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TEPaul

Re: Disappointing Golf Digest Articles
« Reply #75 on: March 12, 2002, 07:49:55 PM »
Dan Kelly:

You're right! My new mission is economy of words!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Paul Richards

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Re: Disappointing Golf Digest Articles
« Reply #76 on: March 12, 2002, 07:57:52 PM »
TePaul:

Don't start now.

We love your missives!!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Jim_Kennedy

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Re: Disappointing Golf Digest Articles
« Reply #77 on: March 12, 2002, 08:23:06 PM »
TEPaul,
I don't think the USGA made a mistake when they used 109 mph as a test speed. Last season we saw the use of speed guns to register swing speeds of the Pros on a certain driving hole. They mainly hit at around 114 thru 119. The distance a ball travels for every mph of head speed is 2.5 yds. I did the math:  90mph = 225yds., 95mph =237.5yds., 100mph(this one I did in my head ;D  )= 250yds., 109mph(USGA) = 272.5yds.,
118(PRO)= 295yds. 133mph(Tiger)= 332.5yds..
As with the issue of C.O.R., the USGA seems to be somewhere between the high and the low. I don't know if they thought 109 was going to be the max or not but 109mph seems like the middle ground between Pro and Amateur. It's halfway between what a scratch golfer swings at(100) and a Pro, whose speed of 118 smacks it right up against the 292 yd. limit.
If manufacturers were able to skirt the ODS, then they used launch angles/dimple patterns/compressions to bust those numbers, although with some guys, like Tiger, I don't think it matters too much. Even if he were not at his optimum launch angle he would still be crushing if off the charts.
The USGA should take a ball like the PRO V1 and test it under varying launch conditions and varying clubhead speeds, if they aren't already doing so. Once they find out the performance characteristics of this ball they can use the info to set distance standards that should last many lifetimes.    
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Dan Kelly

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Re: Disappointing Golf Digest Articles
« Reply #78 on: March 12, 2002, 08:56:17 PM »
Tom I --

You write: "You're right! My new mission is economy of words!"

Try: "Right! New mission: economy of words!"

Or: "Right! Mission: economy."

Now we're gettin' somewhere!  ;D
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

TEPaul

Re: Disappointing Golf Digest Articles
« Reply #79 on: March 13, 2002, 04:25:40 AM »
Dan:

Using your suggestion of what the USGA should be doing which is best evidenced I think in your last paragraph--wouldn't it have been better if they'd just started out doing that 25 years ago?

With the expected max limit (actual test distance the ball goes) I believe I got that 292yds for max distance of ODS out of the USGA's website, but I'll check again.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Dan Kelly

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Re: Disappointing Golf Digest Articles
« Reply #80 on: March 13, 2002, 08:23:48 AM »
Tom I --

Talkin' to Jim -- right?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

Tim_Weiman

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Re: Disappointing Golf Digest Articles
« Reply #81 on: March 13, 2002, 08:42:05 AM »
Jeff Brauer:

Going back over one of your previous posts, I see there are several points which merit reply.

First, I think you are well aware that nobody is suggesting 8,000 yard courses are currently the norm.  The point is to look at long term trends, evaluate where we are headed and see if it makes any sense.  Based on the current rate of change, I don’t think 8,000 yard golf courses for the professional level player are necessarily that far into the future.  In fact, it was almost ten years ago that I played a golf course with tees build at about 7,700 (The Ocean Course).

I suspect people like yourself don’t like mention of the possibility of 8,000 yard courses because it highlights the absurdity of where we are headed.  You would prefer that people not look down the road or evaluate long term trends.  So, you suggest that people who do are being “emotional”.

Surely you realize nobody is trying to make the Augusta National Golf Club a “scapegoat”.  Instead, we are merely pointing out that Augusta, as the only annual host for a major championship, is in a position to influence the game more than any other golf club.  That is why we think what happens at Augusta is especially important.  To my mind there is a direct link between developments at Augusta and projects like we have seen at Torrey Pines and Riviera.  In one case you have a municipal course spending several million dollars trying to attract the professional level player; on top of that, you have changes being made to one of our nation’s classic courses that we wouldn’t even consider if we just got a handle on the golf ball distance issue.

Do you really believe either project makes sense when we could just introduce a competition ball?

