[Jud_T]

Jason,

You have to compare apples to apples, so the peak rack rate is what you need to go by.  Lawsonia has an all-day rate of $105 with cart weekdays during peak season (anyone for 54 this summer?), and an annual single membership of $1600.  Not sure what all the fuss about conditioning at Lawsonia is.  Maybe I've only been there in the fall, but aside from greens rolling at 9 or 10 instead of 11, I don't really see much to grumble about.

[Andrew Lewis]

Jason,

You have to compare apples to apples, so the peak rack rate is what you need to go by.  Lawsonia has an all-day rate of $105 with cart weekdays during peak season (anyone for 54 this summer?), and an annual single membership of $1600.  Not sure what all the fuss about conditioning at Lawsonia is.  Maybe I've only been there in the fall, but aside from greens rolling at 9 or 10 instead of 11, I don't really see much to grumble about.

Jud -

Not to be trite, but what does any of that have to do with the courses and their architecture?

Cheers, Andrew

[BCowan]

''Rack-rate tee times at Arcadia Bluffs are for suckers (and, in most cases, corporate events). The ideal time to play is early twilight when you can finish with the sun going down over the lake and then get a drink and watch the last few groups 3-putt the 18th green, and it's $110 in peak season then. The peak rates in the fall, which in the upper Midwest is the best season in the history of climatology, are $75-100. An afternoon round at Arcadia Bluffs for $110 is a pretty nice value. Great service, excellent course conditions, unbelievable views, lots of fun shots, and pretty good and unique architecture if you're into that sort of thing. Complaining about the peak season greens fee at Arcadia is like complaining that your attempt to attack a front pin on #2 at Kingsley failed - the fault was on you for taking such a sucker play in the first place when you're offered such a big bailout once you get past 3:00 (see what I did there?).''

Andrew,

   Why didn't you ask Jason the same question?  What does great service, excellent course conditions, unbelievable views have to do with architecture?  Then using the twilight rate as a barometer for cost.   

[BHoover]

Ben and Jud,

Why are you opposed to folks wanting to play Arcadia?  Maybe that's not what you're saying, but that's how it appears to me.  What does it matter to you whether I choose to play Arcadia?  How does that possibly impact you at the end of the day?

[BCowan]

Brian,

   I don't care what course you play.  Please provide a quote in which I implied or said what you are accusing me of?  Maybe your perception is off. 

[BHoover]

Brian,

   I don't care what course you play.  Please provide a quote in which I implied or said what you are accusing me of?  Maybe your perception is off.  

See the second sentence of what I wrote in which I conceded that I may be off base.  But my perception is that you are anti-Arcadia, and I definitely don't think that perception is off base.

You made reference to Arcadia being a 5.5 hour death march.  You also referred to its "fancy greens and faux links".  And then there is the comment about the "lemmings" who play there. Sound familiar?

[Jud_T]

Brian,

I could care less if people were paying $180 to line up like lemmings to jump into the lake from the 13th green.  This is supposed to be a critical site about GCA, and on that basis I don't think the value equation is there for AB, that's all.  Obviously a lot of folks are willing to pony up to play ranked courses and bask in water views.  I don't have a problem with that as long as it's an informed choice.  I think if we're simply going to say "whatever" then we're doing a disservice not only to each other but to the casual lurker looking for a bit of guidance from a supposedly informed cognoscenti.

[BCowan]

I would just love the pro Arcadia folk to give solid reasons for liking the course, instead of orgasms for lakeside views?  This is GCA not yahoo golf (don't think it exists, but it should).  AB to me is a perfect property for the Trumpster.  The course is everything I try to avoid in playing these days.  You have people saying it is top 100-200.  Correct me if I am wrong, can you even walk the course?  Does property have to be lakefront to be considered top notch?  The course attracts slow play, but 5.5 hour rounds are okay at AB but not a muni's (so much for consistency).  The positives of AB is it gets yahoo's off the courses I want to play, making play faster and the round more enjoyable.  I usually try to avoid woman that wear a lot of make-up too, which is what AB reminds me of in a golf course!  

