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Ben Sims

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Ballyneal Criticism
« Reply #25 on: July 14, 2010, 06:52:48 PM »
Anthony, I wasn't trying to be funny. With the exception of the last one, these are all real criticisms I've heard about BN.

And you might even have heard that one too!

Steve Kline

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal Criticism
« Reply #26 on: July 14, 2010, 08:20:55 PM »
I was in the group yesterday with Jim for the "retarded" green comment. It was from a member of course that has hosted lots of USGA championships. Said commenter also stated that Pine Valley might make his top ten courses. Let us just say that Jim and I had some fun discussing the comments on the back nine. The same group also asked Jim why would you want to be a member at BN.

Brad Swanson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal Criticism
« Reply #27 on: July 14, 2010, 08:38:13 PM »
I'm not a fan of the closing 2 holes.  I can't quite put my finger on it, but they feel somewhat inconsistent with the rest of the course.  Regardless, I still love the course. Flame away.

Oh and the lack of designated teeing grounds, I mean WTF, did the club run out of $$ for tee markers? ;)

Brad
« Last Edit: July 14, 2010, 08:41:58 PM by Brad Swanson »

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal Criticism
« Reply #28 on: July 14, 2010, 08:46:19 PM »
Given the consensus tongue-in-cheek comments, are we therefore to conclude that this golf course is a perfect 10? 

Mike
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

JC Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal Criticism
« Reply #29 on: July 14, 2010, 08:47:06 PM »
Given the consensus tongue-in-cheek comments, are we therefore to conclude that this golf course is a perfect 10?  

Mike

Not for you Bogey, the bunkers are fuzzy. ;) ;D
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

Sean Leary

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal Criticism
« Reply #30 on: July 14, 2010, 09:03:07 PM »
Bogey,

If they added some runway tees it would be.

Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal Criticism
« Reply #31 on: July 14, 2010, 09:05:50 PM »
I don't think these criticisms are necessarily tongue in cheek.  I haven't played the course, but I've heard many people voice opinions that are less than glowing about the course and they are pretty much all the ones touched on in Jim's opening post.  

Frankly, this is what I like about golf.  Some like a highly manicured course, some like a more natural one.  Some like "fair" greens, some like wild ones.  Different strokes for different folks.  Nothing wrong with that.

Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Jaeger Kovich

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal Criticism
« Reply #32 on: July 14, 2010, 09:21:56 PM »
My complaints:
- I could have used a few more weather shelters.
- A map for finding the subgrade trash bins would have been nice.
- Get rid of the snakes
- Add some trees for shade
- Sell me a yardage book.. dont make me cut deals with my caddy ;D


Tony Weiler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal Criticism
« Reply #33 on: July 14, 2010, 11:03:23 PM »
I have two criticisms of Ballyneal and neither are architecture-related:

(1) without a caddie, the yardage markers are incomprehensible (at least they used to be); and
(2) it can be extremely hot out there in eastern Colorado.  

These days the caddies carry lasers and the golf shop will loan you one.  When I was there in June it was in the 50's!
Is it blasphemy to ask whether a SkyCaddie is allowed?

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal Criticism
« Reply #34 on: July 14, 2010, 11:06:05 PM »
I have two criticisms of Ballyneal and neither are architecture-related:

(1) without a caddie, the yardage markers are incomprehensible (at least they used to be); and
(2) it can be extremely hot out there in eastern Colorado.  

These days the caddies carry lasers and the golf shop will loan you one.  When I was there in June it was in the 50's!
Is it blasphemy to ask whether a SkyCaddie is allowed?

would it be blasphemy to put in 150 markers?
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal Criticism
« Reply #35 on: July 14, 2010, 11:28:32 PM »
If there are no carts, cart paths, teeing blocks, hole markers, or any other above ground objects, (save for a cooler or iced water) what makes you think something as commonplace as a 150 yard marker would be acceptable?

Does the make-up of the course, or it's membership, lead you to believe they would want such a thing?

Use the bunkers or other features to figure yardages.

You have to have a need for caddies to have a successful program. Range finders and Sky caddies, as far as I know, are not not allowed. You may even be able to ask for one of the hand held devices the caddies carry to assist them in figuring yardage to help you. Either that, or pay attention your first time around when you do have a caddie. Ask them the distance as you walk past key features and remember them.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

PThomas

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal Criticism
« Reply #36 on: July 14, 2010, 11:36:24 PM »
I have two criticisms of Ballyneal and neither are architecture-related:

(1) without a caddie, the yardage markers are incomprehensible (at least they used to be); and
(2) it can be extremely hot out there in eastern Colorado.  

These days the caddies carry lasers and the golf shop will loan you one.  When I was there in June it was in the 50's!
Is it blasphemy to ask whether a SkyCaddie is allowed?

would it be blasphemy to put in 150 markers?

if lasers can be used then my thinking , fwiw, leads me to believe that 1 yardage marker per hole also makes sense...although this is really nitpicking as i REALLY loved BN the times i've been there...and actually played pretty well i think so to hell with all of the yardage aids!
« Last Edit: July 14, 2010, 11:45:56 PM by Paul Thomas »
199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

Steve Lang

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal Criticism
« Reply #37 on: July 15, 2010, 05:29:26 AM »
 8)  Brad Swanson.. i think 17 & 18 are there to transition one back to reality of 21st century golf..


Jim,  i wouldn't change a thing other than the strings on that one acoustic guitar
« Last Edit: July 15, 2010, 05:34:17 AM by Steve Lang »
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal Criticism
« Reply #38 on: July 15, 2010, 05:39:05 AM »
I have two criticisms of Ballyneal and neither are architecture-related:

(1) without a caddie, the yardage markers are incomprehensible (at least they used to be); and
(2) it can be extremely hot out there in eastern Colorado.  

These days the caddies carry lasers and the golf shop will loan you one.  When I was there in June it was in the 50's!
Is it blasphemy to ask whether a SkyCaddie is allowed?

would it be blasphemy to put in 150 markers?

if lasers can be used then my thinking , fwiw, leads me to believe that 1 yardage marker per hole also makes sense...although this is really nitpicking as i REALLY loved BN the times i've been there...and actually played pretty well i think so to hell with all of the yardage aids!

Hallelujah!... "To hell with all the yardage aids!"

To hell with asking caddies for yardages as well... Let them tell you if the shot plays longer / shorter than it looks if you want.... Forget the numbers...

Scott Warren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal Criticism
« Reply #39 on: July 15, 2010, 05:52:09 AM »
Would you have a better chance of beating Mr. Moore at Chambers than you did at BN?  ;D

Only place where I could beat Dan is at a putt-putt.

You must be a good putter. Dan drained everything he looked at when I played with him at Rye. I was getting pretty excited and he calmly, but without any FIGJAM, assured me that sort of behaviour was pretty normal for him.

Bart Bradley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal Criticism
« Reply #40 on: July 15, 2010, 07:26:21 AM »
Jim:

I am a HUGE Ballyneal fan...but I believe it has the wrong grass for the environment.  If Ballyneal had the same playing surface as Wild Horse (which plays remarkably FIRM and FAST and the greens are silky smooth), Balllyneal would be better.

Design-wise, I don't get any of the criticisms.  It is an all-world routing with all-world holes.

Bart

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal Criticism
« Reply #41 on: July 15, 2010, 08:35:50 AM »
Bart, When was the last time you played Wild Horse? Or for that matter BN?

I see no problem with the turf, but I'm open to your justifications for your critique?

« Last Edit: July 15, 2010, 08:54:43 AM by Adam Clayman »
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal Criticism
« Reply #42 on: July 15, 2010, 08:36:39 AM »
Jim's question has a marital equivalent:  "Honey, does this dress make me look fat?"

Only a fool would answer his wife honestly or criticize a member's golf course, particularly when it's outstanding.  Perhaps I'm the man for the job. ;)  

First, on any scale I'd give Ballyneal an 8.  Off the top of my head that puts it in a small class including, among others, San Francisco Golf Club.  

I played only one round at Ballyneal in its infancy on a cool late fall day in the company of Adam Clayman.  It ranks among the ten most enjoyable rounds I've ever played.  I understand one of Golfweek's rating criteria is the "walk in the park test."  I'd give Ballyneal a 12 on their scale of 1 to 10.  I found the golf course to be seamless - from the first tee to the 18th green and every step (even between holes) in between, accomodating or challenging depending upon the golfer's disposition or aptitude.  I like to just hit the ball, find it and hit it again.  Adam's old caddying skills were priceless as his comments were of the nature "you're about 170 out, favor the left side."  I so enjoyed the fellowship of a kindred spirit.  As for my round, I misssed only one fairway, hit all par threes and did not suffer a double-bogey until a pathetic three putt at the 17th.  I don't remember what I shot but it approximated 83.  

