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Bob_Huntley

Re: Sand Hills vs XY and Z
« Reply #25 on: July 14, 2010, 11:14:23 PM »
Mike,

Now that was a golf trip, I can think of few that compared.

Getting better slowly but I haven't picked up a club in over two months and quite frankly, don't miss playing.

Best wishes.


Bob


Chip Gaskins

Re: Sand Hills vs XY and Z
« Reply #26 on: July 14, 2010, 11:32:06 PM »
Welcome back Bob, glad to see you back up and about!

Chip

Gene Greco

Re: Sand Hills vs XY and Z
« Reply #27 on: July 15, 2010, 06:47:43 AM »
I may not have read the critique of Sand Hills correctly but to say the running shot is not on there, is nonsense. I played 18 holes with Neil Regan and he used a puterr on every second shot to the green; and I must say, very effectively.


Bob

Well, now.

MY cavalry has arrived.

Welcome back my friend.
"...I don't believe it is impossible to build a modern course as good as Pine Valley.  To me, Sand Hills is just as good as Pine Valley..."    TOM DOAK  November 6th, 2010

David Mihm

Re: Sand Hills vs XY and Z
« Reply #28 on: July 15, 2010, 10:22:23 AM »
I want to reiterate that in no way do I think SH is a 5 -- that was said over beers to a very animated Rich Choi!! Please attack me on the grounds of my verbal statements rather than that number -- which some have done respectfully and eloquently in respect to my POV that the ground game is too difficult to play @ SH.  Perhaps playing SH with a stick who really 'knows the course' would have shown me the error of that judgment.

Tom Huckaby

Re: Sand Hills vs XY and Z
« Reply #29 on: July 15, 2010, 10:43:34 AM »
David:

My opinion remains that that's the greatest misconception you - and a few others - have about the course.  I hope I countered that respectfully and eloquently in the other thread.

I think you do need to play it again, not necessarily with a stick who knows it (why would he ever use the ground game ANYWHERE?), but perhaps with a not so much of a stick who has good imagination for rolls, but not great skill nipping wedges off tight lies.  That is, play with ME.  I have to believe that would make you see it very differently.

 ;)

BTW, yeah you didn't say 5... you said 6.  That's not a huge improvement.  Care to change that number?

 ;D
« Last Edit: July 15, 2010, 10:45:49 AM by Tom Huckaby »

Sean_A

Re: Sand Hills vs XY and Z
« Reply #30 on: July 15, 2010, 07:19:45 PM »
The middle of the front nine at Carne is horrible with the parallel holes that are separated by poorly created artificial mounds. Yuck, yuck, yuck. Why in the world route the holes through that portion of the property when you had other wild tumbling land at your disposal?  ???

Poor routing + poor construction + poor strategy (insufficient width to create interesting playing angles) + poor quality of holes on the front = missed opportunity.

I will say the eighteenth hole is one of the best, least known links holes anywhere - I just wish there was more of that. Maybe if Coore had routed the course, there would have been  ;)

Cheers,

Ran

This has to be the most uneven appraisal of course I have read in a long time.  By middle of the front I am assuming you mean #4 - a rather poor par 5 and possibly #7. #s 5, 6, 8 and 9 are all very different holes even if routed back and forth.  Its the random nature of the land which gives them interest if not inherently startegically sound according to C&C principles.  Its sad folks don't accept Carne for what it is - essentially a style of golf fit for 1900 and damn near using equipment and a budget from that period.  When C&C build a course teh interest of Carne on that budget, then I will pay attention to that argument.  I am not saying the course is a world beater, but for a guy to tout the mushy rubbish at Westward Ho! then have the gall to dis a section of holes at Carne which for the most part are far more interesting than something like a third of WH! is really quite something. I also don't understand the width comment - especially for the front nine.  The front nine is one of the most playable set of holes in high wind I can think of.  Its the back nine, through the rougher dunes which has several problematic holes in high winds - which is often the case when cutting holes through dunes like this.     

Ciao     
New plays planned for 2025: Machrihanish Dunes, Dunaverty and Carradale

Neil Regan

Re: Sand Hills vs XY and Z
« Reply #31 on: July 16, 2010, 04:56:10 AM »
I may not have read the critique of Sand Hills correctly but to say the running shot is not on there, is nonsense. I played 18 holes with Neil Regan and he used a puterr on every second shot to the green; and I must say, very effectively.


