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Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal Criticism
« Reply #125 on: August 21, 2010, 05:01:35 PM »
Mac,

Was that your first Doak experience?  Please expound further....
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal Criticism
« Reply #126 on: August 21, 2010, 06:08:50 PM »
Hey Jud...

yep, first course I've played that was designed by Tom Doak.

I'll expound further, but I'll try to be concise.

The feel of the property was ideal.  It felt like we were in the middle of nowhere with beautiful views and endless horizon in every direction.  Also, the clubhouse and proshop, etc at Ballyneal fit the vibe the course was trying to bring to the table perfectly.  Private golf club with a higher end feel, but yet no "in your face" extravagance.

The forced carry off the first tee was a bit off putting, but I have a bias for the stereotypical Donald Ross, ease the golfer into the round type of hole.  But I made it and got to the green just fine.  But I was a bit dumbfounded by the green.  I was long on my approach shot (and I later figured out I was hitting the ball about 20 yards further than normal, perhaps due to altitude...I am not sure) and had a long undulating putt for par.  With the rough look of the greens and the uphill portion of the undulations, I thought I need to hit the putt really hard.  Well, I did hit it hard...but it turns out I didn't need to.  I think I had a 10 or 15 yard chip to get back on the green!!   :)  Frankly, the way the fairway blends into the greens was pretty cool.  Essentially, it has a seemless transition. 

Other holes and/or items of note are as follows...

the par 3 3rd and its bunkering.  Cool stuff!  Again, I was long off the tee (but this is when I put two and two together concerning how far I was hitting the ball that day) but made a pretty darn good up and down.

hole 7 is one of the best golf holes I've ever played.  The member we played with said he could come out to the hole with a case of beer and a few good friends and spend the entire day just hitting putts on that green.  I whole heartedly agree with that.

Also I got a lesson in why it is important to travel and play differnt golf courses in different locations.  My short game is usually pretty darn good, usually!   :)  But it is an aerial type of short game.  Pop the ball up in the air and try to control the roll out and be left with a reasonable putt.  Well, at Ballyneal with all those undulating greens this is not the way to play the short game...or the long approach game for that matter either.  Watching the member we played with bounce that ball into the greens and riding those slopes was quite frankly amazing and really enlightening.  But, perhaps in a testament to my stupidity or stubborness, it wasn't until the 5th day of our trip and our 3rd round at Sand Hills that I finally tried this low bump and run type of short game style when trying to get the ball close to the pins.  And you know what, it worked amazingly well.  Better late than never, I suppose.   :-\

Like I said previously, I had a great time on the course.  It was a great deal of fun, but I am unsure if it would be everyone's style of golf.  I know the guys I golf with here in Atlanta would be pi$$ed off trying to putt on those greens.  I think they would call those greens "unfair" as they tend to be score focused golfers and the greens probably take a few rounds to get used to and, therefore, score to the level a golfer thinks they should.

One final note/question.  We've talked about match play and stroke play courses.  Would anyone else consider Ballyneal a great match play course?  I  am thinking it might be as (at least in my experience on 1 and 12) big numbers lurk with many of those greens.

Anyway, perhaps this is not as concise as I had hoped...but there are my quick thoughts on the course.
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Tim Bert

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal Criticism
« Reply #127 on: August 21, 2010, 07:12:26 PM »

The forced carry off the first tee was a bit off putting, but I have a bias for the stereotypical Donald Ross, ease the golfer into the round type of hole. 

That's why you play the tee at the end of the fairway in the morning and the diagonal carry in the afternoon.  Can't blame it on the tee markers!

Jim Colton

Re: Ballyneal Criticism
« Reply #128 on: August 21, 2010, 07:26:42 PM »

In all seriousness, a smile never left my face from opening tee shot through holing out on 18.  


Don't sell yourself short Mac....the smile still hasn't left your face! ;D

I'm surprised you guys didn't introduce a new criticism: It's not Dismal River :)

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal Criticism
« Reply #129 on: August 22, 2010, 04:14:09 AM »
Sean - I never said Ballyneal wasn't my type of golf even though I felt it was easy (again put me out there with 15-20 mph winds and I bet I feel differently about how easy the course is). Ballyneal is exactly my type of golf - firm and fast, wild green contours, lots of options, etc.

