[Chris_Hufnagel]

Nigel,
 
    Consider yourself lucky, for I talked to a kid who interned there in the golf shop last summer at AB, he said avg round was 5.5-6 hours.

It's not hard to see why he's interning at a golf shop instead of a financial office. He apparently doesn't understand basic math terms, like "average."

Brent nailed it. Arcadia's a good course, but a better place to spend a few hours on a summer afternoon. It's a bit saccharine, a bit noisy, and a bit too derivative of Pete Dye's course across the lake. But it's also a lot of fun, staggeringly beautiful, and about as good of a CCFAD experience as you'll find. That obviously doesn't turn GCAers on as much as it turns on most people. Some of the unwashed masses don't "get it" when they visit Bandon. Some of the hyperwashed GCAers don't "get it" when they visit Arcadia Bluffs. I'm thankful to be one of the few who has nailed my personal hygiene maintenance meld well enough to "get it" no matter where I tee it up.

If you can't appreciate a place like Arcadia Bluffs on a summer afternoon with the sun going down over the lake and a fish sandwich waiting at the clubhouse because "that sod wall bunker is incongruous with the blowout bunker 20 yards away," then you've completely lost touch with what matters. Arcadia is a great place to spend an afternoon hitting a white ball around and laughing with some friends. If you prefer minimalist golf courses over human friendship and natural wonders, then Arcadia is not for you.

I have been enjoying this thread, especially Mr. Lewis' unexpected staunch defense of Arcadia Bluffs and the above point-of-view by Mr. Thurman – which I think summarizes the Arcadia Bluffs experience very well.

I spent two beautiful, Chamber of Commerce-like Michigan summer days there last July.  The setting was gorgeous, the golf was fine, but slow, the conditions not as fast as Mr. Lewis contends, the food and accommodations excellent and all-in-all a nice way to spend a few days.  I was fortunate that is was part of a corporate event and I didn't have to pull my credit card out once – I only mention that as I doubt I would go back again on my own dollar.  For a corporate event with ~20 people, none of whom had much (any) interest in golf course architecture, proper maintenance meld, how much dirt was moved (or how much slid into Lake Michigan), bunker styles, walking or finishing a sub-four hour round – it probably doesn't get much better than what Arcadia Bluffs has on tap. 

As for me, not that the experience wasn't good or that I hated the golf course, but for most of us time and money are precious resources and for both, I would most likely choose to invest in other opportunities.  I would say the total "experience" of Arcadia Bluffs trumps the "golf course."  For some here, that is probably a non-starter at best and heresy at worst...

[Andrew Lewis]

I do need to play Belvedere and would like to do so with somebody who knows the course as well as you.  As for the sunset on your deck, I'll take the offer on the condition of adult supervision...

Cheers, Andrew

Does Lavin qualify?

Of course he does, but only relative to the two of us

[Andrew Lewis]

Andrew,

I played the course several times shortly after it opened and haven't been back since.  I'd have to give it another go to give you a detailed analysis of where it comes up short.  Here's a question-  If you spent a summer in Michigan, played 100 rounds of golf and had equal access to Lost Dunes, Kingsley, Crystal Downs, Greywalls, Belvedere and Arcadia Bluffs and cost was no object, how many rounds would you play at Arcadia?  I'd play zero.

Jud -

I think you intended to make this a northern MI exercise and thus meant Forest Dunes, and not Lost Dunes.  As you know, Greywalls also is a bit of a hike from the Frankfort-TC-Petoskey region, but fair enough.

Assuming that's the case and also assuming that pace of play is not an issue, I'd probably allocate my 100 rounds as follows:

Arcadia Bluffs -- 10
Crystal Downs -- 30
Forest Dunes -- 10
Greywalls -- 20
Kingsley -- 30

[Bill_McBride]

Nigel,
 
    Consider yourself lucky, for I talked to a kid who interned there in the golf shop last summer at AB, he said avg round was 5.5-6 hours.

It's not hard to see why he's interning at a golf shop instead of a financial office. He apparently doesn't understand basic math terms, like "average."

Brent nailed it. Arcadia's a good course, but a better place to spend a few hours on a summer afternoon. It's a bit saccharine, a bit noisy, and a bit too derivative of Pete Dye's course across the lake. But it's also a lot of fun, staggeringly beautiful, and about as good of a CCFAD experience as you'll find. That obviously doesn't turn GCAers on as much as it turns on most people. Some of the unwashed masses don't "get it" when they visit Bandon. Some of the hyperwashed GCAers don't "get it" when they visit Arcadia Bluffs. I'm thankful to be one of the few who has nailed my personal hygiene maintenance meld well enough to "get it" no matter where I tee it up.