[BHoover]

Brian,

I could care less if people were paying $180 to line up like lemmings to jump into the lake from the 13th green.  This is supposed to be a critical site about GCA, and on that basis I don't think the value equation is there for AB, that's all.  Obviously a lot of folks are willing to pony up to play ranked courses and bask in water views.  I don't have a problem with that as long as it's an informed choice.  I think if we're simply going to say "whatever" then we're doing a disservice not only to each other but to the casual lurker looking for a bit of guidance from a supposedly informed cognoscenti.

I haven't played Arcadia, so it's very possible that I might share your view.  But until I play it, I can't say whether I like it or not.  Isn't the point of developing an understanding of golf course architecture to play as many courses as possible and then form an opinion?  For that reason alone, I want to play Arcadia.

If there is a "Holly Sonders" element to it, then so be it.  I'm not opposed to self-improved beauty.   

[Jud_T]

Actually,

I'd rather take the advice of people who's opinion I trust (I may or may not be that guy for you) and AVOID courses that are overrated, aren't good value and/or aren't likely to be my cup of tea than waste valuable time and money figuring it all out for myself.

[Jason Thurman]

Jud, for the record, I'm with you. I've never been disappointed in the conditions at Lawsonia. I just know people who have been. Like the entire staff of Golfweek, apparently.

We also agree that it's a superior course to Arcadia and a superior value. We'd probably even rate the two courses the same on the JT Scale. But if I'm being totally honest, I'd feel a lot more comfortable and offer a lot fewer caveats if I recommended Arcadia rather than Lawsonia to one of my local golf buddies who was asking for a recommendation for a place to play that's about 7 hours away. That's partly because I choose questionable friends, but also partly because Arcadia just has a lot to like, including a fine golf course.

And maybe that really gets toward the point. I see Arcadia as a destination course more than just a great everyday course like Lawsonia. Guys like you and I prefer the great everyday course, partly because we're willing to spend the money to play places like Pinehurst or Pebble or Bandon. But a lot of people aren't, and a place like Arcadia is their Bandon.

As you said, we should be comparing apples to apples. From that perspective, Arcadia is really quite cheap within the niche market it serves. Comparing it with Crystal Downs, Kingsley, Lawsonia, and other great everyday courses isn't really apples to apples. It's resort, destination golf with a corporate slant, and that's not very popular on this site in general. You hate that niche as much as anyone, but putting that aside, you've already compared Arcadia favorably with Whistling Straits. I agree with you - it's probably a better overall value. Do you really think it lags terribly far behind a place like Pebble Beach when you add cost into the equation? Pebble is my favorite course, but even I have to give Arcadia serious consideration for being the better overall value. By the time you start talking about those nickel-and-diming pimps at Pinehurst, it's no contest. No. 2 is stunning, but I'd gladly stay two nights and play four rounds of golf at Arcadia as opposed paying the same price for one night at Pinehurst and playing one round with god-knows-how-many hidden fees disclosed after booking by someone with a sweet southern drawl.

I don't think of Arcadia so much as an expensive course for regular play. I think of it more as an inexpensive place to splurge for corporate luxury destination golf and get a pretty good approximation of the fun, service, scenery, and course quality that goes along with such. Of course I prefer my destinations to look more like Kingsley, but that's really irrelevant.

[Nigel Islam]

Nigel,
 
    Consider yourself lucky, for I talked to a kid who interned there in the golf shop last summer at AB, he said avg round was 5.5-6 hours.

It's not hard to see why he's interning at a golf shop instead of a financial office. He apparently doesn't understand basic math terms, like "average."

