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Scott_Burroughs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: #17/18 at Pasa--did the good Dr. lose count ag
« Reply #25 on: March 11, 2002, 11:44:16 AM »
Tom M,
    Are you talking about the original layout (17=330 yards)?  Because now, #7 is the only one of that length (346) versus #17 is at 366 now.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tom MacWood (Guest)

Re: #17/18 at Pasa--did the good Dr. lose count ag
« Reply #26 on: March 11, 2002, 12:26:00 PM »
Rich
Yes I do think MacKenzie was designing for hacks like himself as well as good players. Yes he was aware of the 8th, he redsigned the hole. But the 8th is not an awkward layup,  there is a relatively safe alternative to the left. And likewise the 16th has a staight foward layup. Your propose 18 would be a backward version of the par-5 10th - probably to an optimal arrangement. And other than the glut of par-5s it would create, he may have wanted to maximize the number of holes effected by the dramatic barranca. He may have thought two holes are better than one + your great 13.5 playing from yard to yard.

Scott
Yes the 17th was originally 330 yards and #7 was a bit longer.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Richard_Goodale

Re: #17/18 at Pasa--did the good Dr. lose count ag
« Reply #27 on: March 11, 2002, 01:01:01 PM »
Tom M

With all due respect, if you really think that the layups to the left of 8 PB and 16 CP (I am ASSUMING that you do not contemplate laying up on the beach to the right!) are "not awkward" you must play a very, very different sort of game than we do in California, or Scotland, or New England or Florida.  Were you, perhaps, that 40-ish person that Tim Weiman encountered on his first day of golf of the year on that public course in Columbus?

Just wondering.......
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tom MacWood (Guest)

Re: #17/18 at Pasa--did the good Dr. lose count ag
« Reply #28 on: March 11, 2002, 01:31:08 PM »
Rich
There are layups and there are layups. The layup on the 16th is two a relatively flat area with probably a 5 iron  with plenty of room for error setting up a wedge. The layup on the 8th is more awkward and little more harrowing to a narrower target, but the ground is sloping toward you and acts as a backstop, worse case sceneria - assuming you hit it solid - is long into the rough setting up another short approach.

 I picture the proposed 18th differently. First of all there would no choice for most golfers after their drive (at least with 16 you can place your ball on a tee and with a good drive at 8 you have a medium iron downhill approach not out of the realm of possiblity of most), they would then be forced to hit a very short iron, with long being the worst mistake (either rolling into the barrance or leaving an awkward downhill lie approach) causing most to err on the shortish side setting up a very difficult long approach for the average Joe.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Richard_Goodale

Re: #17/18 at Pasa--did the good Dr. lose count ag
« Reply #29 on: March 11, 2002, 02:04:53 PM »
Tom

You are grasping at straws in your "arguments", but, what the hey, if you have nothing better to do.....?!?!?  Have you ever physically been at either CP or Pasa?  Played or seen played any of the shots you write about?  Do you really think that there is a person on this planet who would voluntarily play the "5-iron to the left on 16 CP?"  If so, he or she is either unable or unwilling to pass on his or her DNA into the human gene pool, IMHO, of course..........
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

JakaB

Re: #17/18 at Pasa--did the good Dr. lose count ag
« Reply #30 on: March 11, 2002, 02:25:13 PM »
Hey pajo...have a little McStrategy with your McWood meal.  With the price of balls today...shooting over that ocean could be an expensive proposition.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tom MacWood (Guest)

Re: #17/18 at Pasa--did the good Dr. lose count ag
« Reply #31 on: March 11, 2002, 02:57:56 PM »
Rich
Its not an arguement. Its only my opinion - an opinion based on a hypothetical no less. If you take exception to my opinion why not explain where I've come up short. Neither one of us has ever designed a golf course, so its difficult to try to put oursleves in the mind of the good Doctor in 1928. And yes I've physically been to both and played both. Do I have the facts wrong on CPC and PB, based on your experience?

