[GeoffreyC]

My biggest surprise with the new modern list was the fall of Inniscrone off the list.   This is a travesty in my opinion as there is more really fine architecture on that course then most still on the list or newly ranked.  This course also elicits more visceral opinions then most as well. I know of one nameless GW rater who hates the course. I guess there are more then one because I know many who really appreciate the great work done there.

[Matt_Ward]

Ran:

Happy to see your comments / re: your brother's visit and thoughts on The Kingsley Club. I think this is a club that will definitely blossom over the course of time. Kudos to Mike DeVries for a design that encapsulates so much style and character. Any person visiting Arcadia Bluffs MUST try to arrange an opportunity for TKC even though it's private. You will not be disappointed.

Happy to hear about Lehigh and I think those who had trumpeted the virtues of the course (i.e. Mark Fine, among others) deserve praise for pointing out a Flynn gem that has for too long gone underappreciated. Just wish the course could add one or two really long par-4's to compliment it's good array of holes.

Looking forward to seeing Fenway again this year from all the good things mentioned by so many people.

I also would like to say that Wykagyl is a decent course, but no where in the league as other Westchester heavyweights. To be included in such elite company is puzzling at best.

As far as Somerset Hills is concerned I personally applaud the gain even though the 18th is as weak a finishing hole as the 18th at Cypress Point. As a personal opinion, if the course could add just a bit more length I think it would be even better. Play the course when it's firm and fast and the putting surfaces will really show who can control the flat stick. I'm also thrilled to see the notice finally paid to Hollywood -- for too long this NJ course has been lost in the shuffle. Superb course and well earned recognition. I actually see Hollywood as being among the top five in the Garden State.

One last item for now -- how Skokie got lost in the mix is truly disappointing. Wonderful restoration effort by Ron Pritchard.

[APBernstein]

It isn't accurate to say that just because a course did not make the rankings this year that it has been "ignored".

Take Skokie for example.  I have not played it, but it can still be used as an example.  It may well be a wonderful restoration.  But it could take a year or two longer for enough raters to see it to really have that restoration take effect.  One year is simply not a lot of time.

As for Inniscrone, I know some who swear by it and some who don't.  I am somewhere in the middle, but I can assure you my vote didn't cause it to slide off the Top 100.

As for Lehigh, I have no regrets for trying to get raters to see this course.  It is well worth it.

As for Chechessee, amen!  This course deserves every bit of praise it receives.  Excellent.

Ran:

I rate Pete Dye Golf Club above Harbour Town.  After playing the two a few more times, I see that the Ocean Course and Pete Dye are on the same level, and my ratings have reflected that opinion.

[Paul Richards]

Ran:

I second your comments on Whistling Straights.

[Craig Rokke]

The ebb and flow of these rankings is sometimes interesting.
I remember checking a succession of annual rankings of Flynn courses and nearly all of them had climbed a number of spots over those 3 or 4 years. Now it sounds like almost all of them dropped.

[Ben Cowan-Dewar]

I third Whistling Straits, but I cannot understand how Pete Dye GC is not higher on Ran's list.  I know you that 12 is not the most appreciated holes, but what else is not to like?

I thought 2,3, 5, 6, 7 (maybe) 8, 10 (minus falls), 11, 13, 14, 16, 18 were all solid.  With only 12 being a dog and 1 close behind.

I guess my evaluation fits with GW's modern, where did PDGC finish this year?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Matt Ward and SPDB,

I'm glad we agree on Wykagyl.

Matt, with respect to Somerset Hills, what's your take on the strength or tactical merit of holes  #'s 3, 4, 6, 10, 11, 14, 17, and 18 ?

Take Ran's match play test with
Hollywood VS Somerset
Knoll         "       "
Essex County
Mountain Ridge
Forsgate
Montclair 2 & 4
Hackensack ?
Manasquan River

I like Somerset Hills, but........                                            

[BillV]

I see Geoffrey's comment that Inniscrone fell off the modern list!  Not having a copy of the list yet, this is the first I have heard.  I have to agree with Geoffrey, for this course not to be even on the list makes me shake my head.

