[Paul Richards]

Ran:

A few responses to your thoughts:

I like your idea about a hidden gem list.  I'm looking forward
to seeing Lookout Mountain at the end of the month, so I
will have a comment or two about it.

Re: Doral - I've played it both pre- and post- the changes
by Raymond Floyd and then Jim McLean.  It's a real fun and
interesting course, but if it's a Top 100 Modern, it is closer to
#100 than #50.

Old Memorial - great bunkering and interesting course based
on nearly dead-flat property.  Since water seeks its level, it fell because it was WAY too high before.  It's found its proper
place now.

Kohler - have played them all.  River course is spectacular
and probably on the list in the space it deserves.  The
Meadow Valley course has some good holes, but, overall
it's quite a letdown compared to the River.  If you're playing
36 there, ALWAYS play the Meadow Valley first, followed by
the River.  If you play it the other way, you'll just end up
being disappointed!

The Irish course - don't bother.  Play the Straights course
twice instead.  There's nothing new to the Irish, in fact it's
quite disappointing.  Once again, if you must play it, play it
first and follow up with the Straights.

As I've stated in previous threads, I agree with you
totally and think that the Kapalua Plantation course is a
top 20 Modern.  The fact that it popped 13 spots is a good
start.  Maybe next year it can go up another 50!

As are you, I'm impressed by the number of hits from such an
"anti-list" crowd.  Personally, I find the lists quite interesting.  Each magazine sort of covers a different spot and they usually make for good discussion.

Cheers,
Paul

[David Wigler]

I am happy with the list in general.  A few things that I can attribute to personal preference but IMO only one glaring error.  Is there anybody out there who has played Firestone South and any of Champions, Lehigh, Franklin Hills, Monterey Peninsula Dunes, Westchester, Bel-Air, Yale, or Mountain Lake Club?  I found Firestone to be very ordinary.  A 4 1/2 – 5 on the Doak scale.  I am absolutely shocked that it finished ahead of Franklin Hills (Which I really like), Bel-Air (Which I love), and Mountain Lake (Which is a fun walk back in time).  Firestone just does not feel like a top 100 to me.  The seven courses behind it that I have seen are all vastly superior.

Ran,

I played Doral in December.  It is a nice golf course (4 1/2 - 5 on the Doak scale).  It would be very out of place on a top 100 list.  The land is uninteresting and the shaping does nothing to draw out interest in the property.  Given that #100 was Barona, I would play Barona 20 times before Doral.  BTW, I found it interesting that Barona did not make GD's best new list while Shepard’s Hollow did and yet Barona made GW's top 100 list.  GW got that one right – congratulations Todd, you deserve it.

[mike nuzzo.]

Matt, Brad & all.
As Pinon Hills is not on the list and Paa-ko by one persons estimations is too low, do you think they compete with each other?  Both designed by Ken Dye and several hours from each other in a state (New Mexico) not regularly visited.
Matt when were you at Paa-Ko?  Any specific favorite thoughts?
Thanks

[BCrosby]

Brad -

It seems to me that dividing the GW rankings into classical and modern is not just a good idea, I think it is far and away the best way to rank courses.

It's hard enough to compare Spyglass and Pacific Dunes, as GW raters do.

But you attain a  Pythonesque silliness when trying to compare - with a straight face - Myopia Hunt Club and TPC Sawgrass.  Or The Chicago CC and, say, Victoria National.  I don't understand how people fill out those kinds of ballots without a whole lot of giggling.    

The GW division reduces that silliness somewhat.  That is a good thing.

To follow up on an earlier suggestion, it would make a lot of sense to make 1945 the classical/modern breakpoint.

First, due to the rapid evolution of earth moving equipment during WWII (The Seabees had a profound effect on the development of the bulldozer), courses built after the war were the first built where earth-moving became a realistic option.

Second, the rise of RTJones and Dick Wilson just after WWII marked a major tourning point in cga - both in how courses "looked" and in their playing strategy. Peachtree is in almost every relevant respect a "modern" course.  Ditto with Firestone.

Put differently, both courses are better seen as the progenitors of modern courses built later in the 50's and 60's.  It seems off the mark to see them as end-of-the classical era courses.

Just some thoughts.

Bob

[Jim_Kennedy]

Ran,
If the lists were pre-war and post-war then the Korean War might be more definitive than WW11.  C&W noted that "The decade following WW11 saw the deaths of nearly all the pioneer golf course designers"  They go on to list many who died between '48 and '55, such as: Ross, Braid, Colt, Alison, W. Dunn Jr., J.D.Dunn, Pryde, Maxwell, Thompson, Stiles, Bell, Tucker and Hawtree. It also notes that "With few exceptions, all had courses on their drawing boards at the time of their deaths".  
Much of the activity post WW11 is attributed to reconstruction with '53 being the year that the profession of architecture really came on strong, with "about 100 courses per year opening in the last 8 years of the decade."
I'm not sure what difference '53 would have as a cut-off date for the courses Tom MacWood cited, but it appears to be a date that better coincides with the near complete changing of the guard.

