Ho hum greens...Great course

[Ben Sims]

The thread on great green complexes and later on Tom Doak's post in that thread got me to thinking.  Are there any great courses with just average green complexes?  I'm not talking abut conditioning or speed.  I am talking about variety in size and shape, contour and tilt, subtlety and grandeur. 

Are there any courses that you have played that are considered great, and come away thinking that the greens were nothing special?

[Dan Herrmann]

Did RTJ ever build special greens?  Ben, that could be your answer - a great RTJ course with average greens.

[Sean Leary]

I only played it twice, but County Down's greens did not strike me as great...

[JNC Lyon]

Did RTJ ever build special greens?  Ben, that could be your answer - a great RTJ course with average greens.

The greens at Colgate's Seven Oaks are special.  I think they are the best part of the golf course.

I don't think a course can be great without great greens.  Period.

[Anthony Fowler]

Okay, I'm going to get a lot of flack for this, but here goes:

Bethpage Black, Torrey Pines South, and Pinehurst No. 2

For Bethpage and Torrey: both courses are awesome from tee-to-green.  We could argue about whether they could use a good short par 4, but I love both courses tee-to-green.  The putting surfaces, however, are fairly uninteresting to putt on.  Most putts are very flat with the exception of a few "dramatic" ridges.

As for No. 2: The entire green complexes and and green surrounds are a blast, but the actual green surfaces (the parts that will hold a golf ball) are fairly flat.  You rarely see exciting putts once you are on the smallish pinnable parts of the greens.

I know others will take issue with these choices  (Is Torrey really a great course? How can you call Pinehurst greens ho hum?), and I will be happy to further defend these choices

[Ben Sims]

I only played it twice, but County Down's greens did not strike me as great...

Sean,

Interesting that you would take it to the GB&I courses.  But come to think of it, other than a few standouts such as St. Andrews and North Berwick and a couple others, how many courses in the Isles get discussed solely for their green complexes? 

[Bill_McBride]

I only played it twice, but County Down's greens did not strike me as great...

Did you doze off on #7?   

[Wade Schueneman]

RCD also jumped into my head when I saw this topic, because they do not have much in the way of big contours.  However, my experience has been that they play quick and true with some very subtle breaks, and so they have not left me disappointed.  At the very least they are very well situated (as I believe Ran points out in his profile).  That being said, I do wish that the greatest front nine in the world had a great set of greens.

[David_Tepper]

It is probably not fair to include the links courses of GB&I in this discussion. Most greens on links courses tend to be fairly flat, given their exposure to the wind.   

[Ed Oden]

Did RTJ ever build special greens?  Ben, that could be your answer - a great RTJ course with average greens.

Dan, I hope you will have an opporunity to play at Peachtree some day.  If you do, I am confident that you will agree that RTJ was at least capable of creating a fantastic set of greens.

The great course that immediately springs to mind for me as having average greens is Pebble Beach.  While unquestionably unique due to their incredibly small size, for the most part, I do not believe Pebble's greens are particularly interesting once you manage to find the putting surfaces.  It seems to me that most courses with great greens have relatively large putting surfaces in order to accommodate interesting contours.  That just isn't the case at Pebble.  Nevertheless, I lean toward the group that still thinks Pebble is among the best courses in the world.

Ed

[Sean Leary]

I only played it twice, but County Down's greens did not strike me as great...

Did you doze off on #7?   

#7 is the one hole that I thought about when hesitating about posting that, Bill. My favorite short par 3 in golf. That green is excellent, I agree.

[Scott Warren]

Interesting that you would take it to the GB&I courses.  But come to think of it, other than a few standouts such as St. Andrews and North Berwick and a couple others, how many courses in the Isles get discussed solely for their green complexes? 

Perhaps not solely (what great course gets discussed solely for one feature?), but discussion and celebration of Dornoch, Deal, Sandwich, Woking, Huntercombe and Silloth's green complexes makes up a huge amount of the discussion about those courses and what makes them great.

[Sean Leary]

It is probably not fair to include the links courses of GB&I in this discussion. Most greens on links courses tend to be fairly flat, given their exposure to the wind.   

I agree, but what about the ones over there that aren't? And what about the Bandon courses?

[Tyler Kearns]

Royal Adelaide

The golf course did not live up to the hype, and when trying to figure out why, all I could really think of was that the greens were a little on the dull side. There are some excellent green sites that were taken advantage of, No. 3, 11 and 14 spring to mind, however, the contouring of the greens left me wondering about all the accolades the course receives. And ultimately, I think that keeps Royal Adelaide from being a great course, as ho hum greens and great course are not mutually inclusive terms.

TK

[Sean_A]

For starters, I don't think there are all that many courses with great sets of greens.  IMO people talk about great because of internal contours, but the orientation of the greens and how they relate to the problems nearby is at least important as contours.  There are countless great courses with just good sets of greens, but off the top of my head the only course I would call great with an average set of greens is Woodhall Spa. 

On the flipside there are a lot of candidates for greatness if the greens were better.  Off the top of my head I would say New Zealand, Stoneham & Delamere Forest.

Ciao

[Jim Nugent]

How are the greens at CPC?  Seem to recall Doak did not include it among his "great greens" courses. 

[Ally Mcintosh]

IMO people talk about great because of internal contours, but the orientation of the greens and how they relate to the problems nearby is at least important as contours.

Well said Sean. I'd add in the contours tying from the green in to the surrounds - the shoulders, the hollows etc... But often to 30 yards out, not just the 5 yards in close proximity.

