Kinloch + Ballyhack = ????

[Ronald Montesano]

Within two weeks time, assuming I live, I'll have played both.  Los dos are Lester George courses, located in Virginia, but I'm guessing that's where the similarity ends.  What do we have in store for us?  How are they similar?  How do they differ?

[TEPaul]

I've only been to Ballyhack and just shortly before it opened. But I will tell you this, Ronald----Ballyhack is one of those very rare courses that is going to define you as a golf architecture analyst!

And if you happen to have the opportunity to speak to Lester or some of his guys like his engineer Glenn Muckly, by all means do it.

Lester is a real trip. I swear if this war in Afganistan bogs down as it looks like it will and Obama wants to resolve the whole thing the best way he could do it would be to send Lester over there. The bigger the problem the more Lester likes it.

[Tim Gavrich]

You are a lucky guy indeed, Mr. Montesano.  I've not played either, but I've seen Ballyhack in person and I've seen plenty of pictures of Kinloch.  Kinloch is a prim parkland course while Ballyhack is wide-open and as rugged as can be.  One might say Ballyhack is the Sand Hills to Kinloch's Augusta National, although that is surely an oversimplification.  Ballyhack has some of the coolest-looking greens I have ever seen and I have heard Kinloch has a bunch of great risk-reward holes with alternate landing areas and such.  You're in for two treats.

[Wade Whitehead]

Ronald:

Things In Common:
1. A peek at Lester George's genius and versatility,
2. First class service and attention, courtesy of Phil Owenby, Jonathan Ireland, and two excellent staffs,
3. Expert use of Virginia land, which can vary as much as any other state's, and
4. Wonderfully suited and appointed on-site overnight accommodations.

Unique To Kinloch:
1. Perhaps the finest parkland layout you'll ever lay eyes on,
2. Immaculate, as in literally second to none, conditioning,
3. One of the world's top five practice/learning areas,
4. World class caddies who know exactly what to say, and
5. The penultimate (in my mind) "shot value" golf course.

Unique To Ballyhack:
1. Fast and firm conditions (especially right now),
2. Massive and, at times, unbelievable scale, particularly in, on, and around bunkers and greens,
3. Unbelievably creative routing (especially on the back nine) that suits wonderfully variant wind conditions,
4. The most Irish hole (#5) that you may ever see west of the pond, and
5. The coolest handmade firepits on the planet, if you're staying on site.

I'm just five miles from Ballyhack and am well familiar with Richmond.  If you need recommendations or have time for a meal, send me a message.

WW

[Wade Whitehead]

Ron:

One suggestion: Billy Bobbitt, Superintendent at Ballyhack, worked at Kinloch (as Super) before.  It might be worth it to track him down for a conversation and analysis of the two places from his unique perspective.

WW

[Tommy Williamsen]

I played Ballyhack a month ago and have played Kinloch a half dozen times.  They are on very different terrain.  Kinloch is on rolling parkland land and is empeccibly maintained.  Ballyhack is on more dramatic terrain, with vast expanses of sandy waste areas, large undulating greens, but its condition is a little spotty.  That said, there are some similarities.  Both have a split fairway par five that offers a short way to get home in two.  Both have a great coollection of par threes and both have a couple split fairway par fours.  Ballyhack is more difficult.  Both are just wonderful.  Kinloch became an instant sensation.  I think that it will take a little longer for the "masses" to disover Ballyhack.

[Frank M]

Within two weeks time, assuming I live, I'll have played both.  Los dos are Lester George courses, located in Virginia, but I'm guessing that's where the similarity ends.  What do we have in store for us?  How are they similar?  How do they differ?

When you say "assuming you live" you don't mean it as you are sick do you?

Hopefully, it's just a figure of speech. 

[TEPaul]

"One might say Ballyhack is the Sand Hills to Kinloch's Augusta National, although that is surely an oversimplification."


Hmmm!?

One of the one's whose opinion on architecture I trust the most, Adam Messix, told me when he first saw Ballyhack it reminded him of a modern day NGLA! I see what he means and that sounds like a much better analogy to me than to Sand Hills which is certainly one of the most unusual golf courses and settings I've ever seen.