I also never beat anyone over the head to play Inniscrone, but I have been vocal of the "Throwing out of the baby with the bathwater" regarding this course.  I'll agree 10 is a problem hole, but beyond that there's a lot of misunderstanding of that golf course. It can be pretty demanding in places. One of the best match play courses in the modern era.

I also believe that it is a classic case of "It's a terrible course" because someone didn't play it well as it exposed weaknesses in their games or they couldn't figure out the options.  1,2,3,4,6,9,12,13, 14, 15, 17 and even 11 are incredibly, incredibly good holes.  5 is cute, (a good "save" considering how it had to be changed to accommodate the eco-terrorists), does not deserve the vitriol it receives-clear misunderstanding of the game of golf if you think this is a bad hole, though), 7 and 8 are good holes (If 8 is a terrible hole than Victoria National #16 is a horribly bad hole-same problem, too long a back tee.  So what?)  16 and 18 being more complicated and relatively unidimensional respectively, so late in the  round also may have more impact on the overall opinion for uninitiated or inexperienced.

But then again maybe I just don't really know much of anything. But off the list is ridiculous.

[Ran Morrissett]

For me, Pete Dye GC is a let down in two key areas: its one shot holes and its short/medium two shotters.

The 4th with its man-made lake, the 7th which has a ridiculously high tee (which Dye refused to build but the club did so anyway), the 13th which is solid, and the 16th which is tough but a fairly boring one shotter for late in the round, especially by Dye's own high standards. Good but nothing great in that collection.

The 1st, 3rd, 6th, 12th, and the controversial 17th are OK as a group but OK = 5M ranking by GW? Are we sure about that?  

Don't get me wrong - I like Pete Dye GC plenty with 2, 5, 14 (!), and 18 being among his best work anywhere. I don't understand how it could possibly fall off Golf Digest's top 100 but nor do I understand how it could be 5M either based on my perception of the 9 holes that I mentioned above.

Cheers,

[Josh Mahar]

I find the golfweek rankings very interesting because of the volatility they bring to the ratings game.  They always generate plenty of discussion on this board at least.  
Anyway I am most interested in how my beloved Wild Horse did this year.  We were certainly surprised by our high ranking last year.  For those of you with the list already--could you fill me in on our position.  Thanks.

[Ran Morrissett]

Josh, Wild Horse rose another 9 spots, to #35. No telling how high it will go - congrats!

[Patrick_Mucci]

Ran,

Please explain Somerset Hill's lofty rank, thanks.

What am I missing ?

[Paul Richards]

Patrick:

When referring to Somerset Hills, you are missing a lot.

This is a wonderful, classic, old-time golf course.

The Redan 2nd is remarkable (I came within a 1/2 inch of
making a hole-in-one there).

Everything is understated - sort of like Garden City.  The
Clubhouse may as well be a trailer.  But that's part of the
charm.

It has the feeling of a Scottish course - it's not a links, but
like Chicago GC, it has that Scottish feel.

In addition, it doesn't hurt that the USGA headquarters is
pretty close, and that their leadership are members at SH.

[Paul Richards]

Ran:

Are you going to post the lists any time soon, or just leave
us all here dangling and wondering?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Paul Richards,

That near hole in one sounds a little like a homer bias  

I appreciate that SH is understated, but that doesn't necessarily equate to a great golf course.

Earlier in this post I alluded to the evaluation of some holes, and a match play comparison with other nearby golf courses, not including Ridgewood.

Despite your misreading of the second green on your near miss hole in one shot    I'm not so sure that I share your lofty view of # 2.  Certainly, it's a good hole, but what of
#'s 3, 4, 6, 7, 10, 11, 14, 17, and 18 ?  Do you feel that these are all strong holes, with strong architectual and strategic values ?

I may be missing it, but I would like a little more hole by hole evidence reflecting the folly of my perspective, thanks.  

[Solario]

I'm disapointed Southern Dunes is off the list.

[Ran Morrissett]

Paul,

I am not a fast enough typist   to want to list 200 courses. Beverly didn't make it though, which probably only helps you stay on track with your restorative efforts.

