Golf Week's new rankings

[Ben Cowan-Dewar]

I am not a huge fan of the Landmark complex, good, not great, but North is definitely better.

Desert Dunes is a good track, I always wonder if it will be overlooked because of wind and condition, which I have found to be spotty.

As for the Primm Courses, they really would have to make the Cali top 25, but they should be in the Nevada grouping.

I like the Lakes course and think it is one of the best bets in Vegas, no pun intended.

Matt,
Where does PGA West fit on your list.  It would have to be pretty tight with Spyglass for third, not having played Barona myself.

[Jeff_Stettner]

Huckster:
15?! I might just have to drag you down there and make you play that course until it leaps into your top ten. God I love Saddle Creek. The routing and bunkers and greens are so damn good.

Matt:
I've played Coyote Moon, and just don't understand the hype. Almost every green was the same; wedged into the side of a hill. The bunkering was OKAY, not bad, but neither visually stimulating nor exceptionally placed. Sure the layout is in a nice setting, but I just don't think the course is that good. I would not put it in my top 20 in Cali, let alone 30.

[Jeff_Stettner]

Matt:
Missed your post on Oregon. I agree with your top five, but not the order. Eagle Point has got to be the 3rd best public course in the state (assuming Crosswater doesn't qualify). Talk about a well conceived place. The routing is absolutely fabulous. Have you ever taken a look at 16 green from 10 tee? It fits the land really well. How about the green on four, elevated with a flase front and fall-offs on all sides? So good.
I've not played Running Y, but I have played Ghost Creek, and I could not place it above Eagle Point. Especially when one considers what they charge; I think the highest green fee is still at or less than 50 bucks. Talk about value.

[JohnV]

Matt,

Thanks,

My top ten for Oregon would be:

1) Pacific Dunes
2) Bandon Dunes
3) Pumpkin Ridge / Ghost Creek
4) Crosswater (included for now, although it might go fully private some day.)
5) Eagle Point
6) Eastmoreland
7) Tokatee
Running Y (I've only played 9 and driving the other nine while it was still dirt so I might move it up some day)
9) Sunriver North (Now called Cascades I believe)
10) Salishan

Honorable Mention: Sandpines, Aspen Lakes (I've only seen 9 holes), Diamond Woods (good for a homemade course), OGA Members.

[THuckaby2]

Jeff - a little birdie informed me we might get to discuss this in person next week....

I didn't dig Saddle Creek that much to be overjoyed.  I know I shouldn't think this way, but the 3+ hour drive effected me.  Put that in San Jose and ok, maybe I bump it to top 10.  I just wanted MORE for the freakin' effort I put in to get there!

Stupid reasoning, don't I know it.  I also know myself....

TH

[Jeff_Stettner]

Huckster:
Looking forward to it...

[Matt_Ward]

The listing I presented for Oregon wasn't mine -- but GW's.

If I had to rate them I would have ..

1). Pacific Dunes
2). Bandon Dunes
big drop-off to 3
3). Eagle Point.
4). Crosswater
5). Pumpikin Ridge / Ghost Creek

Jeff -- I rate overall quality public courses by their design -- when you add the catgeory of value you're putting in another factor besides the bare bones actual design. Do I appreciate the lower rates, yes, but that is a separate issue beyond that of the merits of the design.

I do agree about Eagle Point but when I was therlast August the course had been over-watered and the firmness that should be present resulted in more point-to-point play. I agree with the holes you mentioned as being special. What about the 10th and 11th holes too? Truly unique and always fun to play. Anybody traveling the I-5 cooridor from NoCal to Bandon area should stop and play it when going through Medford.

I also liked Aspen Lakes when I played it during my western swing last year. The course is very straightforward but you must consistently drive ball well. I'd include it in my second five but it's doubtful I would not include Sandpines -- very overrated plain Jane vanilla design overly shaped and contoured for the location it has. One last comment on Oregon courses -- can someone tell me what is the big deal with Running Y? Great location but what else?

