Golf Week's new rankings

[JohnH]

Paul,

I understand your point and agree.  I know this to be true of Merion, I just think it sucks that the closest I might get to these gems are on TV, that is why I fear I'll never see Merion again.

[Paul Richards]

JohnH:

You just may get to see Merion with that new Major
Champions Tour ....

 

[Mike_Cirba]

Craig,

I think you'd enjoy Hershey CC West a great deal.  It's a fine old course with a plethora of bunkering and an intimate site on rolling land.  I also think you'd enjoy the shorter, quirky Hershey CC South (which you can play without staying at the resort), which as a handful of holes better than anything else in town.  

Matt,

I can't comment on Olde Stonewall as number 1 in PA as I haven't played it.  Intuition, however, tells me that I wouldn't agree.    In fact, the PA list as a whole is something I have as much issue with as you have with GD's state list.  

[Scott_Burroughs]

Matt,
    It's hard to comment on the state list now as the link isn't working, but the one course that stuck out in my mind that I thought should have been there that wasn't was Crosswater in Oregon.  Sandpines was there and Crosswater wasn't.  I liked Crosswater a good bit, but I haven't played Sandpines (I got rained out), but it gets quite a few jeers here.

    Of the top 10 in my state of NC, I remember that I've played few of them, given I've played 70-some courses in the state.  I've played none of Pinehurst CC's courses, haven't played Wilmington Muni or Tiger's Eye, which were on the list.

[Jeff_Stettner]

Scott:
Crosswater in is the top fifty on the modern list. It's listed as a private course (access is limited to members and resort guests), which might be why it's missing from the best state list.
I can tell you one more thing. Sandpines couldn't rake Crosswater's bunkers.

[Paul Richards]

Scott, as Jeff mentions, those best-in-state lists are for
public courses only.

I'd like to see a list of best-in-state that includes private
courses as well.

[David Wigler]

Steve Johnson,

Could not disagree with you more.  Maderas and Torrey South do not deserve to be mentioned in the same breathe as Barona.  Maderas will always get publicity in GD because they put a school there but it lacks any of the strategy that is so prevalent at Barona.  Just stand off almost any of the tee boxes at Barona and follow the fairway lines.  It is some of the best work I have ever seen and shape, contour and flow of features.

I am from Michigan so I cannot comment on all of the public golf courses in Pennsylvania but I have played Olde Stonewall.  It is an absolute abortion of a routing with some unbelievably dramatic holes.  You criss-cross yourself three different times following a hole flow created by a drunken sailor and the course cannot allow walking given the elevation changes and the extreme green to tee distances.  In addition, many of the greens need fans because they were placed in spots where grass cannot grow.  Those complaints aside, several of the holes will blow you away.  My guess would be that the design team found what they considered the 18 best green sites, worked backwards on the fairways and then hodgepodged the routing to fit.  This comes off as a fairly harsh criticism when I actually like the golf course.  The holes are so dramatic that they tend to overshadow the flaws in design, agronomy, and routing.  Imagine Pam Anderson's body on Roseanne Barr's face (Or don't if you just ate breakfast).  If you look at the whole picture, the flaws are very obvious but if you are able to focus only on the positives, they are damn impressive.  

I could speak better about Michigan’s public golf.  If this course was in Michigan, I doubt it could crack the top 15 public courses.

[Scott_Burroughs]

Crosswater is open to resort guests.  That means any one from the public who stays at the resort.  Fits my definition of public, but I guess it has different meanings to different people.  Cascades in Virginia is open only to resort guests (when I called them a few years ago, that's what they said) and they were on the list if I recall.

The other course that crossed my mind that wasn't on the state list was Entrada at Snow Canyon in St. George, Utah.  I was very surprised this didn't make the Utah public list.

[redanman]

I think the state lists (Both Golfweek and Golf Digest) are limited as they reflect where the raters have been to play recently.  I think the GD list is the worse because the raters tend to play the newest courses to the exclusion of the "second and third tier" older courses.

Golfweek is not immune to these factors, but whether all of the best courses are on any list is to be seen. (Point to be made)

There is a "taste" factor (Blonde, brunette, redhead) involved as well and a set of raters may or may not reflect your, my or the general public (Is that a GOOD thing?) taste.

