Ballyneal Criticism

[Adam Clayman]

John Mayhugh, That's fair enough. While the golfing exudes a purity, the reality with the caddie program is that without the electronic device, there would be a lot fewer caddies. I know they are trained to keep them in their bib pocket, to avoid the perception of a blatant use of them. But, this is not a big city mentality and they have to draw kids from towns almost as far away as where I live, to keep the numbers up, so that when they do have weekends, like this last with the Yucca, they have enough to draw from. Dale Stoner does a great job making sure the program is a viable one. with continuity.

RJ, and others whp've opined on the turf-- To assume there's a problem is not  fair, or, accurate. The turf there is just as fine as the surfaces at Bandon. From what I can tell. The problem I suspect, from reading between the lines of the criticisms, is not with the turf, but with the expectations of having a perfectly manicured lie, on every single shot one plays. The opinion that it should have a first cut, like that at Wild Horse, is questionable since the fairway grass at Wild Horse is a Blue grass. It would be a maintenance nightmare trying to keep the blue from invading the whole place. As I mentioned earlier, the dotted clumpiness on the very edge of the surrounds is the desired look and works on a C,C & P level. (Thanks Bob Crosby)

The real crit should be directed to the editors of the most recent 'world atlas of golf'.   

[Mike Hendren]

Ballyneal is a treasure. 

One of only four "10s" in the world IMO.

The other three? 

Kindest regards,

Mike

[Scott Szabo]

Steve,

Agree with your comments.  I too carry the ball not much more than 240 or so, but can get it out there about 300 or so wiht the firm conditions at BN.  From the tips I too usually have about 200 or so in on 6, as well as 10.  I usually stay away from the tips on 13 because of the carry required, which is about the same as what I get from a good drive.  Miss it at all and it won't make the fairway.

There are so many teeing areas at BN, some of which we were shown in our match with our host that at times we really don't know if we're playing the tips or not.  From those tees it's all I can handle and then some.

Glad you enjoyed your trip to BN - it is indeed a special place.

[Scott Szabo]

Scott - 18 is great, but its not the best Doak #18.. I thought Riverfront, in Virginia was better... told the same to Wyatt. Still cant believe D^2's ball stayed on top. I was looking at a 2 putt par for extras, what a match!

Rich - I hit 6 and 13 at one point this week, and if I can go 3-wood - 8-iron on #2, a bigger hitter can pull wedge. You've just got to hit a low ball to the far left edge of the fairway. There is no way I hit wedge on 10!

DD's ball was oh so close to coming back down the hill.  If it had, I'm sure we would have been heading out for extra holes as I can't imagine getting it down in two from where it would have rolled to.  Indeed a great match!

[Jim Colton]

5.  I do not understand why the caddies use range finders.  This seems really inconsistent with the policy towards tee markers, yardage plates, sprinkler heads with yardages, and yardage books.  I think that if a caddie cannot learn to read a yardage book (it's not difficult), then they really aren't ready to go out on their own.  Even if you do need to send out kids that cannot look up a yardage from a sprinkler head, they could at least let the player look at the book.

I like Ballyneal very much, but I don't see how range finders fit there. 

John,

 I don't think there is a conflict between the lack of yardage markers and the existence of range finders/GPS.  The club pretty much has no rules, other than maybe "don't be a prick".  So if a player wants to feel his way around the course, he can do that.  If a player wants a number, he can get a number easily through a caddie or a GPS unit, either brought or borrowed.  I don't usually take GPS units and often play in the afternoon without caddies, but I'll ask for an approximate number if somebody has it handy.  Eventually, I hope to ween myself away from the GPS, but am nowhere close to that point yet.  It takes all of my energy just to stay out of the yucca.

