[JC Jones]

FYI- I'd play Belvedere or The Mines over Arcadia irrespective of price.

I haven't played Belvedere so won't comment on that.  But I'd ask the basis of your preference of the Mines over Arcadia -- is it the architecture, or is it that the Mines is more suited to your game?  If the latter, I have no issue with playability as a driver of preference, but I question when personal preference is confused with the a priori "goodness" of a course's design.

I have played Arcadia a dozen or so times and think that it is a very good course.  In that area, Crystal Downs and Kingsley (disclaimer:  I am a member) are clearly better.  But Arcadia offers some interesting holes (8 and 12 are two I particularly like) and presents a number of things the hypothetical Ideal GCA'er is supposed to like but, in the case of Arcadia, are quickly dismissed due to the fact that it has a nice veranda and is swarmed by "retail golfers."  I also find some of the criticisms frequently levied puzzling and/or a bit unfair.

For example:

Firm/fast playing conditions -- In my dozen or so plays, Arcadia has been exceptionally firm and fast, which is something I thought GCA'ers liked.

Bold greens -- Massive contours that cause the player to think about approach shots, recoveries and putts?  Check.  I find the recurring criticism that the greens are too bold comical, especially given the praise we collectively bestow on places like Yale.

Mounding / manufactured feel -- Yes, it can feel a bit goofy to play through valleys of tall dunes on flatt-ish fairways.  But don't a number of courses in GB&I follow similar approaches?  And does anybody really think that the Mac-Raynors don't feel "manufactured"?

Walkability / routing -- It isn't the easiest terrain and there are some hefty distances from green to tee in a few places, but it is very doable, especially with a caddie -- and don't GCA'ers support caddie programs?  I'd put it on par with Whistling Straits and Erin Hills in terms of both terrain and distance.

The setting -- Many people will comment on the view and pleasantries of drinks on the porch before discussing the course.  But so what?

For those who haven't played it, I would always recommend a round.  Sure, you might not like it.  But that can the true with any new course and, in this case, at least you'll be able to articulate a reason for said dislike other than the fact that a guy who disses Coldplay and thus must have finely tuned sensibilities  says so.

Andrew,

I agree on the bold/wild greens and the playing conditions.  Both of those are very good.  The mounding, bunkering and fakeness is inexcusable.  And, as far as the setting is concerned, get yourself a couple of rounds at Belvedere and then drive 10 minutes and sit on my back deck and enjoy a sunset over the lake.

[Andrew Lewis]

JC -

I'll concede the bunker style schizophrenia and would find interesting more specifics -- where and why -- on the mounding you find so offensive.

However, I have trouble with your dislike of "fakeness" and Jud's desire for more "naturalness" -- a lazy construct that one is good and the other is not, rooted in vague terms that can't really be defined.

Again, I don't think it's a GREAT course and feel that it is ranked too high on all lists I have seen.  But I do think it's a GOOD course and that some of the criticisms levied here are misguided.

I do need to play Belvedere and would like to do so with somebody who knows the course as well as you.  As for the sunset on your deck, I'll take the offer on the condition of adult supervision...

Cheers, Andrew

[Nigel Islam]

When you factor in the price difference, it's a no brainer to me.

Agreed.  2 rounds at Belvedere with enough for beers at Short's left over...  Arcadia's a fine course, it's just somewhat overrated IMO and priced accordingly.  Digest has it above Olympia Fields, Plainfield, Old Sandwich, Quaker Ridge, Bandon Trails, Boston Golf Club, Winged Foot East, Ballyneal, Aronimink, Kittansett, Somerset Hills, Kapalua and Maidstone.  Perhaps a TAD aggressive.  Maybe something to do with this?:

5. Aesthetics
How well do the scenic values of the course (including landscaping, vegetation, water features and backdrops) add to the pleasure of a round?

It's quite simple.  If on the Nuzzo scale of Pretty, Fun or Challenging you skew Pretty, then this place needs to be near the top of your bucket list.  If not, then perhaps you'll find better value elsewhere.

Digest has it rated too high. It possibly could be top 100, but is definitely not top 50.

[JC Jones]

I do need to play Belvedere and would like to do so with somebody who knows the course as well as you.  As for the sunset on your deck, I'll take the offer on the condition of adult supervision...

Cheers, Andrew

Does Lavin qualify?