Steve

My point exactly.  I am sure the course was built with a "wind protection" layer of width and possibly other features/concepts (which I would like to hear about).  For very good players, this means there will be days when the course is truly a walk in the park, but these days will be balanced by the windy days thus creating what is likely to be an incredible spread of scores and variety of features encountered. 

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal Criticism
« Reply #130 on: August 22, 2010, 09:07:39 AM »
Sean. I think that expectation is normal but the reality is different. There have been a few members who have tried to bring "sticks" so they could get the course record. Not one has been able to go below 4 under. I equate it to certain types of holes, that on paper appear easy, but end up biting the player's psyche when they walk off the hole with a disappointing par or devastating bogie. Only in this case it's the whole course. There's not really a breather hole, and each one seems to have a Mojo that can get into a players head when they don't get the ideal bounce and roll.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal Criticism
« Reply #131 on: August 22, 2010, 09:18:23 AM »
Sean. I think that expectation is normal but the reality is different. There have been a few members who have tried to bring "sticks" so they could get the course record. Not one has been able to go below 4 under. I equate it to certain types of holes, that on paper appear easy, but end up biting the player's psyche when they walk off the hole with a disappointing par or devastating bogie. Only in this case it's the whole course. There's not really a breather hole, and each one seems to have a Mojo that can get into a players head when they don't get the ideal bounce and roll.

Adam

When I speak of diversity of scores and different features being highlighted I mean by the same player over several games. 

Unless Ballyneal is/will be used for competive play of some sort, I think -4 is an excellent low score for such a new course that I am guessing gets relatively few rounds a year.  I bet that score will drop over time especially if the course is used for a decent level comp. Of course, I am one to believe that a "record" score can only take place in a comp. - funzies gof doesn't cut it for records.

I know what you mean about false breathers though.  It is these type of courses I tend to really like because it takes some time to realize why the holes aren't breathers and that the strategy of these holes changes with conditions, temperment and just how its going on any given day.

Ciao   
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal Criticism
« Reply #132 on: August 22, 2010, 09:20:29 AM »
Mac,

Welcome to the ground game!  Gotta work on that rescue club chip before you hit the U.K.  Next stop Bandon!
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Jim Colton

Re: Ballyneal Criticism
« Reply #133 on: March 01, 2012, 08:57:28 PM »
Gratuitous bump for those who want to whip the cow.

Emile Bonfiglio

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal Criticism
« Reply #134 on: March 01, 2012, 09:03:11 PM »
Gratuitous bump for those who want to whip the cow.

Who owns the Cow right now anyways?
You can follow me on twitter @luxhomemagpdx or instagram @option720

Jason Hines

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal Criticism
« Reply #135 on: March 01, 2012, 09:18:52 PM »
Is there still an auction on the courthouse steps on March, 7th?

Ross Harmon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal Criticism
« Reply #136 on: March 02, 2012, 11:56:56 PM »
I've got nothing... Best course I've ever played! Fun, fun, fun from start to finish!

Mark Saltzman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal Criticism
« Reply #137 on: March 03, 2012, 12:04:02 AM »
Not sure if this is a criticism (might be a compliment), but the course is not overly fun the first time around (perhaps this explains the low mag ratings if panelists only play it once).

Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal Criticism
« Reply #138 on: March 03, 2012, 07:08:50 AM »
Not sure if this is a criticism (might be a compliment), but the course is not overly fun the first time around (perhaps this explains the low mag ratings if panelists only play it once).
[/quote

Mark, I know you regard Ballyneal very highly...and this just adds to my confusion on this statement.  Can you elaborate?  I had a hoot playing Ballyneal the first time (and every time) and I'd like to understand you better on your point.

Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Mark Saltzman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal Criticism
« Reply #139 on: March 03, 2012, 10:48:26 AM »
Mac, not going to be in front of a computer for a few days but I'll give a brief answer.