Brent nailed it. Arcadia's a good course, but a better place to spend a few hours on a summer afternoon. It's a bit saccharine, a bit noisy, and a bit too derivative of Pete Dye's course across the lake. But it's also a lot of fun, staggeringly beautiful, and about as good of a CCFAD experience as you'll find. That obviously doesn't turn GCAers on as much as it turns on most people. Some of the unwashed masses don't "get it" when they visit Bandon. Some of the hyperwashed GCAers don't "get it" when they visit Arcadia Bluffs. I'm thankful to be one of the few who has nailed my personal hygiene maintenance meld well enough to "get it" no matter where I tee it up.

If you can't appreciate a place like Arcadia Bluffs on a summer afternoon with the sun going down over the lake and a fish sandwich waiting at the clubhouse because "that sod wall bunker is incongruous with the blowout bunker 20 yards away," then you've completely lost touch with what matters. Arcadia is a great place to spend an afternoon hitting a white ball around and laughing with some friends. If you prefer minimalist golf courses over human friendship and natural wonders, then Arcadia is not for you.

Love it!

[BHoover]

Actually,

I'd rather take the advice of people who's opinion I trust (I may or may not be that guy for you) and AVOID courses that are overrated, aren't good value and/or aren't likely to be my cup of tea than waste valuable time and money figuring it all out for myself.

I trust the opinion of some on this site, but others maybe not so much.  Still, I'd rather experience a course for myself.  

[Josh Tarble]

I will chime in why I like the course:

1.  I thought all the par 5s were excellent - and unique.  Most involved decision making on the drive, lay-up and third shot and were not swing away by any means. There are 5 of them, so to have each one be different was a big selling point for me.

2.  I also thought the par 3s were quite memorable and varied.  I also liked having 5 of them, and the yardage was a good mix of short and long.  I also though the par3 by the water was maybe my least favorite.  The others were that good.

3.  The greens were excellent...they were a nice mix of undulating, firm and challenging without being over the top.  There were a few with huge mounds, back to front slopes and I believe 16 was even front to back sloping which I thought was really good.  They were also very congruent with each other without being copies.  A very nice set of greens on the whole.

4.  A couple holes that I've never seen anything like them...specifically 5, 10 and 11 all were really wild and really fun.

5.  The overall routing.  Like I mentioned above, there were 5 par 5s and 5 par 3s.  I really liked that for some reason, and the course was a good mix of challenging, fun and wild. 

A couple things that I didn't really like though:

1.  I wish a few holes went across the property. Generally, the property slopes down towards the lake, and for some reason there were only a couple cross-hill holes.  Most only slope towards or away from the water.

2.  The actual lakeside holes.  I'm sure this results from the steepness of the cliffs on the edge (and their landslide issue) but I thought the two holes next to the lake were fine.  They were not bad or good.  Just fine.  I think more could have been done there.

3.  This may be because we played the tips, but I would have liked a couple more mid-length par 4s.  There seemed to only monster par 4s.  Some of this was negated/accentuated because of the downhill/uphill nature of the course though.

4.  I really disliked 18.  I thought it was too severely uphill and over-the-top hard.  That could stem from my 4 putt for double bogie though.


One thing that I'm not sure if it's good or bad is subtlety.  Or I guess the total lack of it.

 That's one thing that I think sets apart the Straits (which is the natural comparison) from this course.  Certainly the Straits doesn't appear subtle AT ALL from a distance and both are big and bad championship courses.  But there are many things very subtle about the Straits, such as green and fairway undulations, playing angles, even a lot of the shaping and perfectly placed bunkers...nothing about AB is subtle. 


The final thing...and this is non-architecture related...but I hated the flagsticks.  I seriously hated them.  I would normally never say anything about freakin' flagsticks,  but I though the tiny poles played havoc on my depth perception and were harder to gauge the wind.  Seriously so dumb.

[Jud_T]

Jason,

I guess I'm just a snob.  I'd rather play Lawsonia or Belvedere than either AB or WS, then save my shekels for Bandon or GB&I.  Personally I'd have Lawsonia and WS as a 7 and AB and Belvedere as a 6.