[Jud_T]

Andrew,

I played the course several times shortly after it opened and haven't been back since.  I'd have to give it another go to give you a detailed analysis of where it comes up short.  Here's a question-  If you spent a summer in Michigan, played 100 rounds of golf and had equal access to Lost Dunes, Kingsley, Crystal Downs, Greywalls, Belvedere and Arcadia Bluffs and cost was no object, how many rounds would you play at Arcadia?  I'd play zero.

[Josh Tarble]

Jud, I think zero is a silly answer. 

I definitely get that it's not your cup of tea, but in no way is it worth passing over during an entire summer.  I'm in agreement with most on here that it's ranked way too high, but I had a very enjoyable round right at sunset while I was up there.  There are a few holes that are a bit strange, but for the most part it's got some good golf holes, and a couple that are unlike anything else I've played - good or bad.

If you drive all the way up to northern Michigan and skip it, I think that's a mistake. 


Just put it this way, in a 10 round split, it would be Arcadia 10, Spring Valley 0 

[JC Jones]

Andrew,

I played the course several times shortly after it opened and haven't been back since.  I'd have to give it another go to give you a detailed analysis of where it comes up short.  Here's a question-  If you spent a summer in Michigan, played 100 rounds of golf and had equal access to Lost Dunes, Kingsley, Crystal Downs, Greywalls, Belvedere and Arcadia Bluffs and cost was no object, how many rounds would you play at Arcadia?  I'd play zero.

I would play a lot more than zero.  It is fun to play, they allow music on the carts, they have a hot dog guy next to the 7th green and the cart girls make it around frequently enough to keep the drinks flowing.  Not every damn experience needs to be a zen golf, architectural education, etc.

I've not played Lost Dunes so I can't include it in the game but here is how it would break down for me:

Kingsley - 40
Greywalls - 15
Belvedere - 15
Crystal Downs - 20
Arcadia - 10

Actually, I find the morning at Crystal Downs coupled with the afternoon/twilight at Arcadia to be a decent day of golf.

[BCowan]

''Not every damn experience needs to be a zen golf, architectural education, etc.''

Agreed, and not every round needs to be a 5.5 hour death march... 

Hoping to play what looks to be a great Ma and Pa course(s) 20 miles east of CD this summer! 

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,57732.0.html

[Peter Pallotta]

"Actually, I find the morning at Crystal Downs coupled with the afternoon/twilight at Arcadia to be a decent day of golf."

It's the "actually" that really makes this boast sing, and the "decent" that makes it sizzle. There's no better kind of belt notching than belt notching by the supremely smug and blase -- which is what our JC captures perfectly.

As always though, the central question: is it because he's a wonderful impressionist, or is it because he is in fact exactly what he appears to be?!

[Nigel Islam]

Andrew,

I played the course several times shortly after it opened and haven't been back since.  I'd have to give it another go to give you a detailed analysis of where it comes up short.  Here's a question-  If you spent a summer in Michigan, played 100 rounds of golf and had equal access to Lost Dunes, Kingsley, Crystal Downs, Greywalls, Belvedere and Arcadia Bluffs and cost was no object, how many rounds would you play at Arcadia?  I'd play zero.

I think to make that analogy you need to take Crystal Downs out of the equation.

[Nigel Islam]

''Not every damn experience needs to be a zen golf, architectural education, etc.''

Agreed, and not every round needs to be a 5.5 hour death march... 

Hoping to play what looks to be a great Ma and Pa course(s) 20 miles east of CD this summer! 

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,57732.0.html

Ben we played on a pretty busy day, and it was less than 4 hours. I agree with Josh, it is worth a play if you are in the neighborhood. It certainly is a better course than some of the junk I play trying to find 1-2 cool holes at obscure old courses. I love trying the Ma and Pa courses, but honestly most of them are not very good. Arcadia is good, not great.

[Josh Tarble]

Andrew,

I played the course several times shortly after it opened and haven't been back since.  I'd have to give it another go to give you a detailed analysis of where it comes up short.  Here's a question-  If you spent a summer in Michigan, played 100 rounds of golf and had equal access to Lost Dunes, Kingsley, Crystal Downs, Greywalls, Belvedere and Arcadia Bluffs and cost was no object, how many rounds would you play at Arcadia?  I'd play zero.

I think to make that analogy you need to take Crystal Downs out of the equation.