Jeff -- as far as Coyote Moon is concerned I disagree -- you're saying there are 30 better in all of California. Look I'm not saying the course should be held up for sainthood but there's plenty of challenge throughout the course. Just remember the element of positioning your tee shots on many of the holes. Remember the 17th with its element of risk and reward -- I assume you played the back tees for full effect? I hit the ball a good ways off the tee and I know that from the tips I had to be able to move the ball accordingly to keep myself on the short grass -- the 11th is another example. You say the greens are just ordinary. I disagree. There is plenty of movement on a number of them -- do you forget the narrow and tiered 18th?

If you played The Dragon can you tell me what you think of both of them?

I still would say Coyote Moon has a good shot in making CA's top 25.

Ben:

Good point about the location of Primm, however, do we include courses based on metro areas or by actual state lines?It kind of irks me that Pennsy guys all the time actually take credit for PV when it's really inside Jersey.

Hard call on PGA West / Stadium and Spyglass for me. I like what Pete did at the Stadium and even though man's hands are clearly all over the site I truly enjoy the challenge you seem to get from a Dye course that few modern architects can match.

The thing that makes the Stadium exciting for me is that you can't really force the long shot without paying considerable heed to what can happen if you should miss the mark. Pete does not give easy bailouts or reprieves. The drumbeat is steady and you know it.

Spyglass is clearly exciting but after you get past the 6th hole you go into the woods and many of the holes are indeed tough but are they memorable?

GD has Spyglass as the 7th best among all types of courses in CA with the Stadium at #25 -- I don't see the spread that far apart. I agree with Tom Doak / Confidential Guide when he rates both courses at 7 ... I'd would probably give them a bit more -- maybe 7.5.

I would rate Spyglass ahead of the Stadium, but the margin is very tight like the space between Affirmed and Alydar. One other note -- I would also include both ahead of Barona Creek although I love what that course offers and how the course is presented on a daily basis. In my mind Barona Creek would come after Stadium and after Sky Course at Lost Canyons. I would certainly include all of them in my listing of top 100 moderns for what it's worth. Another course that gets short shrift is the Mountain Course at LaQuinta -- well done by Pete as well. One last note -- I'd like to go back sometime soon and see how well Pasatiempo stacks up. Maybe some of the CA posters can say if the course still has it besides the Mackenzie connection.

[Warren Lehr]

I wanted to review the comments of a great many people I respect and to answer Pat on my feelings about Somerset Hills.

Pat, most of the times I've played SH the greens have been as close to the edge in speed as you can play. That's what makes the course without doubt. If you played the course when they are slow the whole magic of SH is diminished big time. Since Tillie did not have much property to work with there are a number of holes that are short. Even long hitters must pay heed when approaching the greens.

Take for example just two holes you mentioned. The 10th, is a relatively short par-5 that I can usually reach without straining. However, the second shot must fly beyond the upslope that guards the green and still sit quietly before rolling into trouble beyond. The green is extremely testing and many a time I've seen players get there in two but three-jack it!

The 11th, may be one of the best medium-range par-4's I've played. Nicknamed "perfection" the 403 yard hole demands pinpoint placement. I've seen all types of numbers on this hole. Even after you hit the fairway the approach usually is with a mid to short iron depending upon one's length to a green sloped from back to front. Again, if you land too far to one side the demands of a side-hill putt will grab many players.

I said before the finale is really a let down because even though the green is small and somewhat titled the demands are really ho-hum to so many other holes on the course.

Do I see SH as 30th in the classic listing as cited by Golfweek? That's a stretch because some of the courses you listed that are also from NJ ... Forsgate / Banks Course, Essex County, Hollywood, are also no less demanding in their own way. Maybe others on the GW panel can explain their feelings on the courses you and I have listed and where they stack up against SH.

One last comment for now ... as someone very familiar with AZ golf I can't for the life of me know how Quintero and The Rim are rated so high? Did anyone venture over to Desert Mountain's Chiricuhua course? How about Chapparal Pines?
I've played The Rim and Quintero and don't see how the former (plenty of great scenery & service) merits the position  it has. And Quintero is loaded with a repetitive feature of downhill par-3's, to name just one shortcoming. Both are fun courses to play, however, the competition in the Grand Canyon State merits a closer inspection at a few other layouts.