  Jim

[Sean_A]

I am surprised at the short yardage/easy criticism of Ballyneal.  My impression is that Doak was trying to allow for a spread of scores and therefore difficulty depending on the conditions (much like many non-champiosnhip links), but still incorporate a balance of interest and challenge in the design itself.  To my eye, this looks to be Doak's best effort precisely because he seems to rely more on ground movement (and the width which allows the player to take advantage of this) than hazards, but still keeps players honest with a certain number of bunkers  for every player which can't be ignored- which is exactly what must be done to keep a links playable in high winds.  Look at TOC yesterday and imagine the few nasty areas of rough gone and fairway replacing it.  Take away many of the bunkers (which I believe TOC can do) and that in a nutshell is what my impression of Ballyneal.  I understand that this concept of "enough rope to hang yourself" doesn't appeal to some on a weekly basis because they want a more predictable and consistent test of skill, but that only means that links golf isn't their favourite type of golf - fair enough.  Moreso than any course 


Ciao     

[Steve Kline]

Sean - I never said Ballyneal wasn't my type of golf even though I felt it was easy (again put me out there with 15-20 mph winds and I bet I feel differently about how easy the course is). Ballyneal is exactly my type of golf - firm and fast, wild green contours, lots of options, etc.

[Tyler Ince]

I have to start out by stating I absolutely loved all 4 rounds at Ballyneal in June. If I had to be critical about the course I would say I expected it to play more links-style. The greens held very well compared to counterparts in Scotland where a pitch mark is never found. This was not as much of a bump and run course and I tended to fire at the pin much moreso than in Scotland. That being said.....I would still play that course everyday if I could.  The caddies were great with their honesty "I don't play golf and cannot read a green, just wanted to be up front with you from the start". Or my favorite as we were on #10 fairway after good tee shots "You are about 450 yds out" (still reading hole #9)

[Matt Schmidt]

If I had to be critical about the course I would say I expected it to play more links-style. The greens held very well compared to counterparts in Scotland where a pitch mark is never found. This was not as much of a bump and run course and I tended to fire at the pin much moreso than in Scotland.

And Tyler, I would add that because the greens held so well when I was there, the width made driver skill much less important.  That is, you could bang the ball anywhere in the wide fairways and still have a decent shot at the pin.

BUT, and it's a huge BUT, I'm pretty sure that is because there were huge storms the Thursday night before I played, and considerable rain during the weekend rounds.  If played again under more normal conditions, I think the true intent of the course would shine through.  That is, I'm confident that the course would play more as you expected during normal Summer weather.  Jim can correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure I'm not. 

As it is, the course played like more like TOC this past Thursday.  But I'm sure it can play like TOC did on Friday afternoon under different conditions.

My main criticism is that now I think my wife's breakfast burrito sucks - no green chili - what is she thinking???

[Richard Choi]

I think the rains this summer have really softened the conditions at Ballyneal. This was my 3rd visit and this is the first time I had to fix pitch marks on the green. The greens usually have that hollow "thunk" sound when you hit it, but I did not hear that all weekend.

The course plays as firm and fast as Bandon Dunes, if not more.

[Adam Clayman]

Yes, I really can not stand a course that can play so differently from day to day, or, in this years case, year to year. Where's the consistency? Where's the predictability?







 

[Scott Szabo]

Guys,

When it rains, it will be softer than normal.

When it doesn't, it will play firm.

The staff cannot control Mother Nature.  I assume this is the case  across the pond as well.

For what it's worth, I've never had to fix a ball mark at Ballyneal.  Never. 

[Steve Lang]

  ADAM, COME OVER TO THE 45TH PARALLEL IN  MICH..  VERY PREDICTABLE GRASS FOR THE MOST PART 

JIM COLTON YOU ARE THE CLaSSIC NULL HYPOTHESIS .. NICE THREAD

[John Kirk]

Criticism:

It does not start and end in the middle of town.

[John Kirk]

I hereby reinstate myself as the world's greatest thread killer.

[Richard Choi]

Does that make me a "thread urinator"?

[Mike Demetriou]

The only thing I can add in terms of serious criticism is that there should be more water (bottled or otherwise) available on the course. It is the only thing missing from my perspective. It can get quite hot out there, and holes 19 - 36 can get pretty tough without enough water... a truly easy fix.