And by the way my 94 year old father played to the left at #16. And I'm very proud to say he has passsed along some very good genes - a Phd from Columbia, a professor at Cal-Berk. and OSU, and worked on the Manhattan project -  I'll admit my brothers and sisters may have gotten a few more of the good ones than myself, but his DNA should not be questioned. And by the way he could still kick your little ass.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Richard_Goodale

Re: #17/18 at Pasa--did the good Dr. lose count ag
« Reply #32 on: March 11, 2002, 03:38:29 PM »
Tom MacW

I am very impressed that your Dad was still playing golf and passing on his DNA at age 94.  I should be so lucky.  If he is still with us I would love to give him a game, and regardless of his predilections I'm sure he could kick my not-so-little ass with very little difficulty.  I don't protect it--particularly from 94-year old men.  Sorry if I rubbed you the wrong way on this thread, but I'm getting used to it.  Just say a few "Hail Alister"'s and rub your lacy-bunker beads for me and I'm sure both of our souls will be safe, at least for another day.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tom MacWood (Guest)

Re: #17/18 at Pasa--did the good Dr. lose count ag
« Reply #33 on: March 11, 2002, 04:11:45 PM »
Richard
He is still with us - thank God. And he stopped passing on his DNA with my little sister before his 60th birthday -- that I'm aware of. You didn't rub me the wrong way, I just wanted to correct any misconception you may have had about playing the 16th. Hell he could probably kick my ass too.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

cardyin2

Re: #17/18 at Pasa--did the good Dr. lose count ag
« Reply #34 on: March 11, 2002, 04:31:23 PM »
I played Pasatiempo about ten days ago.  It was the second time I have played it--the last time some 11 years ago.   The course continues to astound me.  If an architect today laid out nine north-south holes and routed all four par 4s straight south and routed all three par 3s and both par 5s straight north, he would be laughed out of town.  The routing seems to follow the original routing in the 1929-1931 photos in the clubhouse, so I assume it hasn't changed much. However, it seems to work at Pasatiempo because the individual holes are quite different.  
It seemed to me that No. 10 had changed.  I recall a giant tree on the right side of the fairway and not much bunkering at the green.  The tree is gone, and the green now is protected by seven  left-side bunkers which cover all but the right-most corner of the green (although the approach is banked to funnel a shot onto the green).  No. 11 remains a great hole; No. 12 is just fair; No. 13 is okay; No. 14 is one of the great par 4s in America and No. 15 reminds me of No. 7 at Pebble Beach--a really neat short-iron challenge that just fits in the land; No. 16 is, in my opinion, one of the most overrated par 4s in America--a flagstick atop a crowned, blind fairway and a green unlike any other on the course and virtually impossible to putt (although I must be wrong because I see architects trying to duplicate it, like Jay Morrish at Troon North (No. 10) and Mike Strantz at Royal New Kent, among others); No. 17 is mediocre--a group of pros behind us were pitchig in from abut 70-80 yards, and No. 18 is excellent if one doesn't have a problem with par 3 closers.  I recall Tom Fazio once stating that many of the old-time classic courses usually had about six great holes, about six good holes and about six just-fair holes.  Pasatiempo, I think, fits into that mold.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Dan King

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: #17/18 at Pasa--did the good Dr. lose count ag
« Reply #35 on: March 11, 2002, 06:53:16 PM »
Rich,

I haven't seen anything from Mackenzie saying he considered your idea for 17 and 18. I'd like to spend some time at Pasatiempo looking at what they have one of these days.

But you assume Mackenzie saw a problem with 17 and 18. I could imagine him having no problem with those holes the way they are. You think they aren't good enough, but others of us like them the way they are and don't see your idea as an improvement.

cardyin writes:
I recall Tom Fazio once stating that many of the old-time classic courses usually had about six great holes, about six good holes and about six just-fair holes.  

Apparently Mr. Fazio says a lot of stupid things.

Fazio, and many new developers have no idea how to make a course flow. They build collections of golf holes, while the Golden Age Architects knew how to build golf courses.

Pasatiempo, I think, fits into that mold.

You stick to Fazio's latest and greatest I'll play Pasatiempo, Cypress Point and Valley Club of Montecito.
Quote
"Progress, far from consisting of change, depends on retentiveness. Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."
 --George Santayana (The Life of Reason)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Richard_Goodale

Re: #17/18 at Pasa--did the good Dr. lose count ag
« Reply #36 on: March 11, 2002, 09:03:56 PM »
Dan K1

Don't waste your time looking at the archives, look at the land.  I think there's a great golf hole out there on 17/18 that the good Doctor missed.  That's all I'm speculating.  I'm assuming nothing.