[BCrosby]

Jim -

The changing of the guard - effectively - occurred well before the actual date that the last Golden Ager passed away.   By the late forties, most were tired, sick, broke and far from doing their best work.  

The day that Bobby Jones chose RTJones, not one of the survivors from the Golden Age, to design his new golf course in Atlanta signalled the change in architectural eras.

Bob

[David Wigler]

One more question from me,

I just got my Golfweek and was reviewing the best public access by state.  Bali Hai in Las Vegas’s placement blew me away.  I always figured it was a "Jam job" on inadequate land, bordered by an airport, with little of value.  It is aesthetically very unique with all of the imported sand, trees, etc.  I will admit that I have never played it but have seen it from the ground and had a terrific view of it from my room at Mandalay Bay.  I like Royal Links (Walters Golf's other premiere property) but never really considered it world class.  Bali Hai finished ahead of some very solid work at Paiute and one of Nicklaus's best public works at Reflections Bay.  Has anyone played it?  Is it worthy of the high regard GW placed it in?

[Ken_Cotner]

Wow, Cuscowilla #10M ahead of TPC Sawgrass and Ocean Course?  I have to see it!  Did Cuscowilla move much from last year?

KC

[Mike Vegis @ Kiawah]

Cuscowilla was #11 in 2001 and #22 in 2000.

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

I agree the changing of the guard actually occured before the Korean war. It really started at the time of the Depresion and was complete by WWII. It seems odd that the works of RTJ and Dick Wilson would be segregated by the 1960 date between Classic and Modern. By moving the date back to WWII all of their works would be considered part of the same era.

I agree Firestone-South popularity is somewhat of a mystery (and another course that looks out of place being classified as Classic). On the other hand I beleive Firestone-North is under appreciated and deserves consideration on the Modern list. One of the wildest designs of its era and one of my favorite RTJ designs.. In my opinion it is much more interesting than the South.

[David Wigler]

Ken,

I have played Cuscowilla several times and really like it (It is a solid Doak 8 IMO).  That written, #10 is a little high for me.  It is in some really rarified air ahead of Ocean Course, Double Eagle, Victoria National, Harbor Town, etc.  In fact, everyone I know who has played both Chechesee #59 and Cuscowilla, preferred Chechesee.  My gut is that Chechesee will move up next year and Cuscowilla will fall as these are both C&C's and within two hours from each other.  I do not know, but suspect that the difference between #10 & #59 is less than ˝ of a point and I suspect that both courses will settle into their rightful places after several years.

If you have not played Cuscowilla yet, go play it.  The greens and bunkering are absolutely phenomenal.  The tee shot on the cape hole (#10) is the best tee shot I have played anywhere in the region (Have not been to Augusta).  #11 is a fantastic short hole with a maniacal front pin.  I will stop, go see it.

[David Wigler]

Tom,

More common ground  .  I find the North more interesting than the South as well.

[mike nuzzo.]

Matt, Brad & all.
As Pinon Hills is not on the list and Paa-ko by one persons estimations is too low, do you think they compete with each other?  Both designed by Ken Dye and several hours from each other in a state (New Mexico) not regularly visited.
Matt when were you at Paa-Ko?  Any specific favorite thoughts?
Thanks

[Ben Cowan-Dewar]

In the West Virginia rankings, GW has Snowshoe ahead of Old White.  I am not arguing the decision, though I imagine it is pretty close.  What I wonder is, whether it would detract from the modern list if Old White (unranked on Classical) finished ahead of Snowshoe, which is 64th M?

Also, I was very surprised to see the Irish course in third spot in WI ahead of Meadows Valley.

[Paul Richards]

Ken:

I'd have to side with you on this one.  I've seen Cuscowilla
and it's wonderful, but it's not better than TPC-Sawgrass
or The Ocean Course.

[Jim_Kennedy]

BCrosby
I see your point. The '48 construction of Peachtree would be a good date. The '46 reconditioning and remodeling of some holes at ANGC might also be considered. Wasn't this the first time a so-called modern architect touched up a classic era course?

Tom Macwood,
I see your point about the change probably happening before WW11 although I like the idea of having RTJ and Wilson's works available to both categories. So many of the modern guys got their starts in the offices of the architects that make up the Classic list that having a couple of crossovers highlights the continuum that is so apparent when reading their bios.  