Pat,

Tillie is a great favorite as an architect and Somerset has the most variety of any of his designs that I can think of - a world class Redan, some mounds on 4 and 6 that would make you smile   , a lake, a stream, what once was a quarry, the open field where the horses once raced, a cross bunker, the secluded, more rugged back nine, uphill shots, downhill shots, awkward stances in the fairways, minimal tree encroachment into playing angles, and most importantly, a GREAT collection of 18 greens. Such diversity of hazards/features conspires to make this an all-time favorite.

While GW has it #30 Classical,  I have it about #40 on my world ballot for GOLF, so I hate to tell you but I still think it could go up some    It doesn't possess the difficulty of his more noted courses but I'll opt for this kind of variety over difficulty everytime.

Besides, it's the kind of course that makes me want to become a better golfer - can I fade it off the 6th, 11th and 15th tees, can I sling in a running approach onto the 13th green, can I hit a controlled long iron past the bunkers and see it bound onto the 8th green, can I use the bank just right on the 12th, can I use the hump in the 5th green to get my wedge close,  can I hit the perfect draw on the Redan, etc. So many enticing shots!

When the greens are fast/firm, it's a real placement course - 10 feet above the hole on the 4th is d-e-a-d.

I am surprised it's not one of your favorites too. Perhaps we should re-visit it - unless you think what happened at Inniscrone will happen here too  

Cheers,

[RJ_Daley]

Josh, whether the ratings game is a true validation of greatness or not, I'm glad to see your work was appreciated last year and even more this year by the ratings people at GW.  Anyone that wouldn't thouroughly enjoy a round of fast and firm like you produce would be a clueless dolt.  I will say it one more time, I think what you have there is the best!

[Mike O'Neill]

Josh,

Good for you for taking what Dan and Dave gave you and presenting it to its best advantage. You deserve so much credit. Keep up the great work!

[Craig Rokke]

Like Redanman, I'm disappointed Inniscrone fell. It's puzzling.
Was Applebrook eligible for this year's list?

[JP Morgan]

Here is the list:

America's Best Modern

1 Sand Hills  2 Pacific Dunes  3 Whistling Straits   4 Bandon Dunes
5 Pete Dye GC 6 The Honors Course  7  Shadow Creek  8 Muirfield
9 The Golf Club  10 Cuscowilla  11 World Woods (PB)  12 Spyglass
13 Wade Hampton  14 TPC Sawgrass 15 Double Eagles
16 Blackwolf Run River 17 Harbour Town 18 Black Diamond Quarry
19 The Rim 20 Desert Forest  21 Eugene CC  22 Ocean Course  
23 Kinloch  24 Karsten Creek 25 Forest Highlands 26 Castle Pines
27 Wolf Run 28 Victoria National 29) Hawk's Ridge 30 Estancia
31 Long Cove 32 Cog Hill 33 Princeville 34 The Sanctuary 35 Wild Horse
36 Lake LV  37 Crosswater  38 Hazeltine  39 Quintero  40 Forest Creek
41 Arcadia Bluffs 42 Shoal Creek 43 Ocean Forest 44 Stonewall
45 Old Tabbly Links 46 Lost Dunes 47 Jupiter Hills
48 Pumpkin Ridge Witch Hollow 49 Musgrove Mill 50 Bears Club
51 Huntsville  52 Mauna Kea Beach  53 Valhalla 54 Crooked Stick  
55 RTJ International  56 Apache Stronghold  57  Bay Harbor  
58 Galloway National  59 Chechesee Creek 60 The Gallery
 61 Mayacama 62 Raven at Snowshoe  63 Wincester  64 Bulle Rock  
65 Sand Ridge  66 Secession  67 Caledonia  68 Hawktree
 69 Paa-Ko Ridge  70 Sahalee  71  Kapalua  72 The Preserve 73  Bellerive 74  John's Island  75  Olde Farm  76 Firethorn  77 Atlantic  
78  Old Memorial  79 Oak Tree 80 The Tradition at Royal New Kent
 81 Longaberger  82  Talking Stick  83 World Woods Rollin Oaks  
84  Iron Horse 85 TPC at Snoqualmie Ridge  86  Barton Creek Canyons  87 Pumpkin Ridge Ghost Creek  88 Challenge at Manele Bay 89 The Farm  90 Pine Tree  91 Tradition La Quinta 92 Troon  93  Belfair
 94 Links of ND Red Mike  95 Flint Hills 96 Nantucket 97 The Powder Horn  98 Kingsley Club 99 Naples National  100 Barona Creek