Cardyin2

Good honest analysis.  Fazio's 6/6/6 (sign of the beast!) point is a bit extreme, but not far off reality vis a vis Pasa.  Not far off almost any course in the world, come to think of it.

Tom MacW

Great to hear your Dad is still with us.  However, if he raised you, he will have to give me strokes when we play--he's gotta be a relentless grinder.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tom MacWood (Guest)

Re: #17/18 at Pasa--did the good Dr. lose count ag
« Reply #37 on: March 12, 2002, 05:27:53 AM »
Crdyin2
I don't recall any architects past or present being laughed out of town - who has been criticized for a similar routing?

Based on your knowledge of the original 18 at Pasatiempo do you think it too was a 6/6/6 job?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

cardyin2

Re: #17/18 at Pasa--did the good Dr. lose count ag
« Reply #38 on: March 12, 2002, 09:18:00 AM »
Obviously, "being laughed out of town" is figurative.
I don't know of any other architect being criticized for a routing like the front nine at Pasatiempo because I don't recall ever having played a course, or heard of a course, with that same nine-hole routing. Unless someone knows something to the contrary, I assume it is unique and, I further assume, subject to fair comment and criticism. Finally, even I was not around when the original 18 opened at Pasatiempo, so I can't comment.  I don't want to be misunderstood.  I loved playing Pasatiempo. the same as I loved playing Cypress Point and the Valley Club at Monteceto,and I also have loved playing many of Fazio's courses as well.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tom MacWood (Guest)

Re: #17/18 at Pasa--did the good Dr. lose count ag
« Reply #39 on: March 12, 2002, 10:46:31 AM »
Cardyin2
I thought maybe you had a course or an architect in mind that had been criticized for a similar routing. What about the front nine at Merion? The Cascades, Cypress Point, Riviera, Winged Foot-W, County Down, Inverness and Eastward Ho! all have routings where the majority of the 18 holes are routed in the same opposing directions and I'm sure there are others. Casa de Campo and Whistling Straits have very similar routings and holes that run in bascically two directions with a couple of exceptions. What about the Ocean course?

What does Tom Fazio have to do with Pasatiempo or its routing?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

cardyin2

Re: #17/18 at Pasa--did the good Dr. lose count ag
« Reply #40 on: March 14, 2002, 12:06:41 AM »
All I was trying to say was that I did not know that enjoying a Mackenzie course and enjoying a Fazio course is mutually exclusive.  I think it is possble to find something to like about almost any golf course, and it's also possible to find something not to like about almost any golf course.  For example, I played Fazio's Shady Canyon last  week.  There were some things I liked and some things I didn't like about it. The same with Pasatiempo.  I liked much more about Shady Canyon than I didn't like; the same with Pasatiempo.  
There may be some contributors to these discussions who can identify an indvidual nine holes in which the four par 4s all are routed in one direction and in which three par 3s and two par 5s are routed in the opposite direction, as with the front nine at Pasatiempo.  I have played most of the courses referred to, and I don't recall any individual nine holes on any of them which fit this description.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike Kane

( Re: #17/18 at Pasa--did the good Dr. lose count
« Reply #41 on: March 14, 2002, 01:16:29 AM »
Is the green on 17 the original green location?  It seems to me that the first time I played there that someone said that the original green was short of the current location.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tom MacWood (Guest)

Re: #17/18 at Pasa--did the good Dr. lose count ag
« Reply #42 on: March 14, 2002, 03:47:51 AM »
Caryin2
It seems like an odd spot to bring up and defend Fazio. And your tactic of criticizing MacKenzie in an attempt to defend Fazio is a little bizarrre and very Fazio-Kincadeesque, especially when your criticism was based on your mistaken claim that no one ever routed a nine like whats found at Pasatiempo. Do you think it is possible to elevate the reputation of Fazio by pointing out flaws in past greats work (I'll be the first to admit they all had flaws)?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »