 2010, 12:03:04 PM »
I played Lahinch in sustained 35 mph winds with gusts even higher.  You could not control your club on the backswing, balls wobbled on the fairways, balls were blown 10-20 feet from a standstill on some greens.  I thought it was fun (brutally fun)!  I am a bit saddened, however, about the dichotomous conditions the players experienced yesterday.  The best player is unlikely to emerge the victor when the pm scores are 5 strokes off the am.  
« Last Edit: July 17, 2010, 12:46:53 PM by Wade Schueneman »

JohnV

Re: Suspended Play because of Wind?!?
« Reply #48 on: July 17, 2010, 12:10:42 PM »
Melvyn, I suppose they were also at fault for stopping play when it got dark last night?  After all, the golf course didn't go away just because it got dark. But, since the TV cameras don't work so well at night, I'm sure it was also all about money in your opinion. ;)

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Suspended Play because of Wind?!?
« Reply #49 on: July 18, 2010, 02:51:01 PM »
JVB,

That was very funny.

JSlonis got it right.

In a medal play tournament, especially one of this significance, no one wants to see a player, group of players or the entire field penalized for incidents beyond his/their control.

A gust of wind or a steady wind that moves the ball while the player is addressing the ball or after the player has addressed the ball is a penalty that prudent minds avoided by suspending play.

What would be the purpose of NOT suspending play under those conditions ?

 

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