Then, too, you should note that my original criticism wasn’t really directed at Augusta.  Instead, it was directed at journalists covering the Masters Tournament.  Do you really think it makes sense for journalists to encourage spending the money to relocate the 13th green at Augusta?  Shouldn’t they be doing just the reverse, i.e., questioning whether such a project is the most efficient way to address the distance issue?  Or do you believe expressing an interest in efficiency, in lowering the cost of playing golf is, once again, a sign of being too “emotional”?

I also see that you question the notion of a hidden tax when golf club or municipalities spend money to lengthen golf courses?  Well, then, what is it?  Who does pay the bill?  And, again, is there really any evidence that having golf courses around the country spend money to change their golf courses is really more economical than introducing a competition ball?

I’m guessing that the golf industry really doesn’t want to look into this question because what they would find is pretty obvious.  Indeed, I suspect you really don’t want anyone even raising the question.  

You also point out that Tom Fazio has spent lots of money building golf courses less than 7,000 yards.  So what?  Does that mean we should avoid questioning the economics of the golf technology arms race?

Finally, you suggest that introducing a competition ball will end tournament golf.  My God, is that your idea of keeping “emotion” out of the discussion?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Tim Weiman

Ron_Whitten

Re: Disappointing Golf Digest Articles
« Reply #82 on: March 13, 2002, 10:17:33 AM »
Had'nt seen this thread in over a day, and just got another e-mail urging me to respond to more questions. Apparently some bystander out there is getting a kick out of all this head-bashing action.

Dan Kelly - I'm not suggesting Jack stands to financially profit from a competition ball, but it could well preserve his place in history if such a ball makes it less likely to A) have any one person break his record of total majors or B) break his individual records.  PLEASE NOTE: I'm not saying this is Jack's motivation; I'm just saying it might be.  And I'm also saying that, in the heat of battle, he certainly wasn't in favor of equalizing the game. Yeah, he's entitled to change his mind. But it didn't happen in his prime.

Geoff Shackelford - I agree, in an ideal world, on an ideal course, every hole would containing so many blooming shot values that each of us could tackle every hole any number of ways, playing each hole with whatever games we bring to the course. But in the real world, the best we can hope for are individual holes that present individual challenges. The shot values of Augusta National as a whole, I believe, are better now that they don't reward one type of play but demands a variety of shots.  

Pate Mucci -  I fear you have fallen into the trap that I fell into years ago. You figure most golfers play the game for the challenge. And that most golfers get excited about golf course architecture.  Sad truth, most average golfers play for enjoyment, comraderie and even extra spending money. And most average golfers could care less about the thrills and nuances of golf design.  It's an uphill battle to protect the values of the game from a consuming public. That's why carts replaced caddies and GPS systems are all the rage and waterfalls are in vogue (even Gil Hanse had to build one at the request of an owner).  Maybe "progress" is the wrong term to have used, but the game has always changed and will continue to do so. I ain't crazy about all aspects of this change myself.  But I'm learning to accept more of it.

Mike Cirba - I think there are more culprits than just balls and clubs that keep us from playing the courses as they were designed. Irrigation systems, trees, new grasses, etc. also share some blame.  So in the context of trying to get courses to play as they were designed, we can either demand a rollback in distance, shut off irrigation, replant older strains of bent and mow fairways higher, or we can try to adjust courses to play as intended in the light of new technology. Which do you really think is going to happen? Rollback, or adaptation?
   And yes, I do think we've entered the era of 480 yard par 4s. Even 500 yard par 4s.  A lot of architects are building them today, simply to get back to a tradition of the game, trying to force big hitters into actually hitting long irons (or even fairway woods) into some greens. Pete Dye deliberately designs them into the wind so they'll always play real long.  What's wrong with that. Ross said the test of a long iron approach was part of the essence of the game.  

Tim Weiman - I repeat, no manufacturer will produce a competition ball, because there's no money it in.  Don't tell me average golfers will rush out and buy a dead ball that pros can't hit 250 yards.  Look at the pathetic history of the Cayman ball.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Rick Shefchik

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Re: Disappointing Golf Digest Articles
« Reply #83 on: March 13, 2002, 10:31:03 AM »
Ron Whitten:

The Cayman Ball? Please. All one needs to do is hit a Cayman ball once to know that it isn't golf. Like the analogy to the Haskell ball, bringing the Cayman ball into this discussion feels like a way to avoid the real issue.