One last comment for now -- Paa Ko Ridge and The Kingsley Club should also have been much higher than they are.

More to come ...

Matt,
Thanks for your comment about Paa-Ko Ridge.  We're still somewhat in the category of "hidden gem" out here despite a good deal of great press.  I'd be interested to know if anyone else out there has played Paa-Ko or knows someone who has.  If so, what are your thoughts?

[Jeff_Stettner]

Matt:
I want to be sure you and I are on the same page. I don't rate Eagle Point higher because of its value; I rate it as the 3rd best design in Oregon. The value is a nice bonus.
As for your Oregon rankings, they are exactly the same as mine. I don't know if I should call you a genius, but you certainly are correct on this one.
But then there is Coyote Moon. I have thought a lot about this course, and I really believe the setting fools people into thinking the design is so good. There are just too many weak holes for me to reccommend it. The long downhill par 3, the short par 4 over the creek (13 and 14?) are just bad. 16 is a weak par three that fights the land, while the green on 17 is just thrown into the hillside as an afterthought. Even the green on 18 was a letdown; I felt like Algie Pully was coming back to haunt me.
So, as to try and back up my feelings, here are 30 public courses I put higher than Coyote Moon:

1. Pebble Beach
2. Spyglass Hill
3. Pasatiempo
4. Saddle Creek (yup. It's that good)
5. Stevenson Ranch (so is this)
6. PGA West Stadium
7. Links at Spanish Bay (Bring the debate on)
8. Tony Lema (In good shape only)
9. The Ridge
10. Whitehawk Ranch
11. Ranch San Marcos (gorgeous course)
12. Haggin Oaks Mackenzie Course (Neat new redesign)
13. Half Moon Bay Ocean (dissapointment for me)
14. Twelve Bridges
15. Oak Valley
16. La Purisma
17. Wente Vineyards (almost really good)
18. Torry Pines South
19. Diablo Grande Legends (better than Ranch)
20. Pacific Grove (Back nine is so much fun)
21. Poppy Hills (Maybe too low)
22. Hunter Ranch
23. Stawberry Farms
24. Bayonet (I'll get yelled at for placing this so low)
25. Redhawk (Underrated, I agree)
26. Spanos Park
27. Ancil Hoffman
28. Aviara
29. Landmark North
30. Maderas (Probably too low)

Whooo. That was actually harder than I thought.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Matt Ward, Mike Cirba, BillV,

Where do you rank Banks' Essex County West in your listing of public courses in New Jersey ?

[Mike_Cirba]

Patrick

The course you refer to, now known as Francis Byrne GC, would be wonderful with a proper restoration.  There is still enough of a skeleton there that it could become really special with loving hands and an influx of cash.  

I loved it, but conditions are really poor, and if you objected to the conditions at Yale, you would die playing Byrne.  

It's still tough as bricks, and will humble almost any golfer, but too much of the Banks style has been neutered and lost to time and neglect.

Have you played it, Patrick?  If you ever are interested, it might be fun to get together and have a look.  We might cry at what's been lost, but I think enough neat stuff still exists for us to admire.

[BillV (Guest)]

Patrick

Geoff C and I have been trying to get out to Frances Byrne but no one is answering the phone lately.  Are they open this time of year?  Let you know when I play it.  The upper course has some good holes and nice work being done by George, but I am not as high as Matt on it.
Huckaby

I agree with you on HMB Ocean.  There were a lot of things I liked about it.  Haven't played since the "Inn" was completed. Also agree the Links is mostly a throwaway although I like #16 and the uphill par 3 17th.

Matt and others re: Spyglass and PGA West Stadium (And its rightful? place in the (my?) world?


I personally like PGA West better and think it is a better golf course.    There are soooooo many awesome holes out there, more variety than Dye's Ocean Course, but not the setting.  In spite of the setting, the course is reall really something special in my eyes.  More consistently creative holes, better pacing, order, but more penal and mostly cartball due to logistics.  It is some of Dye's coolest work, I probably like it as well if not better than the Sawgrass Stadium for Dye.  Golfweek Preferred most recent issue had Brad Klein's notes on it.  I might even like it a tad more than he and he really likes it.