  

[wsmorrison]

David Wigler

I have played Bali Hai twice.  The price is high, even by Vegas standards, I think it was $300-325.  It is not a good course.  There are vast waste areas that we could not hit out of (not sure why or if it is always the case), planes constantly flying low overhead, confined space, and slow play.  I did not enjoy the golf.  I don't like the unnaturalness of the golf courses in the area and of the city itself, not to mention the women.  I managed to never go to Vegas for my first 45 years and then went twice in two months for a conference and a corporate Ryder Cup style tournament.  I would not go for another 45 years and be satisfied.  For golf, there are many resort areas I'd rather go to.  But the roller coaster at NYNY, or whatever it is called, was great!  

My favorite resorts:
1.  Pebble Beach
2.  American Club
3.  Homestead
4.  Greenbrier
5.  Pinehurst

[Paul Richards]

Dave:

Don't know if Bali Hai is any good or not, but my good friend,
Dan Jennings has the course record there (I think it's
a 67).

[Matt_Ward]

Mike Nuzzo:

Hard to believe that Pinon Hills is not a member of the best 100 modern. The Ken Dye layout is clearly a gem and also is one of the very best taxpayer owned courses in the USA -- in my mind only Bethpage Black is better in that same type of category.

Paa Ko Ridge also suffers because of the ignorance of many to how improved New Mexico golf has come in such a short time.

I really see the course as being EASILY among the top 50 and to date from what I've seen of Ken Dye layouts his best yet (kudos to GW for the great profile on KD!). The course is much, much more than eye candy. You'd better hit the ball straight as the fairways tumble in all sorts of directions. My only concern is the hard turn at the long par-4 8th -- I just wish Ken had softened the curve to allow the golfer to shape the shot into the bend.

There are number of holes where you can flex your muscles off the tee but you'd better be straight. I give Ken the highest of credit for including long par-3's in the equation -- the 8th and 14th at Paa Ko are a real treat from the tips as they play 265 and 272 yards respectively. And, before some know-it-all chimes in with "don't forget the altitude," keep in mind you're still going to need plenty of stick. Also, the concluding finish is a wonderful assortment of holes that cap your round in grand style. Anyone going to the "Land of Enchantment" had better make a quick visit to Paa Ko Ridge --you will not be disappointed one iota.

Mike, I played Paa Ko Ridge in late August of 2000 and also had the opportunity to trek up to Sedalia, CO and play Sanctuary. In my mind no contest -- Paa Ko wins hands down and the facility was clearly deserving as the "best new affordable" course by GD that year.

Best of all, credit the management with keeping Paa Ko Ridge with affordable rates given the "hand-in-pocket" approach you see with so many daily fee layouts today. I'm looking forward to the nee 9 holes that are being developed for Paa Ko.

Couple of quick comments on the public ratings ...

How does Shaker Hills (Silva design) in Harvard, MA not make the Bay State's top 10?

How does George Wright deserve #2 billing in the same state?

How does Pine Hill in NJ NOT make at minimum the top ten in the Garden State? Pine Barrens is #2?  

The Trophy Club only the 5th best public in the Hoosier State? Why no mention of Purgatory -- superb Ron Kern design just outside of Indy.

Aspen Glen is #2 in Colorado?

Olde Stonewall is #1 in the Keystone State?

How does Saratoga National (the superb Roger Rulewich course just outside of Albany) not even make the top ten in the Empire State? In my mind the course is a solid candidate for inclusion among the top five -- can't believe people would rate Centennial and LI National ahead of it.

No P.B. Dye GC in top five in Maryland? In my mind it's clearly better than Whiskey Creek and Rum Pointe. No Painted Dunes Desert GC (Ken Dye design in El Paso) among top ten in the Lone Star State?

Kudos though to GW for its placing of Wolf Creek as #2 in the Silver State and for the inclusion of Barone Creek in the top 100 modern.  

More to follow ...

[Mike_Cirba]

Matt,

What "State" rankings are you talking about?  

[Patrick Hitt]

Mike C et al,
Look here http://www.golfweek.com/features/For the state by state lists go to Top 100 Classics

[APBernstein]

I just checked the state-by-state rankings.

Is it odd that I, as a panelist, resident of the state, and generally well versed on golf in the state, have never heard of Locust Hills, ranked 5th in West Virginia?  As long as that sentence was, I'm still confused.

Checked golfcourse.com.  Apparently, it is an Ault and Clark design from 1991 in Charles Town (read: basically northern Virginia/Maryland) that features an island green on the 424 yard 12th.  Also, it features 35 acres of water.

I haven't played it, so I will save judgement.  But I know of a few courses that, on the surface, seem about a thousand times more deserving.

I am interested to hear if anyone have played it...?

[Paul Richards]

Mike and Andrew:

Just so you are clear, the list you referred to is the "best in
state public" courses.

I'd like to see each state broken down as best in state,
including the private tracts.

[Paul Richards]

One of my biggest surprises on the lists was the fact that
Butler National fell off the modern list.

Butler, IMHO, is definately a Top 50 Modern course.

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

Paul
What do you like about Butler?

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