Bob

Regarding the ground game at Sand Hills:

I have 2-putt birdies at #s 1, 2, 5, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 14, 16

I have 3-putt pars at all the rest except 13 and 17.

Of all the (many) courses that I have played, very few if any come close to Sand Hills for offering Mackenzie's ideal of putting tee to green.

Some of these long putts would not be the right choice in competition. Many would, or might be.



Grass speed  <>  Green Speed

Ran Morrissett

Re: Sand Hills vs XY and Z
« Reply #32 on: July 16, 2010, 07:40:10 AM »
Sean,

The creation of Carne is a wonderful story with the town people pitching in to help Eddie Hackett. Because of their work, we are talking today about Belmullett, which is GREAT and it shows the power of golf.

However, from an architectural perspective, comparing what was accomplished there versus by professionals at Sand Hills is night and day.

I made the journey to the western most part of Ireland based on James Finegan's over the top glowing review. I don't want others to be disappointed.

Personally, I would have liked to have seen man interact differently with nature (better construction technique plus a different routing) but that doesn't diminish the Belmulett story.

Though imperfect, Carne is certainly unique and parts of it offer a crazy wild ride. Still, Sligo is the undisputed king of the west for architecture junkies.

Cheerrs,

Sean_A

Re: Sand Hills vs XY and Z
« Reply #33 on: July 16, 2010, 10:17:32 AM »
Sean,

The creation of Carne is a wonderful story with the town people pitching in to help Eddie Hackett. Because of their work, we are talking today about Belmullett, which is GREAT and it shows the power of golf.

However, from an architectural perspective, comparing what was accomplished there versus by professionals at Sand Hills is night and day.

I made the journey to the western most part of Ireland based on James Finegan's over the top glowing review. I don't want others to be disappointed.

Personally, I would have liked to have seen man interact differently with nature (better construction technique plus a different routing) but that doesn't diminish the Belmulett story.

Though imperfect, Carne is certainly unique and parts of it offer a crazy wild ride. Still, Sligo is the undisputed king of the west for architecture junkies.

Cheerrs,

Ran

Well, at least you have offered some solace.  Perhaps there is a reason Hackett didn't venture where Engh has.  To me, I like the dichotomy of the front and back and even think the front is better.  The back is a lot of walking with too little golf for my taste - though it does have some wonderful holes - if a bit ott when the wind blows. 

Sligo, king of the west?  No doubt Sligo is a lovely course and the one I prefer of all in the west. The first two, #s 5, 12 & 18 all conspire to bring Sligo down a comfortable full notch below Ballynunion.  There is also Lahinch which I think is better and Enniscrone too tips Sligo though it is a very close run affair.  In fact,there is only one course I have seen which I think is better than Ballybunion - Merion. 

Perhaps I will make it to any C&C course someday, but I still think to compare strictly architecturally between most C&Cs and Hackett is an extreme disservice to architecture.  We all need places to play and that is what Hackett provided.  Once in a while he provided a place to play that was extremely interesting, yet still affordable.  It would pay for some on this site to get their heads out of the clouds once in a while and focus more on what is really important in golf.  If those folks don't find Carne as good a course as they shall ever need, its a sad day indeed. 

BTW - all should make the trip to Carne just as they should Sand Hills if given the chance.  Its all golf as it was meant to be played its just that I dare say Carne is a little closer to the salt of the earth.  This is coming from a guy who doesn't place Carne in my 25 favourites or best, but I still have a lot of time for the course.



Ciao   
New plays planned for 2025: Machrihanish Dunes, Dunaverty and Carradale

George Pazin

Re: Sand Hills vs XY and Z
« Reply #34 on: July 16, 2010, 10:30:33 AM »
I may not have read the critique of Sand Hills correctly but to say the running shot is not on there, is nonsense. I played 18 holes with Neil Regan and he used a puterr on every second shot to the green; and I must say, very effectively.


Bob

Regarding the ground game at Sand Hills:

I have 2-putt birdies at #s 1, 2, 5, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 14, 16

I have 3-putt pars at all the rest except 13 and 17.

Of all the (many) courses that I have played, very few if any come close to Sand Hills for offering Mackenzie's ideal of putting tee to green.

Some of these long putts would not be the right choice in competition. Many would, or might be.





Thanks for sharing this, Neil.