Ronald, when you see Ballyhack, I want you to try to pay very special attention, if you can, to where and particularly how you think Lester moved earth down there and where he maybe didn't. That in and of itself is one of the most fascinating things about that golf course and trying to analyze it, particularly when you have Lester there to explain it all that way and otherwise in detail. Pay special attention to the mid-body of the 18th hole and then I'm gonna test you!

I'd also like you to pay special attention to casting your eyes just off-site and you may get a better idea of just how rugged and complex that ground is naturally out there.

[Wade Whitehead]

Ronald, when you see Ballyhack, I want you to try to pay very special attention, if you can, to where and particularly how you think Lester moved earth down there and where he maybe didn't. That in and of itself is one of the most fascinating things about that golf course and trying to analyze it, particularly when you have Lester there to explain it all that way and otherwise in detail.

In the same conversation, explore #11.

WW

[Tim Gavrich]

"One might say Ballyhack is the Sand Hills to Kinloch's Augusta National, although that is surely an oversimplification."


Hmmm!?

One of the one's whose opinion on architecture I trust the most, Adam Messix, told me when he first saw Ballyhack it reminded him of a modern day NGLA! I see what he means and that sounds like a much better analogy to me than to Sand Hills which is certainly one of the most unusual golf courses and settings I've ever seen.

TEPaul--

Fair enough.  I haven't seen Sand Hills or NGLA, so I defer to anyone else about the comparison.  The rugged look of the bunkers at Ballyhack just reminded me of the bunkers at Sand Hills I've seen in pictures.

[TEPaul]

Has anyone ever noticed or even ever thought of the fact that the golf courses of many architects actually reflect their personalities in many ways?  

One reason I say that is one great interest I've had for many many years (many decades) is in what I call the art and science and study of physiognomy. I learned that basically in the bars of New York when I was young through this sort of Svengali like Wall Street stock broker me and many of my friends used to know and use. He was a genius that way. We could bring that guy into some bar we all hung out at and knew everyone and point someone out we knew and ask him to tell us about them. He was virtually never wrong. I think he plied his business that way.

I never much used it myself or not if asked but one time down in Florida at a club my father belonged to I sat at the first tee with the pro who was sending the tournament out and told him about it and he said; "Show me." He knew who everyone was and I didn't know most of them. I'd look at their physiognomy, watch their practice swings, their tempo or whatever and with each group I'd tell that pro what I thought each person and his personality was like.

About halfway through that morning wave of golfers in that tournament that pro thought I was some kind of clairvoyant!  

Ronald, WW and Tim, in my opinion, in many ways Ballyhack really reflects Lester's personality (via his physiognomy)! Do any of you know him?

[Kevin Lynch]

Within two weeks time, assuming I live, I'll have played both.  Los dos are Lester George courses, located in Virginia, but I'm guessing that's where the similarity ends.  What do we have in store for us?  How are they similar?  How do they differ?

I feel like a bit of an a** but, when you say "assuming you live" you don't mean it as you are sick...your just saying it as a figure of speech right?

Hopefully it's just a figure of speech. 

Frank - Not to worry, Ron is perfectly healthy. 

Of course, it may be a passive-aggressive slap at me, since he's concerned about my driving abilities and telling me not to flip the car en-route.

I am eagerly anticipating this trip, but trying to keep my exposure to information on the courses somewhat limited (as much as possible).  I like to be surprised by what I see, and worry that preconceptions may temper the experience.  Of course, as soon as I finish, I will be scouring this site and the rest of the Internet to compare my perceptions with everyone else.

[TEPaul]

"Of course, it may be a passive-aggressive slap at me, since he's concerned about my driving abilities and telling me not to flip the car"


In that case I suggest you and Ronald refrain from using the car on the par 4s and 5s at Kinlock and Ballyhack and use some other club from those tees.

[Ronald Montesano]

By the way, for those who want to read more from/learn more about Kevin Lynch, here's a link to his ramblings:  http://buff-golf.com/scramble.htm

[JMEvensky]

I've played Kinloch.Irrespective of the golf course,which is a lot of fun to play,just enjoy the club itself.

You'd be hard pressed to design a better golf club.All the details are right.What you want is there--what you don't,isn't.It's easy to tell that the guys behind it truly understand golf.