[Paul Richards]

Here's one I just came across while reviewing the Golfweek
Classic course list;

Winged Foot - West at #16.
Winged Foot - East at #34.

IMHO, the West should be much higher.  In fact, I'd put it in
my Top 5.  It's a big golf course, tough, yet fun and is a
great tournment venue.

The East is ranked WAY too high.  In fact, I'd be hard pressed
to put it in my Top 100 classic courses.  The build-up to
playing it was so much that I felt a great deal of
disappointment when I actually got through my round.  Don't
get me wrong - it's a very good course.  It's just not #34.

WF is one of the few clubs have a great one-two punch (Olympia Fields also comes to mind).  

[David Wigler]

I am shocked that Primm is so well regarded.  Remember that I am one of the big Tom Fazio fans in this tree house and I thought Primm was extremely mediocre.  My Vegas public rankings are

.5 Shadow Creek (They are advertising as a public course)
1. Reflections
2. Paiute Wolf
3. Paiute Snow
4. Bear's Best (Sorry Gib but Shooter and I got a kick out of it)
5. TPC Canyons
6. Revere at Anthem
7. Paiute Sun
8. Royal Links
9. Primm Desert
10. Dragons Ridge
11. Primm Lakes

I cannot imagine Primm making the top 25 in California.  Lakes is nothing more than a cheap imitation of Shadow Creek that is extremely pretty and one of the most boring courses I have ever played.  Desert is goofy golf with banked fairways to silly waste areas.  If Mesquite was thrown into the mix, Desert might struggle to make the top 15 Public in Vegas IMO.

[Matt_Ward]

Jeff Stettner:

Ancil Hoffman, Pacific Grove, Spanos Park, Strawberry Farm and Hunter Ranch, top name a quick four -- ahead of Coyote Moon! Jeff, I think the course can definitely get into a top 25 given the listing you're showing. Wente Vineyards #17 -- really?

Also, The Ridge that far ahead of LaPurisima -- no way Jose! And, why no Barona Creek? You list Redhawk which is good but can't see how Barona Creek doesn't even get a sniff at your listing.

Thanks for the heads-up on Stevenson Ranch and Saddle Creek -- I have not played either. Can you provide details on total course length, course rating and slope from the tips? What makes them thaaaaat gooood? Next time I'm out west I'll be swinging by these layouts.

BillV:

Francis Bryne needs a major league makeover. Mike Cirba is right on target -- the course makes Yale look like Augusta National in shape. What was a really solid course years ago is just a shell of its former glorious past. The hillside the course uses was done so well by Charles "steam-shovel" Banks but the private club took some of the land from such holes as the 7th and 8th and much of the qualities of the bunkering has also decayed and fallen apart over time.

To top off matters, Essex County which runs the show is really using the facility as a cash cow -- little is done to really take advantage of this former stellar course. In my mind, the old Essex County West could have easily made the state's top five public courses -- very sad indeed given such quality holes as as the 12th and 15th are still no less testing as solid long par-4's.

Paul Richards:

Winged Foot West is a great course but please tell me where the great par-5's on the course? When played as a par-70 for major events you do get a tough test, but the drumbeat really emphasizes the long par-4's and long par-3's. How would you assess the course as a par-72 when the 9th and 16th play as short par-5's -- they are still OK holes but I'd be curious if your assessment of the course related to the par of 72 or 70.

I don't doubt WF West is extremely difficult (2nd only behind SH under tournament conditions in my mind) because getting near the pin is extremely demanding with small elevated targets to hit from long distance. I'd have the West a bit higher than where it is, but not top five -- just outside the elite 10 would be my position.

The story on WF East is something I agree with you in concept but not in final position. I'd still include it in a top 100 classic because the layout is junior size version of what you see with the West. Dropping it down slightly would be just about right.

Quick question -- how would you assess other Tillie courses in the NY metro area if you can answer? Where do you place Quaker Ridge? Bethpage Black? Fenway? Alpine? Ridgewood?
Thanks!

[David Wigler]

A quick admission and apology to Steve Johnson.