Miss your photos on here, hope life is treating you well.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

John Kirk

Re: Sand Hills vs XY and Z
« Reply #35 on: July 16, 2010, 11:17:59 AM »
I may not have read the critique of Sand Hills correctly but to say the running shot is not on there, is nonsense. I played 18 holes with Neil Regan and he used a puterr on every second shot to the green; and I must say, very effectively.

Bob

Regarding the ground game at Sand Hills:

I have 2-putt birdies at #s 1, 2, 5, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 14, 16

I have 3-putt pars at all the rest except 13 and 17.

Of all the (many) courses that I have played, very few if any come close to Sand Hills for offering Mackenzie's ideal of putting tee to green.

Some of these long putts would not be the right choice in competition. Many would, or might be.


Thanks for sharing this, Neil.

Miss your photos on here, hope life is treating you well.


Hi Neil, Bob and George,

I'll play devil's advocate here.  I'm not sure Neil's unusual approach to the ground game, putting the ball from long distances, is terribly relevant when evaluating more typical low trajectory shots.  Sand Hills has a number of greens, such as holes 1, 2, 4, 11, 13, 14 and 18, where the last 10-50 yards short of the green are quite steeply uphill, and though course conditions are ideal for low trajectory play, these types of uphill approaches do not encourage me to attempt a running shot along the ground.  Whether the wind is blowing with or against me, I would likely choose a club that I felt would reach the green on the fly.  In a severe crosswind, I might try to use the fairway.

Especially downwind, you will see balls bound up these slopes onto the green.  I can see a 2-iron on #13, or a fairway wood on #14.  But with a short iron in my hand, like on #2 or #11, I'm only going with the low trajectory play as a defensive move.  There are holes at Ballyneal with steep upslopes as well, like #4 and #11.  You'll often see a fairway wood bound up onto #4 green.  But you would rarely consider bouncing the ball onto #11, maybe in a stiff downwind breeze.

Overall, Sand Hills lends itself well to low trajectory golf, but in the grand scheme of things, I don't feel it is the best ground game course.  Still, Sand Hills is fabulous, and when given the chance last year to rate the course in Ian Linford's poll, I gave it a "10".

If I were to play devil's advocate a second time, Neil's ability to two putt for birdie from long distances at Sand Hills indicates the course contours are too simple, and too easily navigable with a putter.  An example of taking anecdotal data and making a contrarian argument.

Tom Huckaby

Re: Sand Hills vs XY and Z
« Reply #36 on: July 16, 2010, 12:07:29 PM »
John:

Excellent summary.

And I concur with almost everything you write; the only quibbles I have would go hole by hole:

1 - I have indeed played a short appoach along the ground more than I have gone the aerial route... running it up that slope works very well.  But then again, remember I suck at hitting spinning wedges.  Yes, a more skilled player would go up and over most of the time.

2 - I don't see that approach as raised enough to make it count....

4, 11, 13, 14 - same comment as 1

So it depends on the golfer.  I'd also guess there are more of me than there are of the more-skilled players who can nip wedges off tight lies.

The other quibble is this:  I doubt anyone ever said it is “the best ground game course”.  What several of us have countered was the contention that the ground game doesn’t work there much, or at all… and we are all here to tell you that it does, quite well.  But yes, there are also shots that are better played in the air… which adds to variety, I’d say, which is a good thing.

In any case, a 10 it is, and the rest is just quibbling also. 

Mike Sweeney

Re: Sand Hills vs XY and Z
« Reply #37 on: July 16, 2010, 12:08:02 PM »


If I were to play devil's advocate a second time, Neil's ability to two putt for birdie from long distances at Sand Hills indicates the course contours are too simple, and too easily navigable with a putter.  An example of taking anecdotal data and making a contrarian argument.

John,

If you offered me Seve in his prime and Tiger as a team versus Neil alone playing Sand Hills from the forward tees, all with only two clubs, a sand wedge and a putter, I am taking Neil.

An example of creating a hypothetical to counter anecdotal data which was used to make a contrarian argument!   ;)

Similar to St Andews, Sand Hills and Ballyneal (so I hear) can be played a bunch of different ways, especially factoring in the wind. Trying to pick the best way (not that you were personally) is against the spirit of the places.

One of my most fun rounds (actually 9 holes) was a better ball with Christian Greco, Huck, and Uncle Bob Huntley late in the day back in the days when I was longer than Christian from the fronts tees.

Back tees, front tees, mix of tees, aerial, putting, bouncing - diversity is the spice of life - especially at these style of golf courses.

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