[AKikuchi]

Ben,

Arcadia was the first really nice course I ever played, around 7 years ago or so. While I don’t remember it all that well from a traditional architecture/strategic perspective, I do remember the unique experience of playing through a few of the “valleys” between the dunes/mounds. The scale of the dunes makes certain points on the course feel somewhat isolated (even more so if you miss the fairway), which was quite a change from the parkland courses I grew up playing. While that might not result in a course that’s high on the “play everyday” test, it was definitely interesting to see what happens when you take the dunes idea to an extreme.

My clearest memory from the day though was the look we got from the staff when we told them we wanted to walk. We were going out in the late morning and there were no more available caddies, and the guys in the shop, outside guys, and starter all looked at us like we were crazy. Turns out they hadn’t seen anyone carry with their own bags in quite some time. I appreciate a good hike, and was not disappointed in that regard.
-Alan

[Eric Smith]

Brian,

I have played it and you can read my comments back a few pages in this thread if you like. In a nutshell, it was a confounding experience. Will I play it again? Probably. It's been 7 years and I wouldn't mind comparing notes with my memory of the place. I definitely didn't love Arcadia Bluffs and have Forest Dunes and Kingsley pretty far ahead of it, but, again, like you said, no way I'd not want to know for myself.

If you go, do what my friends and I did - book the first twilight time and cruise around in four hours. Hundred bucks. $110 now, I think.

[Nigel Islam]

I would just love the pro Arcadia folk to give solid reasons for liking the course, instead of orgasms for lakeside views?  This is GCA not yahoo golf (don't think it exists, but it should).  AB to me is a perfect property for the Trumpster.  The course is everything I try to avoid in playing these days.  You have people saying it is top 100-200.  Correct me if I am wrong, can you even walk the course?  Does property have to be lakefront to be considered top notch?  The course attracts slow play, but 5.5 hour rounds are okay at AB but not a muni's (so much for consistency).  The positives of AB is it gets yahoo's off the courses I want to play, making play faster and the round more enjoyable.  I usually try to avoid woman that wear a lot of make-up too, which is what AB reminds me of in a golf course!  

Ben, have ever played a course and thought, "That was fun, and the course was kind of neat." Of course you realize that you live 8 hours away and you will never play it again. Its like making a friend, and realizing that you will never see them again. Its just the way life works.

[Jason Thurman]

''Rack-rate tee times at Arcadia Bluffs are for suckers (and, in most cases, corporate events). The ideal time to play is early twilight when you can finish with the sun going down over the lake and then get a drink and watch the last few groups 3-putt the 18th green, and it's $110 in peak season then. The peak rates in the fall, which in the upper Midwest is the best season in the history of climatology, are $75-100. An afternoon round at Arcadia Bluffs for $110 is a pretty nice value. Great service, excellent course conditions, unbelievable views, lots of fun shots, and pretty good and unique architecture if you're into that sort of thing. Complaining about the peak season greens fee at Arcadia is like complaining that your attempt to attack a front pin on #2 at Kingsley failed - the fault was on you for taking such a sucker play in the first place when you're offered such a big bailout once you get past 3:00 (see what I did there?).''

Andrew,

   Why didn't you ask Jason the same question?  What does great service, excellent course conditions, unbelievable views have to do with architecture?  Then using the twilight rate as a barometer for cost.   

If you're going to pick and choose quotes, at least do it correctly. Don't leave the part that completely invalidates your point sitting right there in the quote. Use your backspace key.

You've spent more time in this thread talking about 6 hour rounds than the architecture at Arcadia. I've cited its architectural merits throughout, notwithstanding my last post which was specifically directed at Jud's value-based argument. It's good architecture, though not great. It's worth seeing, though, because it's so stylistically dissimilar from anything else. A true student of GCA should make an effort to at least see the property and the juxtaposition of styles in play and spend some time thinking about what parts work and what parts don't.