States and styles get under or over represented (Geographical-I mean with all respect, without their having hosted majors, how many really top courses are in the _________ part of the country (Defusing mechanism).    

Look at desert courses, for example

Golfweek doesn't currently have Desert Highlands and PGA West Stadium in the top 100 Modern (Both mistakes in my opinion) yet Estancia shows up at 30!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!, etc.,,

I mean how the hell much variety is there in the desert when everybody knocks the hell out of Florida courses for flatness?

And convince me, really convince me that the Johnny-come-latelies are really better than the original, Desert Highlands.  It is a really good course with great holes! (See, no Nicklaus bashing). And look at PGA West Stadium which only came in at 132 on the modern list.

I'm not so sure that the Classical list at 100 and the Modern list at 200 might really be more stimulating, since stimulation of thinking is really what these lists are about.  I think that's one of the big reasons that there appears to be such volatility in the Modern list.  It just may not be big enough.

[Scott_Burroughs]

Where'd you see PGA West's 132 ranking?

[THuckaby2]

Matt:  since you asked....

The wholly different take of Scott Johnson from David Wigler and myself re Barona as compared to Maderas/Torrey just shows that these are opinions and matters of taste... but since you asked, here's my top 20 public in CA, with only those I have played listed.  Thus no Maderas, though I'm working on correcting that soon.  And I include Torrey based on playing it many times before renovation and sure as hell seeing enough of it on TV and in pics post-renovation.  THis is also based on GolfWeek's definition of "public", in that Pebble is included...

1. Pebble Beach
2. Pasatiempo
3. Spyglass Hill
4. Barona Creek
5. PGA West Stadium
6. Half Moon Bay - Ocean
7. Lost Canyons - Sky
8. Links at Spanish Bay
9. La Quinta - Mountain
10. Bayonet (Fort Ord)
11. Stevinson Ranch
12. Poppy Hills
13. La Purisima
14. Wente Vineyards
15. Sea Ranch
16. Pelican Hill North
17. Torrey Pines South
18. Diablo Grande - Ranch
19. Twelve Bridges
20. Lost Canyons - Shadow

I'm sure you can tear this apart (I know you're not gonna like where I put HMB-Ocean!), just do realize I did this pretty quickly, off the top of my head, no references, no deep thought.  I may be missing some from SoCal or make some other glaring error or ommission.  But this isn't a bad start list and looking at it, I feel kinda glad to live in this state.  

TH

[David Wigler]

Shivas,

This is an "Off the top of my head" top 15 public in Michigan.  As I thought about where I would put Olde Stonewall, it would fit anywhere between 9 and 14.

1. Arcadia Bluffs
2. Bay Harbor - Links / Quarry
3. Shanty Creek - Legend
4. Heather Course - Boyne
5. Treetops - Smith Course
6. University of Michigan
7. Thoroughbred G.C.
8. Orchards G.C.
9. The Majestic at Lake Walden
10. Treetops - Fazio
11. Sharf Course at Oakland U.
12. Shepards Hollow
13. High Pointe
14. Black Forest at Wilderness Valley
15. Little Traverse Bay

I have not played Cedar River, Black Lake, or Gailes at Lakewood Shores (Which usually make lists such as this).  St Ives and The Medalist would be between 15 & 20 for sure

[Jeff_Stettner]

Huckster:
Saddle Creek? Please tell me you haven't played it, which is unacceptable in itself, but not as bad as excluding it from the best public courses in our fair state.

[THuckaby2]

Like I say Young Jeff, this was off the top of my head.  Though I didn't dig Saddle Creek as much as others, it does belong on this list definitely.  Make it #15 or so by me.

Pretty easy for rapidly senile ole me to forget the course most in the middle of nowhere I've ever played!  Copperopolis.. wow that's out there.

TH

[John Foley]

PGA West Stadium at #132 on the Modern list?? Are you kidding me?

While I'm sure there are detractors galore, but 132 better designs. No way.

[THuckaby2]

That surprised me also, JF.  Let's just say I wanna play the 131 courses BETTER than the Stadium.