Steve,

I just read about Maderas on another thread and thought, "That sounds nothing like the course I was under whelmed with."  Upon further investigation, the course that under whelmed me was Meadows Del Mar not Maderas.  Call it a blonde moment from a Michigander trying to sound intelligent about So Cal golf.  I will try to play Maderas this April.  Until then, I will cede to your judgment on which is better between Maderas and Barona.

[redanman]

Quick question -- how would you assess other Tillie courses in the NY metro area if you can answer? Where do you place Quaker Ridge? Bethpage Black? Fenway? Alpine? Ridgewood?

Matt

This emphasizes what I find very difficult for state lists.  Once you get into second and third tier courses in the really rich areas like LI, NYC, Phila, Boston, there are so many courses that really are better than all in most other states it almost becomes meaningless to anyone outside the area.  I think this is what John Conley was after with his deciles, once again very dependent on what you know and think about the lister as well as the list!  Just look aqt the arguement between him and Mark Fine about the Rees course at Fiddler's. (A course that would probably stand out in FL, but is just another in NJ).

People like Ran who have lists where (I apologize if I am wrong here, Ran) he insists that he would rather play #276 than #277.  Lists like that are meaningless for all but the creator and hold little relevance for others. Lists of 20-40 equivalents past the first 50 100 or so are the most do-able and useful for most.  Even past  a small really hard (firm) list courses become grouped in 5's or so for most.  That's just within a state.

Given all the variables, the rating evaluation business really requires that a rater be really familiar with a lot of courses ina lot of places.

As for Tillie in NYC metro?

Quaker>Fenway>Alpine, haven't played the other two.

Also

WFW(solid)+/->?=Quaker(cool, quirky)>WFE (Better than the best in lots of other states)>Baltusrol Lower>Fenway>Baltusrol Upper=Alpine(Equivalent # of problems that hurt each!)

Just one set of opinions.  WFW,WFE,Quaker so different, so good.

[THuckaby2]

Jeff:  our gig is ON - see ya then!

As for rankings, hell yours aren't that far off from mine, and if we agreed about everything, what a boring world it would be!  Some comments I have re yours:

4. Saddle Creek (yup. It's that good)
OK, I BELIEVE YA.  I'M MAKING IT A POINT TO GET OUT THERE AGAIN.  MAYBE I WAS JUST IN A BAD MOOD THAT DAY!

5. Stevenson Ranch (so is this)
I DON'T WHOLLY DISAGREE.  I DIG SR.

7. Links at Spanish Bay (Bring the debate on)
NO DEBATE HERE - I HAVE IT JUST ABOUT AS YOU DO!

8. Tony Lema (In good shape only)
MONARCH BAY - YEP - GREAT - I PLAY IT ALL THE TIME THOHUGH, AND GOOD SHAPE IS A THING OF THE PAST.  VERY SAD WHAT AGC HAS DONE THERE.  THUS MY TAKE ON IT IS EXACTLY LIKE YOU, AND GIVEN CONDITIONS IT DOESN'T MAKE MY TOP 20.

9. The Ridge
DAMMIT, GOTTA GET THERE!

10. Whitehawk Ranch
DITTO!

11. Ranch San Marcos (gorgeous course)
TOTALLY FORGOT ABOUT THIS - I HAVE PLAYED IT, IT BELONGS IN MY TOP 20 FOR SURE.  GOOD CALL.

12. Haggin Oaks Mackenzie Course (Neat new redesign)
CAN'T WAIT TO SEE IT... I PLAYED IT PRE-RENOVATION MANY TIMES, HAVEN'T POST.  ADD ANOTHER TO MY LIST!

13. Half Moon Bay Ocean (dissapointment for me)
OH WELL, TO EACH HIS OWN.  I'M HAPPY IT MADE YOUR LIST PERIOD AND IF 13 IS A DISSAPOINTMENT, THAT'S PRETTY GOOD!

15. Oak Valley
GOOD ADDITION - ANOTHER ONE I LEFT OUT - LOVE IT.

17. Wente Vineyards (almost really good)
EXPLAIN THE "ALMOST" - WHERE DOES IT FAIL?  I HAVE MY OWN IDEAS BUT WOULD LOVE TO HEAR YOURS.

19. Diablo Grande Legends (better than Ranch)
DAMN YOU.  MY WIFE IS NOW MORE PISSED.  ANOTHER COURSE I NEED TO SEE.

20. Pacific Grove (Back nine is so much fun)
WHOA... TOUGH CALL PUTTING THIS ON, NO MATTER HOW FUN IT IS AND HOW MUCH I LOVE IT - WHICH I DO - YOU HAVE BIGGER HUEVOS THAN ME.  I'M GONNA HAVE TO THINK ABOUT THIS... NO MATTER WHAT, I HAVE A HARD TIME CALLING IT "BETTER" THAN POPPY HILLS... SORRY ADAM!  I DO LOVE THE COURSE AND THE BACK NINE IS WONDERFUL.. FRONT NINE IS QUIRKY AND FUN AS WELL.. BUT THIS IS HEADY COMPANY HERE... I WOULD NEVER PUT PGM BELOW 30 OR SO BUT THIS HIGH IS TOUGH TO JUSTIFY.

23. Stawberry Farms
TOMMY N. IS GONNA SCREAM.

24. Bayonet (I'll get yelled at for placing this so low)
NAH, NO YELLING.  IT'S SO BASTARDIZED TODAY, I CAN SEE THIS LOW PLACEMENT.  HALF OF MY MIND IS STILL JUDGING IT HOW IT WAS... I DO LIKE THIS COURSE AS A "TEST" THOUGH AND IT HAS SOME DAMN UNIQUE HOLES.

27. Ancil Hoffman
DIG IT - GOOD ADDITION.


Anyway, great list!

TH

[GeoffreyC]

There are so many really excellent examples of Tillinghast's work here in the MET area.  We are very lucky.

Paul- as far as WFW goes, I can't come up with the same high opinion of it as you do.  Yes it's a great test of golf.  I find it in a slightly different way the same as Bethpage Black. Its a CONSTANT examination.  It beats on you from the tee all the way to almost every 3 foot putt. Also the property isn't nearly as good as Quaker or Fenway. Matt's comments about the par 5's is right on.  The 3's are world class in every way except the East has really cute/demanding short ones too.  The 6th is the only "short hole" on the course although its a really good one.

If given the choice I'd play Quaker or Fenway ahead of it day in and day out.  As far as the East goes, I believe the members usually prefer to play it more often then the West.  More variety and charm.  It's definitely a Top 100 classic in my book.

If I had to choose where I'd rather play very often (different from having to go by GW criteria) it would be Quaker, Fenway, Bethpage, WFE, WFW, Rockaway Hunt, Baltusrol Lower, Alpine.  (Have not played the others on your list - yet   ) He also worked on or did several others in the MET area worthy of discussion. A peek into the book on the Golf Courses of the MET by Dr. Bill Querin (sorry for the spelling) would reveal a treasure chest.

[Craig Van Egmond]

I finally got to see the state by state rankings and the Washington state was were kinda surprising.

   1.  Olympic course at Gold Mountain - Harbottle
   2.   Desert Canyon - Jack Frei
   3.   Druids Glen - Keith Foster
   4.   McCormick Woods - Jack Frei
   5.   Coal Creek at NewCastle - Bob Cupp

The first two I would accept,  however Druid's is good but not number 3 and even though I am a member at NewCastle and love the course it ain't number 5.  I think ambience and views must have influence that choice.

My top 10 public courses in Washington.

   1. Olympic course at Gold Mountain
   2.  Desert Canyon
   3. Meriwood - Bill Overdorf
   4. McCormick Woods
   5. Trophy Lake - John Fought
   6. Washington National - John Fought
   7.  Indian Canyon - H. Chandler Egan
   8.  Druids Glen
   9.  The Classic - Bill Overdorf
  10.  Coal Creek at Newcastle  

Had to put Newcastle in there somewhere.  

Washington National could overtake Trophy Lake if it gets its conditioning in order.