If you disagree, give me one specific architectural reason, cited from the course, why a person should avoid playing it. Just one. I'm betting you can't do it, because you haven't played the course or even stepped foot on the property and your entire opinion is based on a preconceived notion of what you think it probably is, likely based on what you've heard other people say. Sounds a bit like groupthink, doesn't it?

Correct me if I am wrong, can you even walk the course?

They have a caddie program, which you could've learned by visiting their website. It's a tough walk, but people do it every day. Seriously, you can't even pass an open-book test. What is your source of information about Arcadia? Is it just the former intern who can't do math that you cited earlier?



Jud, we agree again. If anything, I might knock Arcadia down to a 5 just to outsnob you. But I still think it's worth seeing, and a 5 or a 6 is still pretty good on my scale even if I'd rather play a few of its neighbors.

[Bill Seitz]

I must be in the minority, because I loved the flagsticks.  Whether they're truly necessary, or some sort of gimmick, they were definitely unique and memorable.  

And Brian, I think any course is worth paying for once.  After that, make up your own mind.  Don't let Jud or Ben discourage you from seeing the place for yourself.  If anything, playing a course that we come to think of as "bad' just helps reinforce why we like what we like.  There's certainly value in that.  For me, having only played it the one time, I would probably put Arcadia in the "worth playing every couple of years" category.  I actually wouldn't mind going back, but when you wake up at 7:00 am in a cottage at Kingsley and your options are "get in the car and drive an hour and a half to Arcadia" vs. "walk out the door and play Kingsley", it's a pretty easy decision, even before factoring in that one of those rounds is already paid for.  Then again, I'm usually only there for a couple days at a time.  If I were in the Traverse area for a week or more at a time, I'd probably appreciate the variety.  

[Nigel Islam]

Jason,

I guess I'm just a snob.  I'd rather play Lawsonia or Belvedere than either AB or WS, then save my shekels for Bandon or GB&I.  Personally I'd have Lawsonia and WS as a 7 and AB and Belvedere as a 6.

I have not played Belvedere, but the other three I would agree with you. Obviously you somewhat liked AB, but choose to spend your time and money in other endeavors. I think that is quite reasonable. I'm totally in agreement with that strategy.

[BCowan]

 ''lots of fun shots, and pretty good and unique architecture if you're into that sort of thing.''

  Wow, that was prolific.   

''Correct me if I am wrong, can you even walk the course?''

   did you notice the question mark?  Great you looked over the website, I could care less.  Your smartass remark about an interns ability to do finance was a laugh too.  Like most of your comments it made no sense.  Is AB profitable, dah! 

[Nigel Islam]

Ben, I would suggest that if you are ever in the Western part of Michigan you should at least make a point to stop by the course and look around. It is at the very least worth a 30 minute detour just to walk around for free. Jason makes very good points about some of the unique features. I actually think it is a more visually impressive golf course than Whistling Straits. Obviously Straits is better overall, but when you show up to AB it is actually kind of exciting, and much less touristy.

[BCowan]

Nigel,

   You should go check out sleeping bear dunes (Got rated most beautiful place in the country).  Again it isn't about the money, I'd pay $150 to play Lawsonia over $40 to play AB!  I have no desire to play WS, sorry, don't take it the wrong way.  AB serves a great service, it keeps people that think opposite of me (totally okay) off the courses I want to play or have played.  When we were at Kinglsey, a guy complained to one of the managers and how he wished he was back at AB, however rude of him, I wish he would stay at AB. 

[Jason Thurman]

Ben, did you notice my question marks? I'm seriously interested in hearing you discuss how you have developed your very strong opinions on Arcadia. What sources have you consulted to learn about the course? Whose opinions have you adopted? And really, please share with us all one architectural reason why a GCA aficionado should avoid it. Your sage and credible words might just keep someone from making the mistake of enjoying an afternoon there.

Sleeping Bear Dunes really is beautiful. You can see it from Arcadia. Have you been to Sleeping Bear Dunes or are you recommending it because you've heard it's really cool?

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