TH

[Matt_Ward]

Tom Huckaby:

You're right -- HMB / Ocean is a bit of a stretch. Minus the last hole what is there of note?

I'm also glad you list LaPurisima but I believe it should be higher. Here is a course few get play because the trek to Lompoc isn't exactly on the agenda for many. Heck, from Sandpiper it's no less than 45-60 minutes further up Hwy 101.

I've always liked LaPurisima because the course uses the terrain well and the afternoon wind ALWAYS makes things exciting. I see the course as a legitimate top ten possibility.

Barona Creek ahead of PGA West (Stadium), Links at Spanish Bay and Lost Canyons (Sky). Plenty of discussion here.

Also, have you played the 36-hole layout at SCPGA? I liked the Champions Course, but I know Tommy N has a few issues with the Schmidt-Curley efforts there. In fact, I agree with him on the Legends Course / the middle set of holes. I believe the Champions Course is a viable candidate to be among the state's 20 best.

Have you been over to play Coyote Moon and The Dragon at Gold Mountain in the Truckee area? I really like Coyote Moon and see it as one of the best courses I've played in California.

Scott B, Jeff Stettner:

I've played Crosswater and there's no doubt it's beyond Sandpines. Also, I have issues with Runny Y Ranch as the 4th best -- prefer Eagle Point in Medford. Thoughts?

Last item -- Olde Stonewall is not the #1 course in PA. Heck, you can make a case that Quick Silver in Midway is better in the Steel City locale. What's amazing is that Quick Silver isn't even in the top ten!

Thanks!

[THuckaby2]

Matt:

I think you have your Half Moon Bays crossed, which isn't surprising given how often they've changed the names there and given what misnomers they are.  HMB Ocean is the Arthur Hills course that opened just a few years ago.  I find it quality from start to finish, and in fact 18 is FAR from the best hole there.  The other, older Palmer/Duane is the one hole course (18 along the ocean) and I don't put that on my top 50.

Haven't played Coyote Moon or The Dragon - just too many courses, too much family demand, not enough time!  I have indeed heard nothing but good things about each.

Nor have I played the SCPGA courses... don't get to SoCal all that much and when I do golf is not first priority.  Some day.  I have played Oak Valley several times and liked that.

As for internal rankings on my list, as I say it comes down to what one likes.  I absolutely love Barona for the strategic holes, MacKenzie-esque bunkering, flow from hole to hole, many other things.  It isn't easy to put it as high as I did, and heck, I can be swayed to move it down below the ones you say and not feel too bad.  But I'm not as into nitpicking as most on here anyway!

TH

[JohnV]

Tom H, I've played 11 of the 20 you listed and I'd put them in exactly the same order as you did
(1-5, 9, 11, 12, 17-19).  But, I might put Diablo Grand-Legends and Landmark's North course ahead of DG-Ranch and Twelve Bridges.  I don't know if you've played either of them.

[JohnV]

Since the state-by-state listings aren't online and my copy of Golfweek hasn't shown up can someone please post the list of Oregon courses.  Thanks

[THuckaby2]

JV:  it's sick to think about given how REMOTE Diablo Grande is (seems farther away than Copperopolis given how close to San Jose it is on a map and how FAR via roads) but I've been there FIVE times and have yet to play the Legends!  The first three times were before it was opened, the last two were just bad luck.  I too have heard it's better than the Ranch.

Haven't played Landmark either - my SoCal resume gets weaker and weaker as the years grow on and my very strong resume of courses played as a high schooler grows less and less relevant!

TH

[Matt_Ward]

Tom H:

Thanks for the clarification on HMB. I've got to play the Art Hills one. The AP / Duane course is utterly forgettable minus the 18th hole.

Book time to see Coyote Moon -- definitely better than The Dragon. Lots of action taking place in the Sierras. Also, LaPurisima is one course often overlooked by many. Well done course hurt by being located in Lompoc. I'd throw it in my top ten.

I too share your enthusiasm for Barona Creek, but instead of dropping Barona Creek I would add in a few other California courses on the public side lost in the shuffle on the GW national modern listing. Might have been a real plus if GW had included a top 20 or top 25 listing for the larger states (i.e. CA, FL, MI, etc.).