I agree with that...otherwise my list would like like this:

Crystal Downs: 100
Lost Dunes: 0
Greywalls: 0
Kingsley: 0
Belvedere: 0
Arcadia: 0

Haha!  Seriously though, no doubt all the other courses are better than Arcadia.  But it's definitely worth a play. 

[BHoover]

''Not every damn experience needs to be a zen golf, architectural education, etc.''

Agreed, and not every round needs to be a 5.5 hour death march... 

As long as the course is fun, I'm not particularly concerned with playing in 4 hours or less. 

[Jud_T]

I didn't say it wasn't worth playing, just that I wouldn't choose to.  OK, I'd play it once for sheer variety. 

[Ben Kodadek]

"Actually, I find the morning at Crystal Downs coupled with the afternoon/twilight at Arcadia to be a decent day of golf."

It's the "actually" that really makes this boast sing, and the "decent" that makes it sizzle. There's no better kind of belt notching than belt notching by the supremely smug and blase -- which is what our JC captures perfectly.

I had the opportunity to do just this in late October.  Me and buddy had a game set up at Crystal and were supposed to be back with the wives for a late lunch/happy hour.   Upon returning to the car after the 18th hole and making a phone call to the ladies (with no answer) we hightailed it up to Arcadia.  We were both a little concerned that we'd be locked out of the house after our unplanned 36 hole day so we chatted up the chef prior to heading out.  He managed to put together a massive box of crab legs and filets (which priced out equally to our 2 unaccompanied guest fees at Kingsley the day before) for us to pick up after the round.  We were in a bit of hot water until the girls took a look at our bounty.   It was a damn good day.

[Eric Smith]

Ben,

Brilliant thinking. You've given new meaning to the term "surf & turf". 

[Tom Bacsanyi]

Great looking course but why leave 3 feet of rough around the bunkers?

Apart from anything else it looks awful but the area around the pot bunker in several of the photos should be mowed at fairway height so the ball can run in the hazard....I see this on so many photographs on this site and it winds me up everytime.

Agree.  The rough cut around the inlaid sod wall bunkers is way too wide.  Plus, I think the combination of the sod walls and the more natural blowout bunkers makes it all look a bit busy, although I guess they do that it the UK as well.  Anyway, place looks awesome otherwise.

And for the record, I think that a morning round at NGLA, followed by whipping it over to Pine Valley via car service for a round, followed by a quick jaunt in the G-V over to a late afternoon 18 at Cypress before sunset makes for an acceptable day of golf.  But that's just me.

[Brent Carlson]

99.5% of the golfing public will adore this course.  GCAers - the .5% - will have people in both camps.  While it's not better architecturally than its local brethren, it certainly is more stunning visually.  I can think of few places I'd rather be than playing Arcadia Bluffs as the sun sets over Lake Michigan.  It's outstanding!  For those in southern climes get your butts up to northwest Michigan this summer.  Thank me later. 

[BCowan]

''Not every damn experience needs to be a zen golf, architectural education, etc.''

Agreed, and not every round needs to be a 5.5 hour death march... 

As long as the course is fun, I'm not particularly concerned with playing in 4 hours or less. 

So then you are part of the problem.  I'd love to see how you react to playing at a 5.5 hour pace.

[BCowan]

''Not every damn experience needs to be a zen golf, architectural education, etc.''

Agreed, and not every round needs to be a 5.5 hour death march... 

Hoping to play what looks to be a great Ma and Pa course(s) 20 miles east of CD this summer! 

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,57732.0.html

Ben we played on a pretty busy day, and it was less than 4 hours. I agree with Josh, it is worth a play if you are in the neighborhood. It certainly is a better course than some of the junk I play trying to find 1-2 cool holes at obscure old courses. I love trying the Ma and Pa courses, but honestly most of them are not very good. Arcadia is good, not great.

  Nigel,
 
    Consider yourself lucky, for I talked to a kid who interned there in the golf shop last summer at AB, he said avg round was 5.5-6 hours.  Told me some funny stories too.  Well when you have a Ma and Pa that is built on sand, minimal earth moving, allows walking, and prob has a faster pace of play, I'll stick with trying Champion Hills over AB.  Sleeping Bear Dunes Park is wonderful and I think i can bring my dog.  Avoid the Canoeing, it is a tourist trap in that area.

[BHoover]

''Not every damn experience needs to be a zen golf, architectural education, etc.''