If you can't appreciate a place like Arcadia Bluffs on a summer afternoon with the sun going down over the lake and a fish sandwich waiting at the clubhouse because "that sod wall bunker is incongruous with the blowout bunker 20 yards away," then you've completely lost touch with what matters. Arcadia is a great place to spend an afternoon hitting a white ball around and laughing with some friends. If you prefer minimalist golf courses over human friendship and natural wonders, then Arcadia is not for you.

Sorry but there's a bit of a disconnect between one's opinion of the architectural merits of a golf course and the enjoyment of the company and the sun going down over the lake.  You might feel better about playing a course with some major deficiencies in routing and designed features, but it doesn't improve your personal opinion of the course. 

[Steve Lang]

   Been going to the 40th parallel in MI since summer of 1982, i remember when Arcadia Bluffs opened around 2000 or so and i've been meaning to play there...  never seemed worth the $... maybe a twilight round this year so I can see what all the hub-bub is about! 

[Matt Bosela]

Dumb blonde or not, I'm heading to Northern Michigan in early July and I hope to grab a tee time at Arcadia during my stay.

I've enjoyed this thread.

[Chris DeToro]

Arcadia is not a bad course but certainly not my favorite in the area.  I played in fairly extreme conditions (windy and rainy) in early October and found the holes around the lakefront nearly impossible.  It was so windy, you couldn't take the club back let alone make some of the carries that are demanded.  I figure it's typically pretty windy around the lakefront, so I found the forced carries to be a bit much which soured my feelings towards the design

[Andrew Lewis]

Nigel,
 
    Consider yourself lucky, for I talked to a kid who interned there in the golf shop last summer at AB, he said avg round was 5.5-6 hours.

It's not hard to see why he's interning at a golf shop instead of a financial office. He apparently doesn't understand basic math terms, like "average."

Brent nailed it. Arcadia's a good course, but a better place to spend a few hours on a summer afternoon. It's a bit saccharine, a bit noisy, and a bit too derivative of Pete Dye's course across the lake. But it's also a lot of fun, staggeringly beautiful, and about as good of a CCFAD experience as you'll find. That obviously doesn't turn GCAers on as much as it turns on most people. Some of the unwashed masses don't "get it" when they visit Bandon. Some of the hyperwashed GCAers don't "get it" when they visit Arcadia Bluffs. I'm thankful to be one of the few who has nailed my personal hygiene maintenance meld well enough to "get it" no matter where I tee it up.

If you can't appreciate a place like Arcadia Bluffs on a summer afternoon with the sun going down over the lake and a fish sandwich waiting at the clubhouse because "that sod wall bunker is incongruous with the blowout bunker 20 yards away," then you've completely lost touch with what matters. Arcadia is a great place to spend an afternoon hitting a white ball around and laughing with some friends. If you prefer minimalist golf courses over human friendship and natural wonders, then Arcadia is not for you.

I have been enjoying this thread, especially Mr. Lewis' unexpected staunch defense of Arcadia Bluffs and the above point-of-view by Mr. Thurman – which I think summarizes the Arcadia Bluffs experience very well.

I spent two beautiful, Chamber of Commerce-like Michigan summer days there last July.  The setting was gorgeous, the golf was fine, but slow, the conditions not as fast as Mr. Lewis contends, the food and accommodations excellent and all-in-all a nice way to spend a few days.  I was fortunate that is was part of a corporate event and I didn't have to pull my credit card out once – I only mention that as I doubt I would go back again on my own dollar.  For a corporate event with ~20 people, none of whom had much (any) interest in golf course architecture, proper maintenance meld, how much dirt was moved (or how much slid into Lake Michigan), bunker styles, walking or finishing a sub-four hour round – it probably doesn't get much better than what Arcadia Bluffs has on tap. 

As for me, not that the experience wasn't good or that I hated the golf course, but for most of us time and money are precious resources and for both, I would most likely choose to invest in other opportunities.  I would say the total "experience" of Arcadia Bluffs trumps the "golf course."  For some here, that is probably a non-starter at best and heresy at worst...

Chris -

It's not that I disagree with your assessment of the experience vs the course or of value. It's that I disagree with bringing assessment of the experience or value into assessment of the course. Those are different things and, frankly, by that logic one could argue you should be a member at The Mines rather than Kingsley. 

Again, my point here is not to argue that Arcadia is "great" but rather that the course itself is (i) better than many here contend and (ii) worth seeing for oneself.

Let me try to illustrate this by posing another question:  Pinehurst no 2 versus Pine Needles vs Southern Pines -- which one is better?  And, more importantly, how do you define "better"?