[THuckaby2]

Matt:  the new HMB course is indeed worth a trip.  Oh, I don't know if you'll put it as high as I did, likely not, but it is worth seeing in any case.  AH did a fine job there and was assisted by some really able people on the growth and maintenance side!

I say that as a inside joke - our own Pete Galea was VERY involved with that course.

As for Coyote Moon, hmmm... the wife is talking about a summertime Tahoe trip and it's not THAT far away... looks like I have a new priority!

Maybe I read this wrong too:  but which other public courses would you add that I ommitted?  I'm not saying this to argue, I'm more curious if I've played them and if not, when I can get there!  I do trust your judgment most definitely.

TH

[Matt_Ward]

Tom H:

There are a few other courses I can name from SoCal that might just sneak into a top 25 public listing for California.

What's your take on the following:

Primm Valley (Nipton) / 36-hole design by TF / I like the Desert Course more than the Palm.

Redhawk (Temecula) / Not bad design that gets mixed reviews but again to me it's a borderline call for top 25 status

Desert Willow / Fire Cliff ... Solid effort by Hurdzan / Fry and course is owned by town of Palm Desert. Lots of strategy involved with the design. Have to say this is underrated.

Shadow Ridge (Palm Desert) ... Owned by Marriott and course has the Faldo name attached as designer. Bunkering is indeed unique for what you normally see in the Coachella Valley.

Landmark / North Course ... Not bad and worthy of being included in the top 25.

Meadows del Mar (Del Mar) ... TF design set on good terrain ... really love the long par-4 5th (?). Have not played the course in two years so don't know what's happened since.

Desert Dunes / RTJ Jr design located on the windy area between the pass leading out of Banning. Some days the course is nearly impossible to play. Still, a worthy effort.

Let me know what you think of any of these. Some have a shot for top 25 consideration.

A neat little sleeper that isn't a top 25 course but is done well for a first time design is Diamond Valley in Hemet. Very reaonable costs and worth a look if you're headed to the desert through Hwy 74 from SD.

Let me know what you think of the above choices.

John V:

The top choices for public golf by GW in Oregon are:

1). Pacific Dunes
2). Bandon Dunes
3). Pumpkin Ridge / Ghost Creek
4). Running Y Ranch
5). Eagle Point

I wish they would have included a top ten for the state because there are plenty of possibilities to be listed in Oregon.

[THuckaby2]

Matt:  those are all GREAT calls!

Taking them in order:

Primm Valley (Nipton) / 36-hole design by TF / I like the Desert Course more than the Palm.

I played Primm - Desert - LOVED IT!  I considered that Nevada though... if that is indeed CA, which I guess it is, then it merits inclusion for sure.  I didn't play the other one, thought it was called the Lakes...

Redhawk (Temecula) / Not bad design that gets mixed reviews but again to me it's a borderline call for top 25 status

Haven't played it, sure have seen it (driven by), hear the same as you.

Desert Willow / Fire Cliff ... Solid effort by Hurdzan / Fry and course is owned by town of Palm Desert. Lots of strategy involved with the design. Have to say this is underrated.

AGREED 100% AND YES I HAVE PLAYED THIS ONE!  Great calll indeed.  I had a blast there. That one shoves one out of my top 20 for sure.  Ommission on my part.

Shadow Ridge (Palm Desert) ... Owned by Marriott and course has the Faldo name attached as designer. Bunkering is indeed unique for what you normally see in the Coachella Valley.
Landmark / North Course ... Not bad and worthy of being included in the top 25.
Meadows del Mar (Del Mar) ... TF design set on good terrain ... really love the long par-4 5th (?). Have not played the course in two years so don't know what's happened since.

Haven't played any of these but have heard great things also.

Desert Dunes / RTJ Jr design located on the windy area between the pass leading out of Banning. Some days the course is nearly impossible to play. Still, a worthy effort.

LOVE IT!  And you are damn right re the wind.  I've played DD three times and got lucky with wind two out of the three.. the unlucky time was as close to unplayable as this golf nut ever faced.  But that could indeed merit inclusion also.

Thanks!

TH