Ballyneal is a very complicated golf course. There is place you can miss and places you can't and they are not always obvious.

Like I said this is not really a criticism. Sand Hills is complicated (though I think lessso) and Prairie Club Dunes is complicated. They get much better with repeat plays.

A couple examples of the complicated nature of BNeal for a first time around...

All of the width on 1 is not obvious from the 1st tee making that feel like a very difficult tee shot and may just get your day started off the wrong way.

Caddie trying to explain the countouring of the LZ on 2 was a bit overwhelming.

Tee shot on 6 is very difficult to understand without having played it once. Ditto 7 tee.

The approach to 9.

10 tee.

There are many, many shots that I found hard to understand just based on what my caddie was telling me, none moreso than 17 tee. Everything was telling my eyes I want to be right, but the huge ridge bisecting the fairway is unforgiving if you hit it in the wrong spot and well-struck tee shots to this blind LZ can easily find the bunkers.

On top of that, it takes a bit of time to get into the Ballyneal mindset. No tee markers. Conditioning that is good but it is fescue fairways and greens so that take time to get used to. No yardage markers.

I played the whiskey loop the night I got there. I hated it. I thought to myself "crap, I'm really spending two full days here?". My first round was not fun (it wasn't because of the company) as I spent the whole round trying very hard to understand the caddie and then getting to the green and saying "ohhhh, now I get what you mean.". As you know, though, I love Ballyneal. It took a couple of rounds but I got there. If some can get there right from the first tee on day one, good for them, but I suspect I am not in the minority.

Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal Criticism
« Reply #140 on: March 03, 2012, 11:46:31 AM »
I think you might be spot on.  I did love it right away, but I've yet to take a group of non-GCA guys who LOVED it right away.  Good point.
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Ross Harmon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal Criticism
« Reply #141 on: March 03, 2012, 10:54:22 PM »
Mark -

I guess I can agree with the tee shots on 1 and 10... Especially if you didn't get to the range in the morning... ;)

What is "LZ"? I'm think ing you're referring to the speed slots on 2 and 10... Haven't heard LZ before though.

Bart Bradley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal Criticism
« Reply #142 on: March 04, 2012, 04:06:53 PM »
Mark,  I was in love with the place from the first moment I stepped on the property.  I loved my first, second,...and every round since.  I can't even generate empathy for your position.  It seems to run counter to nearly everything that many on here robustly support.  Why would a complicated course be something that makes you dislike it?   I like courses that surprise me and those where I can't see everything from the tee.  I love Lahinch and Prestwick for example. 

You say that complicated courses "get much better with repeat plays".

Mark, I am certain that you understood Ballyneal better with repeat plays but the course itself didn't change at all.  Do you really want a course that reveals all immediately as you walk up to the tee?  Maybe you could try to explain again, but I just don't understand your stance.  Since this is a discussion board, I thought I'd tell you and see if we could discuss.

On a seperate note, I must also retract one of my criticisms that I posted in the past.  On my July 2011 visit, I discovered that the first cut of rough is now filling in and although it still provides an uncertain lie (which I find completely acceptable) it did not seem to create wholly unplayable lies.

Bart

Jim Tang

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal Criticism
« Reply #143 on: March 04, 2012, 04:24:42 PM »
I believe LZ stands for landing zone.

Mark Saltzman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal Criticism
« Reply #144 on: March 04, 2012, 04:32:13 PM »
Bart,

Happy that you challenge my statements. Discussion is what this site is all about.

I still do not have access to a computer (trying to answer on my difficult to type on iPhone) so I will give a more complete answer tomorrow.

Did I say that I disliked BN because it is complicated? I think I just said the round wasnt fun. Maybe a distinction without a difference, but I don't think so.

But like I said, I'll try to answer tomorrow.

Keep in mind, though... I have said many times that Ballyneal is the most fun course I have ever played...

Bart Bradley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal Criticism
« Reply #145 on: March 04, 2012, 05:02:37 PM »
Mark:

I will await further explanation.

But I'll add this to my list of questions:  isn't part of the fun trying to figure out a complex course?  It is for me.