America's Best Classical

1 Pine Valley  2  Cypress Point  3  Augusta  4 Pebble Beach  5  Shinnecock  6 Crystal Downs  7 Merion  8 Pinehurst #2  9 Oakmont   10 Fishers Island  11 NGLA  12 SFGC  13 Prairie Dunes  14 Seminole  15 Chicago GC
 16 Winged Foot West 17 Oakland Hills  18 Garden City  19 Southern Hills  20  The Country Club Composite  21 Wannamoisett 22 Olympic Club Lake  23 LACC  24 Quaker Ridge  25 Riviera  26 Bethpage Black  27 Camargo  28 Yeaman's Hall  29 Plainfield  30 Somerset Hills  31 Baltimore 32 Shoreacres  33 Maidstone  34 Winged Foot East  35 East Lake
 36 Valley Club  37 Salem  38 Holston Hills  39 Baltusrol
 40  Medinah No. 3  41 Oak Hill East  42 Homestead  43 Newport  
 44 Inverness 45 Milwaukee  46 Peachtree  47 Pasatiempo  48 Colonial  49 Myopia Hunt  50 Interlachen  51 Scioto  52  Moraine  53 NCR South  
54 Indianwood  55 Point O'Woods  56 Piping Rock  57  Hollywood  
58 White Bear Yacht Club  59 Wykagyl  60 Olympia Fields 61 Cherry Hills  62  Rolling Green 63 Lancaster  64 Ridgewood  65 Lawsonia  66 Essex
 67 CC of Fairfield  68 Congressional Blue  69 Manufacturers
 70 St Louis CC  71 Kittansett  72  Baltusrol Upper  73 Taconic  74 Brookside  75 Huntindon Valley  76 Creek Club  77 Northland
78 Canterbury  79 Philadelphia Spring Mill  80 Fenway  81 CC of Detroit  
82 Saucon Valley  83 Kirtland  84 Pine Needles  85 The Minikahda Club  
86 Firestone South  87 Champions 88 Lehigh  89 Franklin Hills  
90 Philadelphia Cricket Club  91 Monterey Peninsula Dunes
 92  Westchester  93 Bel-Air  94 Fox Chapel  95 Sankaty Head  96 Seattle 97 Yale 98 Aronimink  99 Dunes Myrtle Beach  100  Mountain Lake Club

[brad_miller]

What course would move up the most both on or off the classic list with a "proper restoration" ? Maybe 50-75 spots? I think I have my choice.

[Jim_Kennedy]

brad,
I tend to look at these lists in much the same way as I do the Oscars, actually, more like the Lifetime Achievement Award given at that event.

I'm happy to see Yale has stayed on the list. This "Bulldog" of a course deserves it and could be much higher. It will always have my vote for potential.
I'm also glad to see that the MacD/Raynor/Banks squad has captured 14 spots on the classic list. George Bahto sure picked great subjects for his forthcoming book/s.

I think Tom Doak(#2) and Lester George(#23) must be happy campers by having their new courses appear in these spots. How about Pete Dye? 4 in the top 10, 3 in the second 10 and 13 courses listed overall. The man is a machine.

The man who spans the lists best is RTJsr. Seven times on the classic list and 8 on the modern. Some are re-do's and some are solos but these numbers are a tribute to his longevity and mastery of his profession.  

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

JP
Thanks.

Brad
I think there are a few who that would rise quickly - Yale, Hollywood and Bel-Air.

[Richard_Goodale]

Great seeing Barona Creek make the list.  Congrats to Todd Eckenrode.

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