Honorable mention: Vicwood, Semiahmoo, Cascade course at Gold Mountain, Kayak Point
  
  

[Matt_Ward]

Craig Edgmand:

Can you say with any certainty if Desert Canyon is going forward with a second 18? I've heard this was something that may take place. I really like original layout in Orondo and have to see Olympic Course at Gold Mountain to see how it stacks up.

Is development really taking off east of the Cascades. Great terrain in the Spokane area and I really enjoy Indian Canyon although the last time I played the course was during the US PubLink event in '84.

redanman:

I can see your point to a degree, however, I believe one can assess the caliber of Tillie courses JUST in the metro NYC area and get a read on what others think when they look at his collective work in that particular respective area. I know what you are saying when you say take one course from one state and then throw it into another state that may have less overall caliber of courses and the overall results will be different (i.e. your example of a NJ v Fl course is on target). If you look at the metro NYC area you can do an apples v apples comparison of his work.

Keep in mind my reason for asking was to see if the person making the claim about WF has really been able to view other Tillie courses to really accentuate his position as being knowledgable for a comparison to be even made from the get go.

A good example of explanation was done by GeoffreyC who provides real clarity on what he favors with particular Tillie courses and why in the metro area. I believe more of this should be done so we can get a broader overview of a person's credibility when they make comments on one course.

Hope this helps ...

[darrin]

David Wigler:

As an OU student, I was blown away by your inclusion of Sharf in your Michigan top 15!  In fact, I think it's the first time I've seen Sharf ever mentioned on this discussion board. I have had the opportunity to play it on a few occasions (still pretty expensive even for student rate!) and think it's a solid design.  The Katke-Cousins original 18 ain't half bad either.

Regarding a couple of other MI courses:  What is your take on Engh's Tullymore at St. Ives?  And have you ever played a little known W. Mich course called Grand View in New Era?

[Craig Van Egmond]

Matt,

         There have been rumours of the second 18 at Desert Canyon for years. I played there last year and they still hadn't broke ground.

         There are a number of resorts/destination areas being built east of the cascades one called Mountain Star in Rosyln, they have broken ground on the first of two courses. The first course should open in 2003 and is being built by a guy named Thronsen (sp?) who helped with the Running Y in Oregon.  
  
         Then in Ellensburg there is some courses in the works for another resort with Fred Couples involved that have not broken ground yet.

          Here in Western Washington the big one is Chuckanut Crest being built towards Bellingham by Bill Overdorf.


          Spokane has lots of great affordable golf.

[Willie Campbell]

GW won my respect by rating the Boston city muni George Wright #2 in the state. Well done.

[Jeff_Stettner]

Matt:
Okay, Hunter Ranch and Strawberry Farm are not far off from Coyote Moon. I've just never been wrong, and am not interested in setting a new precident. As for Spanos Park, Ancil Hoffman and Pacific Grove, I think all three are better designs than Coyote Moon, and that's how we're deciding our lists.
The reason Barona isn't on my list is simple; I haven't played it. I will be there in the next two weeks, however, and I'm sure it will jump into my top Ten based on all the reports.
As for Saddle Creek and Stevenson, Gib and I debate all the time on which is better. I prefer Saddle, he's a Stevenson man, but I'm comfortable saying that both are deserving of top 100 Modern.
Saddle Creek opened in 1996, a design collaboration of Carter Morrish and a local top amateur, Tad Buchanon. About 7,000 all the way back, the couse rolls along oak-studded hills with ample creeks and lakes coming into play. The way the routing works is lovely; it's a pleasant walk through both isolated and parallel holes. The bunkering is very Morrish, but slides into the land effortlessly, while native grasses blend everything just beautifully. There are some great holes:
2. A long par four that doglegs sharply around a lake. The green sets up well to hold a long iron approach, and the closer one cuts the dogleg, the better the angle.
5. A really tough par 4 that plays uphill through a chute of oaks. Liberal bunkering and ground movement create a really strong hole.
14. A very long par 3 (240+) that plays like a redan down a steep hill. Many ways to find the green, which is guarded by bunkers and a hazard. Much like a hole at Broken Top.
16. Another good 3-par, slightly uphill to a tiny crowned green. Maybe 150 yards.
I'll write more about Stevenson later today, if somebody else doesn't beat me to it.
I hope this helps.