Cheers, Andrew

[Steve Lang]

   Southern Pines more fun than Pine Needles, better cost value... Pinehurst #2... never played in over 22 years playing the Sand Hills area one week each spring... way too expensive, kinda like AB

[Bill_McBride]

  Southern Pines more fun than Pine Needles, better cost value... Pinehurst #2... never played in over 22 years playing the Sand Hills area one week each spring... way too expensive, kinda like AB

Where do you put Mid Pines?  I really want to see the new MP.

[Mike Schott]

The problem with Arcadia is that even for the public course player, northern Michigan offers so many quality courses. Arcadia is very expensive when you can play Belvedere, Forest Dunes, Black Forest, Dunmaglas and dozens of others. Not that they are all better courses, they are just better values.

[Richard Hetzel]

I really enjoyed Arcadia Bluffs for what it is; a manufactured, somewhat contrived and sculpted golf course with views that are simply incredible. We paid $100 to play 18 holes starting at 4:00 pm and the rangers pushed everyone to finish in no less than 4.5 hours. We were going up 18 as the sun was setting. Our morning round consisted of an early morning 18 on The Wolverine at Traverse, then a mid-day 18 at the NLE High Pointe GC with the evening 18 at Arcadia. I would definitely go back, but only at the $100 rate. It was a great day!

[Buck Wolter]

  Southern Pines more fun than Pine Needles, better cost value... Pinehurst #2... never played in over 22 years playing the Sand Hills area one week each spring... way too expensive, kinda like AB

Arcadia's rack rate is quite a bit less than Pine Needles $180 vs $235 (tomorrow it's still only $130), not a bargain but only $30/ hr with the 6 hour average round.

[Jud_T]

Buck,

That's the point.  In no way is Arcadia good value.  If the consensus is that the course Is say a 6 and not really top 100 material, justifying $180 because of the views from the deck or the conditioning is a disservice to those lurking hereabout.  For most folks those kind of prices should be reserved for really special courses IMO, which virtually no one here is saying Arcadia is.  So if paying an extra $90 for nice lake views gives you a semi-chub, have at it, but there's equally good golf to be had at less than half the price. 

P.S.  Jason, at 1/10th the price I'll take Spring Valley every time.  In fact I've got a time there tomorrow!

[John Percival]

While the merits of AB's greatness/Top 100 are tossed about and, of course, subject to personal preferences, all should agree that the experience is one of the game's more unique. By that measure, the price is a 'bargain'.

By way of comparison, look at restaurants or wine. You can get a perfectly good entree/bottle for $15-20. That price can be GREATLY increased on other options. GREATLY. Does that make the food/wine that much better? No. But the experience is so unique that it 'justifies' the cost (and time).

And, while no one likes long rounds, the views/hills offer an opportunity to golf and enjoy panoramas.
Played at Ballybunion last year in 5.3 hrs and took in many great views from atop dunes while waiting on shots. Special.

Side note: previously heard the wind reason for the short pins. If Turnberry, BB, Lahinch and others can survive the winds, why not AB?

[Buck Wolter]

Buck,

That's the point.  In no way is Arcadia good value.  If the consensus is that the course Is say a 6 and not really top 100 material, justifying $180 because of the views from the deck or the conditioning is a disservice to those lurking hereabout.  For most folks those kind of prices should be reserved for really special courses IMO, which virtually no one here is saying Arcadia is.  So if paying an extra $90 for nice lake views gives you a semi-chub, have at it, but there's equally good golf to be had at less than half the price. 

P.S.  Jason, at 1/10th the price I'll take Spring Valley every time.  In fact I've got a time there tomorrow!

Jud-
I think it is a good value when you compare it to other options --The Harvester in Iowa is ~80 on th eGolfweek modern and gets $129 in season -- I'd pay the extra $50 for Arcadia for the chance of semi-wood.

I think its better than a 6 and if you're talking Midwest Publics there aren't many/any better. It's peer group isn't Belvedre or the Mines, it's Bandon, Streamsong, Whistling Straits, etc. Plop the course down 10 miles inland and I think it's still very good.

Let's find some time this summer to tee it up on our favorite N Michigan track.

Buck

[Jud_T]

Done.  I suppose it's better value than Whistling Straights, but that's like saying Five Guys is better than McDonalds, i.e. faint praise IMO.  I don't think it holds up well against Old Mac, Pac Dunes or Bandon Trails, in terms of golf or value and it's a ripoff when stacked up against Lawsonia.  They should be very afraid of Sand Valley...

[Steve Lang]

  Southern Pines more fun than Pine Needles, better cost value... Pinehurst #2... never played in over 22 years playing the Sand Hills area one week each spring... way too expensive, kinda like AB

Where do you put Mid Pines?  I really want to see the new MP.

