Golf Week's new rankings

[Paul Richards]

JP:

Thanks for posting both lists.

[BillV]

Like redanman, I'm disappointed Inniscrone fell. It's puzzling.
Was Applebrook eligible for this year's list?

Craig

Applebrook was open way too late in the year for consideration.  

[Don_Mahaffey]

Arizona Golf Courses ranked in top 100 modern. My smile rating system;

19 The Rim (haven't seen it)
20 Desert Forest
25 Forest Highlands
39 Quintero
30 Estancia    (thanks BillV, I haven't played it, but I have no idea how AS could be rated 6th best in the state. Conditioning maybe? But on architectual merit???)

56 Apache Stronghold
60 The Gallery
82 Talking Stick
92 Troon

GW raters help me out. What did everyone see at Quintero? Those other 8 courses are all great tracks, but how did Quintero end up on this list? All four par threes are downhill, and when I played it I hit three 6 irons and one 5 iron. Can a course where all the par 3s play identically be one of the best 100 in the country?

The one gripe I have about desert courses is on most of them you could be dropped blindfolded into the middle of them and not tell them apart. The other eight course on this list all have a uniqueness to them that separates them from the also-rans. What separates Quintero?

[BillV]

Arizona Golf Courses ranked in top 100 modern. My smile rating system;

You forgot

30 Estancia    26 higher than:

56 Apache Stronghold

Yeah, sure.

[Ran Morrissett]

Brad, I agree with Tom - fully restored (or as fully restored as possible) the courses that would jump the most would be Yale by 80 some spots, Bel Air by 80 some spots, Beverly could go from not ranked to somewhere in the 40-50s, and Eastward Ho! could get into the 40-50s with not too much work.

It will be very interesting to track the rise of the fully restored Augusta CC which re-opens in April - the word is that Silva's work is excellent, as was Ross's original design.

[Doug Wright]

Happy to see Minikahda on the list, a very good Ross course in Minneapolis with some wonderful greensites and a fine routing over rolling terrain. Some news there also, as the course will undergo a restoration this summer to restore bunkers and remove trees. ALthough one never knows, the vibes I get for this restoration are positive.

All The Best,

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

I'm disapointed that Victoria National showed up at #28, although I'm not surprised I predicted a couple months ago it would drop. Are there 27 modern courses better than it?

The Golf Club dropping from 6 to 9 -- behind Whistling Straits, Pete Dye GC, Honors and Muirfield Village. I believe it remains Dye's single best design - better than Casa de Campo in my opinion. I wonder if the raters have difficulty access the course.

East Lake, Point O'Woods, Firestone, Peachtree, Dunes, NCR and Congressional look out of place on the Classic list. I'd change the date from 1960 to WWII which give the Modern list more stability which it currently lacks and would open a few more spots for deserving courses like Eastward Ho!, Oyster Harbors, Skokie, Charles River, Inwood, Cape Arundel and the like.

I'd have disagree with Andrew, Skokie was worthy of a ranking in the top 100 even before the most recent restoration. I like Moraine, but why it continues to rise is a mystery to me - I thought its place around #70 last year was a bit high. And I'm very confused why Eastward Ho! has never cracked the top 100. I noticed Cape Cod National didn't make the list, I'm wondering if many make it to Chatham.

Why do you think Inniscrone fell so drastically and why doesn't Tobacco Road get more support?

[Brad Klein]

Appreciate all the comments, criticism and observations on the Golfweek course ratings lists. They are an incredible amount of work to assemble, manage and do right. Some have pointed out some interesting issues. AllI can tell you is that I wish it were that easy to get 15 raters to head out to see the newly restored Lookout Mountain. Like everyone else, our raters have lives, travel schedules, priorities, and 78 other course that merit scrutiny.

I'm traveling now, but when I get the time to sit down and sort out the concerns I'll answer them in detail on this Web site. Meanwhile, thanks for paying them attention and giving them this scrutiny. That's what makes this whole process worthwhile.

I find it interesting, by the way, that no one has challenged the central premise of this rating system, namely the basic difference between Classical and Modern.

[Scott_Park]

I am still amazed at how Old Tabby can maintain its relatively high position on the Modern List.  Other than a few nice holes it is very dull.

Will someone please enlighten me?

SP

[Jim_Kennedy]

Brad,
That difference(Classical/Modern) is probably the most worthwhile part of either list, for me anyway.