I offer the following comments, more as observations than criticisms:

In direct disagreement with Bart, One Man could argue that there are few, if any all-world holes at Ballyneal.  The Other Man could also answer that there are no indifferent or let-down holes either.  While my instincts tell me that there are 18 good to very good holes there, my overall impression of Ballyneal is that the whole exceeds the sum of the parts.  In my view, that's high praise.

What One Man might call "seamless," the Other Man might dub "sameness."   The Other Man  might well draw a different conclusion after playing the course several times.  

One Man might attempt to define the course as a "third shot course," claiming that the key to scoring well at Ballyneal is the pitch or more often the lag putt.  One Man could support that argument by noting that the slow green speeds and inconsistent turf in the course's infancy circumvented the architect's intent (as if the clueless One Man can discern what Tom Doak intended after one round).

One Man might argue that the free flowing teeing ground without markers is a gimmick, having no precedent in the evolution of golf course architecture and too radical a departure from tradition.   The Other Man might note that the One Man might appreciate this elastic element if he  played the course day in and day out.  

One Man might argue that the bunkers, while beautiful and indigenous, neither demand nor dictate strategy.  The Other Man might reply that they are indeed frilly and One Man is known to have a ridiculous affinity for runway tees.

One Man might argue that the extreme width is too accomodating and therefore devoid of strategy from the tee.  The Other Man might retort that multiple plays are required to understand the advantage one gains in approaching specific sections of the greens form various points in the fairway.

One Man might opine that the golf course is devoid of heroic shot requirements.  The Other Man might rebut that the devil is in the details, to be revealed one at a time after years of multiple rounds.

One Man might say Ballyneal's a 7 or 8.  The Other Man might give it a 9 or even 10.  When it's all said in done, both men would enjoy a little table fellowship after a round there, acknowledging their good fortune at having the privilege to play there, be it one or one hundred times.  

Finally, One Man might be greatful that an invitation has been extended to return for a few days to fully enjoy and appreciate the architecture.  Having already admitted above that he's a fool, One Man might never accept this invitation.

Mike

« Last Edit: July 15, 2010, 08:44:57 AM by Michael_Hendren »
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Peter Pallotta

Re: Ballyneal Criticism
« Reply #43 on: July 15, 2010, 09:44:33 AM »
A wonderful post there, Mike, really good. (You have raised your game admirably for a major championship.) I think I'm going to borrow/steal your "One Man" conceit in the future.  You know, my wife is very happy for me that I enjoy golf and these kinds of discussions so much; but she cares not at all for the game itself, and usually turns up her nose at the look of most courses she sees on tv. (She's a real nature lover/naturalist gardener).  But she walked past this morning and froze to watch with me some of the panoramas of the Old Course. Wow she said, you can feel the spirit of nature still there.  And One Man, from the first time he saw pictures of it, had a sense that Ballyneal was (and would increasingly be seen as) one of these kind of Perennials. As One Man has mentioned often on here, the Navajos used to purposely weave a mistake into their otherwise beautiful blankets, so as to let the devil out.

Thanks again for your post. It gave me a feeling of understanding the place.

Peter  
« Last Edit: July 15, 2010, 09:53:38 AM by PPallotta »

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal Criticism
« Reply #44 on: July 15, 2010, 10:00:51 AM »
As One Man has mentioned often on here, the Navajos used to purposely weave a mistake into their otherwise beautiful blankets, so as to let the devil out.

Peter  
I love that line.  My analogy is called "The Hairy Arm:"  An artist is hired to paint a portrait of a man's wife.  The man fashions himself a critic and is known to always find fault.   Accordingly, the artist intentionally paints a little too much hair on one of the arms, a fact quickly picked up by the critical husband.  The artist then repaints the arm and the smug critic is given his due.

Mike
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Bart Bradley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal Criticism
« Reply #45 on: July 15, 2010, 10:03:15 AM »
Bart, When was the last time you played Wild Horse? Or for that matter BN?

I see no problem with the turf, but I'm open to your justifications for your critique?



Adam:

I was at Ballyneal and Wild Horse 6 weeks ago.  The turf was equally firm at both places.  The greens at WH were substantially better in terms of smooth roll.  Perhaps early June is a too early in the season to judge the greens, but WH was far ahead of BN at that time of year.

Adam, the "first cut" of rough at Ballyneal was also a significant problem....While I admit that the fairways are plenty wide and that a well struck shot should not end up in the first cut, this area was so clumpy that it was often impossible to hit the back of the ball.  I had to take 3 unplayable lies in 6 rounds from the "first cut".  There were many times that I would have preferred to have been in the native than in  the first cut.  Now, this may have improved since June as well.