Hey Bill,

Our group liked playing Mid Pines very much, but we'd always start the week's 2-a-day rounds every year at Southern Pines, and sneak in an additional 9 on the old loop down the street from the swimming pool...    and Mid Pines seemed crowded but the starter would work us in for the second 18

p.s. there were years when we played a different course morning and afternoon for the week..  after a while the courses blur together a bit due to the topography

p.s.s.  i guess I am more interested in comparing AB to Bay Harbor in Petosky than Bandon or perhaps Chambers Bay, where the view sort of becomes the wall paper.. nice but one doesn't dwell on it..  if i want to enjoy the dunes, I'll go up the coast to Sleeping Bear Dunes
http://www.sleepingbeardunes.com

[BCowan]

Buck,

   I'd rather drive to Iowa and play the Harvester.  You are putting AB in the same sentence as Bandon and Streamsong  .  Playing Pilgrims run on Sunday.  No love for Belvedere?  When you made the comment at Kingsley on how you like that Kingsley didn't have any water on it, I thought we had a connection.  Is it AB's sandy soil and faux dunes that gets your fancy?  You can get a great fish sandwich anywhere in Michigan.  

P.S.-  As It pertains to Pine Needles, you just have to know a member and it's half that price.  When they added memberships (Dirt cheap) they doubled unaccompanied guest fee (why not)!  I'd pay $150 to play Mid Pines before I'd pay $40 to play AB!  

P.S.S-  I need a rematch

Jud,

   5 guys is real food.  That is like saying the worst dog track is as good as Kingsley.

[Jud_T]

Five Guys is even more overrated than AB.

[BCowan]

 

[Josh Tarble]

Five Guys is even more overrated than AB.

Totally agree...5 Guys is the Rich Harvest of hamburger places.

[Jason Thurman]

I think it is a good value when you compare it to other options --The Harvester in Iowa is ~80 on th eGolfweek modern and gets $129 in season -- I'd pay the extra $50 for Arcadia for the chance of semi-wood.

Now you're just trolling me. It's not in the same league as The Harvester. But I agree with the rest of what you said.

Jud mentioned Lawsonia. A huge part of Lawsonia's "affordable" reputation comes from their exceptional twilight rates. It's often cited as a $30 course when in fact someone showing up on a Saturday morning is paying $90. It's still a pretty good architectural value at that the weekend rack rate, but I would imagine a lot of people walk away and wonder what the big deal is after dropping $100 for a course in good-but-not-pristine condition and two hot dogs.

I've never met anyone who played Arcadia and didn't feel like they got their money's worth, aside from a few GCA snobs and one guy I know who hates any course that doesn't have lots of trees (you should hear what he thought of Lawsonia).

Rack-rate tee times at Arcadia Bluffs are for suckers (and, in most cases, corporate events). The ideal time to play is early twilight when you can finish with the sun going down over the lake and then get a drink and watch the last few groups 3-putt the 18th green, and it's $110 in peak season then. The peak rates in the fall, which in the upper Midwest is the best season in the history of climatology, are $75-100. An afternoon round at Arcadia Bluffs for $110 is a pretty nice value. Great service, excellent course conditions, unbelievable views, lots of fun shots, and pretty good and unique architecture if you're into that sort of thing. Complaining about the peak season greens fee at Arcadia is like complaining that your attempt to attack a front pin on #2 at Kingsley failed - the fault was on you for taking such a sucker play in the first place when you're offered such a big bailout once you get past 3:00 (see what I did there?).

[Jason Thurman]

Five Guys is even more overrated than AB.

Totally agree...5 Guys is the Rich Harvest of hamburger places.

[Buck Wolter]

Buck,

   I'd rather drive to Iowa and play the Harvester.  You are putting AB in the same sentence as Bandon and Streamsong  .  Playing Pilgrims run on Sunday.  No love for Belvedere?  When you made the comment at Kingsley on how you like that Kingsley didn't have any water on it, I thought we had a connection.  Is it AB's sandy soil and faux dunes that gets your fancy?  You can get a great fish sandwich anywhere in Michigan.  

P.S.-  As It pertains to Pine Needles, you just have to know a member and it's half that price.  When they added memberships (Dirt cheap) they doubled unaccompanied guest fee (why not)!  I'd pay $150 to play Mid Pines before I'd pay $40 to play AB!  

P.S.S-  I need a rematch

Jud,

   5 guys is real food.  That is like saying the worst dog track is as good as Kingsley.

I feel like I'm defending an ex-girlfriend -- 'no seriously, she's not that crazy'.

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