[RJ_Daley]

Clearly at 100 Barona has the greatest potential to jump up in the ratings.  I'd bet on it setting some sort of record for the greatest amount of numbers moving up in one year when more of the raters get to it in the coming year.  In terms of the coveted conditions of firm and fast on a generously wide track that can offer all the cliche enjoyments of great playability at forward tees for higher handicappers and a stern test at the tips, I would put it in the league with Wild Horse.  

Most interesting is seeing Red Mike ND hanging in there.  They also must be setting some sort of record for perserverance on a top 100 list while trading hands for $485K take all.  Brad should keep a statistic on valuation of the course to position on top 100 list as a ratio.  Call it something like " best bargain golf ratio"...  

[Coral_Ridge]

A few years ago I noticed in a Pro Shop that Golfweek had rated each state's best courses.  Sort of like GD does every couple of years now, in addition to the 100 Best.  My memories fail me sometimes.  Was it Golfweek and do they still do it?

[Tohell Widratings]

this list is a joke. isnt reason enuff for congress to pass a motion that all panels be promptly banned from the face of the planet and all panelists be forbidden to ever enter any golf course ever again?

i say to hell wid all of this nonsense and let golf courses stand on there own merit.

rumor also has it that golfweek panelists now have to pay a stipend to be member of their illustrious panel.

for all of you golfweek panelists out there, doesnt it seem odd to you that golfweek uses your ratings for their benefit by charging advertisers and then charge you?

[Paul Richards]

Ran:

You hit the nail on the head with your comments re: Beverly CC.

Once the Ron Prichard Master Plan has been implemented,
there's no reason Beverly shouldn't jump into the top 40-50
Classic courses.

Brad:
Looking forward to your response in "sorting out the concerns."

ToHell Widratings:
If you have something negative to say, be a man and post
your real name.  

[Ben Cowan-Dewar]

When did Applebrook open?  I was surprised that Mayacama was already up for review.

These rankings are great because of the separation.  Keep up the good work.

[SL_Solow]

Paul;  I was given a "sneak" look at the Beverly plan and I only hope that your membership allows its full implementation.  It will take an outstanding track and take it to its full potential.  I concur in your assessment of its likely effect on Beverly's stature.  I also second your remarks regarding our most recent anonymous critic.  While I do not want to stifle free expression posts of this type do not advance the discussion.
Brad; The 2 list system is a fine innovation and makes for interesting contrasts.  It does not rob any other list of its interest but by bringing a different analytical perspective it helps sharpen our focus and adds to the discussion.

[Paul Turner]

Sleepy Hollow??

Was it close?

[brad_miller]

Is Wykagyl as good as its ranking?? Having not played it, what can I say, but there is some fine New York metro golf that this ranks WELL ahead of. Comments from those that know are welcome. (not on GD list of 25 best in NY State, not that I follow this that closely)

[Ran Morrissett]

A few more observations:

1. Relative to the other rankings, GW gives a consistent thumbs down to Ross courses that have been severely tampered with - Scioto (#51), Oak Hill (#41) and Inverness (#44) are well below the GOLF and GD rankings. One would assume such might be the case in an effort run by Dr. Klein  

2. Brad, Have you considered dropping the high and low vote for each course? If a man gives a course (like Inniscrone) a 3 while everyone else is 6 or higher, that is more a reflection on the man than it is on the course - why hold a personal bias against a course?

Also, why not have a hidden gem list for a course like Lookout Mountain that a) didn't receive the minimum required 15 votes but b) based on the ones it did, would have made the list. Such a list would help prioritize courses for panelists, who have limited time as you say.

3. I agree with Tom Mac's suggestion of having the break point in the two rankings be pre and post WWII, which would have the resulting benefits that he stated.

4. The # of New England courses seems light. I assume not enough panelists played Charles River? What about The Orchards - I don't see it on the list? Winchester? Crump-in Fox? Cape Cod National? More Rhode Island courses? Pity to see Ekwanok drop out.

5. Doral impressed me yesterday - does anyone else think it should be on the modern list?  

6. Something must be going on for Old Memorial to fall 43 spots in one year?

7. In light of PacDunes grand opening, I thought Bandon Dunes held up well by only dropping two spots (which is a good thing given some of its improvements like the re-positioned 15th tee).