These are minor criticisms of an otherwise outstanding place, course, and club.  Please realize that I LOVE Ballyneal and all that it is.  But it might be even better if the grassing program were/had been different.

Bart

David Mihm

Re: Ballyneal Criticism
« Reply #46 on: July 15, 2010, 10:10:47 AM »
"While my instincts tell me that there are 18 good to very good holes there, my overall impression of Ballyneal is that the whole exceeds the sum of the parts"

"One Man might attempt to define the course as a "third shot course," claiming that the key to scoring well at Ballyneal is the pitch or more often the lag putt."

These are WONDERFUL observations, in my opinion.  I actually don't agree that there are NO world-class holes...I'd put 7, 8, and perhaps even 17 in that category.  Shockingly, given my rep on this site, it's clear to me that Sand Hills has more in that category.  However, it's equally true there are no let-downs, and I think the pacing is among the best in the world.  I literally found myself asking--"when do I get to play the next hole?!"--as I was standing over my second shots because I was so excited by the prospect.  This went on for 35 holes a day and would have continued had I been in better shape!  The finishing stretch is exacting if you are playing for a score or in a match, but still fun!

With your 'third-shot' comment, you identified something that I couldn't put my finger on while I was there, that, in my opinion, was the course's only true weakness.  I did find myself with a number of short approaches, and with no real way to attack certain pins, even from the correct sides of the fairway.  Some of the Yucca hole locations were intentionally tricky, but even more more benign pins in similar positions this would have been the case.

I don't agree that the fairway bunkers are devoid of strategy. They make a huge difference on 3, 8, 10, 12, 13, 14, 17 depending on the wind conditions and where the hole locations are.  I found Ballyneal to be the best Doak course for driving that I'd ever played.

Just my .02.  Your third-shot comment was BRILLIANT; but despite that slight blemish, BN is an overwhelming pleasure to play--particularly in the company of the guys at The Yucca.

Scott Szabo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal Criticism
« Reply #47 on: July 15, 2010, 10:12:08 AM »
Bart,

I was there over the weekend and encountered a few of those lies in the first cut that you speak of as well.  To the best of my recollection it was 5, and each time I had to take a wedge and chop down on the ball, trying simply to advance it back into play.  

My ONLY criticism of the way the course played - hopefully the grass will fill in and this issue will be non-existent in future plays.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2010, 10:19:10 AM by Scott Szabo »
"So your man hit it into a fairway bunker, hit the wrong side of the green, and couldn't hit a hybrid off a sidehill lie to take advantage of his length? We apologize for testing him so thoroughly." - Tom Doak, 6/29/10

Thomas Patterson

Re: Ballyneal Criticism
« Reply #48 on: July 15, 2010, 10:21:18 AM »
When I visited for 2 days in September of 2009, I thought the turf was the very best I had ever played on.  Very firm and fast, beautiful colors and just solid texture and feel.  It created a multitude of options to play different shots.  I really don't have any criticisms from my experience there...and really couldn't see myself having any, even if I had visited numerous times.  Just an amazing and FUN course.

Jim Colton

Re: Ballyneal Criticism
« Reply #49 on: July 15, 2010, 10:28:35 AM »
Bart, When was the last time you played Wild Horse? Or for that matter BN?

I see no problem with the turf, but I'm open to your justifications for your critique?



Adam:

I was at Ballyneal and Wild Horse 6 weeks ago.  The turf was equally firm at both places.  The greens at WH were substantially better in terms of smooth roll.  Perhaps early June is a too early in the season to judge the greens, but WH was far ahead of BN at that time of year.

Adam, the "first cut" of rough at Ballyneal was also a significant problem....While I admit that the fairways are plenty wide and that a well struck shot should not end up in the first cut, this area was so clumpy that it was often impossible to hit the back of the ball.  I had to take 3 unplayable lies in 6 rounds from the "first cut".  There were many times that I would have preferred to have been in the native than in  the first cut.  Now, this may have improved since June as well.

These are minor criticisms of an otherwise outstanding place, course, and club.  Please realize that I LOVE Ballyneal and all that it is.  But it might be even better if the grassing program were/had been different.

Bart

Bart,

I'd like to see these lies in the first cut that you had to take an unplayable out of.  I know it's patchy, but I've yet to encounter anything that I couldn't get a club on and try to hack out of.  I kinda like the randomness of the rough and native.  It seems like an appropriate penalty for missing a 70-yard fairway.