Seeing as RCD has been mentioned, what about the 13th green? The feed in to the right of that green is excellent and goes a long way to making that hole. RCD has impeccable maintenance for green surrounds, run-ups and fall-offs and I think that has to be taken in to account when considering the greens - not just the designated putting area (which is almost indistinguishable at RCD)

[Ronald Montesano]

Dan's old stomping grounds, the original Sheridan Park Golf Course, had a wonderful layout with fairly uninspired greens, courtesy of William Harries.  For a guy who belonged to a Travis classic (Cherry Hill in Ridgeway, Ontario), Travies built some pretty bland putting surfaces.

Crag Burn (yes, that old saw) has such a diverse package of greens that it falls in with Seven Oaks as a total RTJ Sr. package.  In contrast, his work at Glen Oak (formerly Ransom Oaks Country Club) in Amherst, NY, is a typical Florida routing with big, sweeping breaks, but nothing really subtle.  Lots of tilt, little footwork.

It's really hard to muck up greens.  Unless you go for the inverted bowl on every hole (we have a few of those courses in WNY) or you shave them flat on purpose, the unpredictable nature of settling (confirmation please, architects?) will leave some intricacies.  I can't imagine that any architect throughout history would have ignored greens completely, after routing a fine track.  I usually find ho-hum greens on a farmers or mom/pop course that exists as a money-maker.

[Ally Mcintosh]

It's really hard to muck up greens.

Surely there is some mistake?

I wouldn't rely on settling to provide interesting greens, Ronald... Especially when building to USGA recommendations and not unless you have a generation or two to hang around and wait...

[Chris Buie]

Regarding #2, I can't really disagree with Anthony.  C/C are not going to modify the greens during this restoration project.  I do hope that after the 2014 U.S. Open they will restore the greens and surrounding areas as well.  The way they were set up in the late 30's was very interesting.  The greens had quite a bit of both sublime and dramatic internal contouring.  It would be great to see the greens returned to the more individualized character they once had. 
Dunlop White did an excellent job of showing how the greens have changed over the years on his website.
http://www.dunlopwhite.com/www.dunlopwhite.com/Green_Evolution_Report.html

Here are some then/now comparisons - 2nd Green


4th Green


And one more photo to illustrate the once and (hopefully) future drama.

[Steve Kline]

Okay, I'm going to get a lot of flack for this, but here goes:

Bethpage Black, Torrey Pines South, and Pinehurst No. 2

For Bethpage and Torrey: both courses are awesome from tee-to-green.  We could argue about whether they could use a good short par 4, but I love both courses tee-to-green.  The putting surfaces, however, are fairly uninteresting to putt on.  Most putts are very flat with the exception of a few "dramatic" ridges.

As for No. 2: The entire green complexes and and green surrounds are a blast, but the actual green surfaces (the parts that will hold a golf ball) are fairly flat.  You rarely see exciting putts once you are on the smallish pinnable parts of the greens.

I know others will take issue with these choices  (Is Torrey really a great course? How can you call Pinehurst greens ho hum?), and I will be happy to further defend these choices

In regards to #2:

The 2nd has a huge know that feeds into the front right of the green.

The 3rd has lots of movement that I see resort guests continually misread. It is a truly great green.

The 5th has a spine that runs the length of the green angling from front right to back left. It is quite easy to misjudge the brek on this hole.

The 6th has know in the middle right that greatly influences puts and tee shots bailed to the right.

The 7th has good internal movement with an upper right tier.

The 8th has a lower right bowl that is easy to play too but hitting anything to the upper back portion is scary.

The lower right esction on the 9th has lots of breaking putts.

The 11th is real fooler. Very few people can read the subtle breaks correctly.

The 14th has some nice interal slopes.

The 18th has a hollow in the middel right with a steep slope up to the back right.

Sounds like maybe you haven't played the course enough or with the greens at the right speed. Sure, the greens don't have the movement of Bally neal but they aren't flat. The greens at TOC have lots of flat areas but are great.

[PCCraig]

Did RTJ ever build special greens?  Ben, that could be your answer - a great RTJ course with average greens.

Peachtree, Point O' Woods, Hazeltine, and Bellerive all have a pretty solid set of greens. He also rebuilt the 16th green at Augusta. I wouldn't jump to conclusions too quickly.

[PCCraig]

To answer the first question I find it hard to call a course "great" if the greens are "ho hum" (what does that mean, flat? or does that mean the entire complex is boring?) as IMO a great course starts at the green complex and works it's way back to the tee.

[Tom_Doak]

Ben:

You have taken my point well.  Indeed, the post on Trent Jones here have been interesting, because they seem to prove that all of his best courses are the ones with a really good set of greens.

David Tepper's point that the great British courses often have fairly dull greens is often cited, but only partially true.  Dornoch, Muirfield, St. Andrews, Macrihanish, Prestwick, Sandwich, Ballybunion, Lahinch ... all of these have terrific greens.  However, there are other links like Royal Troon and Carnoustie where the greens are not so good ... notice that most of these have 200 bunkers and extra length to try and make up for it.

The one set of courses where I fear the argument may be true are the heathland courses ... Woodhall Spa, Sunningdale, et al. do not have many greens to write home about, and they are still excellent courses.  But that makes them the exception, not the rule.

[Kenny Baer]

I could argue Sand Hills; outside of a few exceptions there is a lack of internal contour on a large number of them.  They do vary in size and the defense is more the green surrounds than the greens themselves.  Often I had 20-30 footers with less than 6-12 inches of break.