Agreed, and not every round needs to be a 5.5 hour death march...  

As long as the course is fun, I'm not particularly concerned with playing in 4 hours or less.  

So then you are part of the problem.  I'd love to see how you react to playing at a 5.5 hour pace.

Huh? How am I part of the problem? You're making an a assumption solely because I am not particularly troubled with pace of play? I'm not saying that I play slow but if the overall pace is slow then so be it. I have played several 5+ hour rounds on local munis, which is why I never go back. But the difference is those courses aren't fun. I'd rather play quickly but I also don't want someone setting some arbitrary time limit (such as, you must play in under 4 hours). If I want to play quickly I'll play my home course. If I'm visiting Arcadia, I'll focus on the course more so than pace of play (and, gasp, I'll probably even take a cart)!

[BCowan]

''Not every damn experience needs to be a zen golf, architectural education, etc.''

Agreed, and not every round needs to be a 5.5 hour death march...  

As long as the course is fun, I'm not particularly concerned with playing in 4 hours or less.  

So then you are part of the problem.  I'd love to see how you react to playing at a 5.5 hour pace.

Huh? How am I part of the problem? I have played several 5+ hour rounds on local munis, which is why I never go back. But the difference is those courses aren't fun. I'd rather play quickly but I also don't want someone setting some arbitrary time limit (such as, you must play in under 4 hours). If I want to play quickly I'll play my home course. If I'm visiting Arcadia, I'll focus on the course more so than pace of play.

   I love playing some muni's and some of them are really fun, but the pace of play is an issue.  So 5.5 hours is okay for Arcadia but not for a good muni?  4 hours isn't arbitrary its golf custom in the US, and some could argue that it is too slow.  Too each is own.

[BHoover]

''Not every damn experience needs to be a zen golf, architectural education, etc.''

Agreed, and not every round needs to be a 5.5 hour death march...  

As long as the course is fun, I'm not particularly concerned with playing in 4 hours or less.  

So then you are part of the problem.  I'd love to see how you react to playing at a 5.5 hour pace.

Huh? How am I part of the problem? I have played several 5+ hour rounds on local munis, which is why I never go back. But the difference is those courses aren't fun. I'd rather play quickly but I also don't want someone setting some arbitrary time limit (such as, you must play in under 4 hours). If I want to play quickly I'll play my home course. If I'm visiting Arcadia, I'll focus on the course more so than pace of play.

   I love playing some muni's and some of them are really fun, but the pace of play is an issue.  So 5.5 hours is okay for Arcadia but not for a good muni?  4 hours isn't arbitrary its golf custom in the US, and some could argue that it is too slow.  Too each is own.

The key term is good muni. If it's good then I'll put up with slow play. If not, then I'm not going back (and it's not just munis).

[Tom Allen]

Put me in the "like" camp of the .5%.  The views, and the enjoyment I got out of playing there, were much better than I have accessible to me on a daily basis here in the Midwest.  so it was a pleasurable escape for me, and I would not hesitate to go back.

[Jason Thurman]

Nigel,
 
    Consider yourself lucky, for I talked to a kid who interned there in the golf shop last summer at AB, he said avg round was 5.5-6 hours.

It's not hard to see why he's interning at a golf shop instead of a financial office. He apparently doesn't understand basic math terms, like "average."

Brent nailed it. Arcadia's a good course, but a better place to spend a few hours on a summer afternoon. It's a bit saccharine, a bit noisy, and a bit too derivative of Pete Dye's course across the lake. But it's also a lot of fun, staggeringly beautiful, and about as good of a CCFAD experience as you'll find. That obviously doesn't turn GCAers on as much as it turns on most people. Some of the unwashed masses don't "get it" when they visit Bandon. Some of the hyperwashed GCAers don't "get it" when they visit Arcadia Bluffs. I'm thankful to be one of the few who has nailed my personal hygiene maintenance meld well enough to "get it" no matter where I tee it up.

If you can't appreciate a place like Arcadia Bluffs on a summer afternoon with the sun going down over the lake and a fish sandwich waiting at the clubhouse because "that sod wall bunker is incongruous with the blowout bunker 20 yards away," then you've completely lost touch with what matters. Arcadia is a great place to spend an afternoon hitting a white ball around and laughing with some friends. If you prefer minimalist golf courses over human friendship and natural wonders, then Arcadia is not for you.

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