8. Given Kohler's marketing muscle, I am surprised that the Meadow course and/or Irish Straits didn't squeeze onto the top 100 modern. I have seen neither but my brother is a great fan of the Meadow course.

9. Despite its 13 slot rise, Kapalua at #71 must qualify as the least understood design in the country?  

10. Given all the anti-ranking rhetoric, it's always amusing to see such threads zoom past the 1,000 and 2,000 hit mark  

Cheers,

[Ben Cowan-Dewar]

Ran you raise a couple of good points.

Meadows is not the ugly cousin to the River that these rankings might show.  I like the course a great deal.  Unfortunately I have not played enough of the modern courses at the bottom of the list to comment.  I thought Golf Mag ranking of 7th for River and 27th (i think) for Meadows among public courses seemed about right.  I do not know where that would put it though.  I do not believe the Irish course is on the same level as the other three.

Agree on Kapalua.

I like the rankings, for better or worse they are always one of the issues I look forward to.  Even when Banff is placed at 45th in Canada.

[Keith Williams]

Everybody has reported at length of the presence of Pete Dye courses on the modern listing, but little has been said of The Honors Course and its (perennial) lofty ranking.  How does everyone think it stacks up in the mix?

[Patrick Hitt]

Here is the link for the lists on the web.  http://www.golfweek.com/features/
Hopefully the next year will bring Skokie CC into the Top 100.
The Rodney Dangerfield Award this year went to another favorite of mine, Monroe Golf Club in Rochester. I know Brad had a lot of nice things to say when he saw it and I was happy to see it get a little press.

[Mike_Cirba]

At the very least, give us credit for getting the number one classic course right, unlike another well-known publication!  

[Ran Morrissett]

Keith,

Despite Stone's work, The Honors has too much PB in it (i.e. unnecessary manufactured features at odds with its rustic setting) to warrant that high spot - heck, the 7th hole alone   should knock it out of the top 10.

Of course, when you create one of the game's all time GREAT playing environments, such things tend to be ignored as panelists gets blinded by the experience.

If Black Creek had the set-up of The Honors (no housing, super cool facilities, etc.), would Black Creek merit being ranked higher based on the merit of its golf holes?

Food for thought though we'll never know.

Cheers,

[Matt_Ward]

I wanted to review the comments of a great many people I respect and to answer Pat on my feelings about Somerset Hills.

Pat, most of the times I've played SH the greens have been as close to the edge in speed as you can play. That's what makes the course without doubt. If you played the course when they are slow the whole magic of SH is diminished big time. Since Tillie did not have much property to work with there are a number of holes that are short. Even long hitters must pay heed when approaching the greens.

Take for example just two holes you mentioned. The 10th, is a relatively short par-5 that I can usually reach without straining. However, the second shot must fly beyond the upslope that guards the green and still sit quietly before rolling into trouble beyond. The green is extremely testing and many a time I've seen players get there in two but three-jack it!

The 11th, may be one of the best medium-range par-4's I've played. Nicknamed "perfection" the 403 yard hole demands pinpoint placement. I've seen all types of numbers on this hole. Even after you hit the fairway the approach usually is with a mid to short iron depending upon one's length to a green sloped from back to front. Again, if you land too far to one side the demands of a side-hill putt will grab many players.

I said before the finale is really a let down because even though the green is small and somewhat titled the demands are really ho-hum to so many other holes on the course.

Do I see SH as 30th in the classic listing as cited by Golfweek? That's a stretch because some of the courses you listed that are also from NJ ... Forsgate / Banks Course, Essex County, Hollywood, are also no less demanding in their own way. Maybe others on the GW panel can explain their feelings on the courses you and I have listed and where they stack up against SH.

One last comment for now ... as someone very familiar with AZ golf I can't for the life of me know how Quintero and The Rim are rated so high? Did anyone venture over to Desert Mountain's Chiricuhua course? How about Chapparal Pines?
I've played The Rim and Quintero and don't see how the former (plenty of great scenery & service) merits the position  it has. And Quintero is loaded with a repetitive feature of downhill par-3's, to name just one shortcoming. Both are fun courses to play, however, the competition in the Grand Canyon State merits a closer inspection at a few other layouts.

One last comment for now -- Paa Ko Ridge and The Kingsley Club should also have been much higher than they are.

More to come ...