Bart

Ross Harmon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal Criticism
« Reply #146 on: March 04, 2012, 08:28:25 PM »
I believe LZ stands for landing zone.

Thanks Jim!

Jay Flemma

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal Criticism
« Reply #147 on: March 05, 2012, 02:54:57 PM »
There is no slot machines.

Any place with Bally in the name should have slot machines.

Or pinball machines.

...When I was in prep school a I dated the daughter of a guy who made pinball machines.  Gottlieb...
Mackenzie, MacRayBanks, Maxwell, Doak, Dye, Strantz. @JayGolfUSA, GNN Radio Host of Jay's Plays www.cybergolf.com/writerscorner

Sven Nilsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal Criticism
« Reply #148 on: March 05, 2012, 03:01:53 PM »
There is no slot machines.

Any place with Bally in the name should have slot machines.

Or pinball machines.

...When I was in prep school a I dated the daughter of a guy who made pinball machines.  Gottlieb...

Cool story brah.
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Mark Saltzman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal Criticism
« Reply #149 on: March 05, 2012, 11:34:14 PM »
Mark,  I was in love with the place from the first moment I stepped on the property.  I loved my first, second,...and every round since.  I can't even generate empathy for your position.  It seems to run counter to nearly everything that many on here robustly support.  Why would a complicated course be something that makes you dislike it?   I like courses that surprise me and those where I can't see everything from the tee.  I love Lahinch and Prestwick for example. 

You say that complicated courses "get much better with repeat plays".

Mark, I am certain that you understood Ballyneal better with repeat plays but the course itself didn't change at all.  Do you really want a course that reveals all immediately as you walk up to the tee?  Maybe you could try to explain again, but I just don't understand your stance.  Since this is a discussion board, I thought I'd tell you and see if we could discuss.

On a seperate note, I must also retract one of my criticisms that I posted in the past.  On my July 2011 visit, I discovered that the first cut of rough is now filling in and although it still provides an uncertain lie (which I find completely acceptable) it did not seem to create wholly unplayable lies.

Bart


Bart,

As promised, I will try to explain (though a lot of what I feel is said in reply 139.)

First, a question for you, what courses that you have seen (or even if you haven't, but are aware of) are as complicated as Ballyneal? For mine, there is only one -- Prairie Club (Dunes).  All of the great courses (defined by mag rankings) I have played present themselves much more obviously than Ballyneal the first time around. Shinnecock, Merion, Oakmont... I am sure I missed many things at each playing it once, but never was I confused/surprised by what I saw.  (As an aside, I too love Lahinch, it is in my personal top-10).

I think the biggest thing for me at Ballyneal in the first round I played was information overload.  There is just so much to take in and try to understand.  Take 5 green (we had a back pin).  I remember the caddie telling me something like: "if you hit it at the right side of the green, it will kick toward the centre.  If you're a bit short on that line you leave a tough putt.  If you hit it at the left side then you have a chance of getting it really close.  But, if you leave it a bit short on that line, two-putt is almost impossible.  Bunkers left are dead.  You should probably just take enough club to hit it over the green and try to get up-and-down from there."

It was just too much for me.  It was too complicated.  I was trying to absorb everything the caddie was telling me, and then hit the shot.  But I was so confused on so many shots that I couldn't really enjoy it (funnily enough, I did manage to shoot a very good score --74ish I think).  Too often I was just doing what the caddie said, not really understanding what he was telling me to do (I had a very similar experience at The Old Course and I seriously regret taking a caddie -- he told me what to do and I did it -- did not get the thinking experience I should have).

The blind shots no longer required my intuition -- there wasn't a question of whether I had gauged all of the visual cues correctly.  Instead they became a question of whether I followed my caddie correctly.  It is a different, and much less interesting, sense of anticipation.

Honestly, Bart, the more I think about it, the more I think I would have enjoyed it better with less information.  I wasn't out there trying to figure out the course on my own, I was being told everything about the course by someone who had already figured it out. 

I hope this makes sense and explains why I didn't have fun my first time around.

Feel free to continue to ask away and I will do my best to explain myself.