[Tyler Ince]

i have played in scotland separate times and really cant ever think of fixing a pitch mark even with huge rain showers. i guess i might have to go again to see if i can make one! Scotland August 2011

[Jud_T]

My vote for dumbest criticism, having not yet seen the place:

The course has no trees

[Mac Plumart]

Like I said before, I think many valid criticisms are outlined in Jim's first post.  I've heard other people say the conditioning of the course isn't good as well, particularly on the greens.  Also, choice of grass for the greens might turn people off.

But I think the bottom line is that if someone's criticisms of the course lead them to not enjoy playing it, then it just simply isn't their "type" of golf course.  Some might like straight forward, stereotypical American Championship golf courses.  Which Ballyneal clearly is not.

Does this make it a bad course?  Of course not.  I enjoyed it and think it was a great course, but I can see where its uniqueness might not be everyone's cup of tea.

[Tim Bert]

Mac - did you play it last week?  How was the condition of the greens and the course?

[Mac Plumart]

Tim...

I thought it was fabulous conditioning wise and playability wise.  

Except for that first green.  WAY to fast!!!  I putted completely off that bad boy and had a sizable chip to get back on in route to an opening triple.  Not my fault I tell you...the green was too fast...way too fast...never mind my playing partners getting more or less pars...they got lucky!!!  

In all seriousness, a smile never left my face from opening tee shot through holing out on 18.  

Oh yeah...7 is one of my favorite holes played to date.  Amazingly fun!

[Eric Smith]

In all seriousness, a smile never left my face from opening tee shot through holing out on 18.  

Don't sell yourself short Mac....the smile still hasn't left your face!

[jeffwarne]

Guys,



For what it's worth, I've never had to fix a ball mark at Ballyneal.  Never. 

pretty sure I overheard one of my members say that the other day also

[Sven Nilsen]

The only thing I can add in terms of serious criticism is that there should be more water (bottled or otherwise) available on the course. It is the only thing missing from my perspective. It can get quite hot out there, and holes 19 - 36 can get pretty tough without enough water... a truly easy fix.

Try holes 37 to 54.  The extra 3 or 4 bottles you pick up at 6 and 14 add a bit of weight to an already heavy bag.

A couple of follow up points on the conversation:

1.  There's no need for yardage markers, lasers or any other distance assistance.  Its a members course.  Plus most guests generally play more than one round, and even with the different teeing areas, its pretty easy to figure out the appropriate club.  I've played with Jim using caddies one round, a gps another and going blind, and I think the blind approach makes the course the most fun.

2.  Although Wild Horse and BN are only separated by a couple hours drive, I think they are much different courses.  WH can get away with slightly slicker greens, as the undulations on the greens are not quite as severe as at BN.  WH is also generally a flatter course, both overall and with respect to the lies you'll find in the fairway and thus its a lot easier to find GIR's at WH than at BN. 

3.  Having played BN in a 8.5 out of 10 on the wind scale, I'd say some of the fairways aren't quite wide enough. 

4.  I disagree that the short par 4's offer no strategy.  Downwind, I think they require precision if one is going to pull driver from the bag.  For example, a pushed drive on 7 that does not catch the speed slot leaves a tough recovery from the rough on the complete wrong line into that green (with the bank on the left of the green being the only saving grace).  12 has all kinds of trouble for an errant drive to the right, and a pulled drive that runs pin high to the left can present an incredibly fun pitch shot depending on which of the quadrants holds the pin.  Into the wind, I think the holes become a complete test of decision-making, as alot of the hazards that don't come into play are now lurking to bite you.

5.  I automatically dismiss any criticisms based on greens not holding approaches that hit pin high.  The party making this point is either or moron or completely unaware of anything other than overwatered golf courses.

6.  The caddy program to me seems to be a work in progress.  I understand its hard to recruit young experienced caddies in Holyoke, and I think this leads to a preponderance of kids who don't have the experience necessary to dole out the advice most of us would seek during a first or second round at the course.  But after that, if you can't figure things out for yourself, you're obviously a slow learner.

7.  Re the par three's being a weakness and playing short, with the multiple teeing areas and constantly changing wind conditions, I don't see how this thought is possible.  Try 15 from the cranks into a stiff breeze.  Or 5 from the left side of the 4th green. 

I think Mac summed it up well by saying it may not be for everyone, but for those who like it, its hard to beat.