A competition ball would have all the characteristics of the balls in our bags right now, except that it wouldn't fly quite as far. That's it. We're not talking about the difference between hitting a driver 220 yards and hitting it 110 yards -- that's your Cayman ball. We're talking about the difference between hitting a driver 220 yards and 205 yards, perhaps. There would be no feel difference, no performance difference -- simply a slight restriction on raw distance. As Tom Paul has pointed out here a number of times, that's what the ODS is supposed to do, anyway. Why bring up irrelevant comparisons?

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"Golf is 20 percent mechanics and technique. The other 80 percent is philosophy, humor, tragedy, romance, melodrama, companionship, camaraderie, cussedness and conversation." - Grantland Rice

Richard_Goodale

Re: Disappointing Golf Digest Articles
« Reply #84 on: March 13, 2002, 10:36:24 AM »
Rick

Amen!

I would just add that 99% of golfers--even 99% of us studs, even Dan King--would not know the difference.

Rich
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tim_Weiman

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Re: Disappointing Golf Digest Articles
« Reply #85 on: March 13, 2002, 11:06:38 AM »
Ron Whitten:

To suggest that every current manufacturer of golf balls would opt out of producing a competition ball  - and that there would be no new entrants into the business willing to do so - is just plain silly.  Sure, you may hear posturing from manufuacturers.  But, it is no more than that.

Imagine if Augusta National were to announce that it is thinking of awarding a contract to one supplier, maybe even a multi year contract.

Do you really think Titlelist & Co would opt out of bidding?

Do you really think each comany would decide they would be better off financially if they were frozen out of the Masters and/or the rest of the professional game?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Tim Weiman

Dan Kelly

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Re: Disappointing Golf Digest Articles
« Reply #86 on: March 13, 2002, 11:06:42 AM »
Ron Whitten --

To piggyback on the comments of Messrs. Shefchik and Goodale...

OK, now that we've left the Caymans ball out of this, let's leave Jack Nicklaus out of it, too. You seem to be opposed to the Competition Ball in part because Jack favors it, and you find that hypocritical. So let's not cloud the issue with Jack.

I,  Dan Kelly, favor a Competition Ball -- to be used in USGA and R&A events; in the Masters, if they want it; in the PGA, if they want it; on the PGA Tour, if they want it; in any state or regional or club event that chooses to require its use; in any setting where the players agree to use it.

I, Dan Kelly, have no records to protect. I, Dan Kelly, stand to make no money from the Competition Ball. (This is starting to remind me of the Al Franken Decade!) I, Dan Kelly, AM in my prime. (Just kiddin'. No comments from the peanut gallery, Rick.)

I, Dan Kelly, favor the introduction of the Competition Ball for Competition Golf (not for your Recreational Golf, unless the Recreational Golfers so choose) because it will solve the problem I most care about in golf: that the classics of golf-course design are increasingly being rendered obsolete for the highest-level competition in the absence of (1) goofy, tricked-up conditions, or (2) expensive and needless redesign.

Tell me: Why am I, Dan Kelly, wrong about the Competition Ball?

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

TEPaul

Re: Disappointing Golf Digest Articles
« Reply #87 on: March 13, 2002, 11:20:49 AM »
Ron W:

You said:

"Sad truth, the average golfer plays for enjoyment, camaraderie and even extra spending money. Most golfers couldn't care less about the thrills and nuances of golf design."

I'm always a little wary of pat statements like that one that seem to create the assumption of an either/or situation! Do you really believe that if the average golfer was offered some thrills and nuances in golf design, that somehow would hurt his enjoyment, camaraderie or his interest in extra spending money? I can't imagine how that could be! It would seem to me to make those things that you say he's interested in (about which I have no doubt you're entirely correct) even better!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mark_Fine

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Re: Disappointing Golf Digest Articles
« Reply #88 on: March 13, 2002, 12:23:46 PM »
I actually just spent 30 minutes reading this whole thread  :(
I also just read Golf Magazines "Masters Preview" which is basically a duplication of the Golf Digest one so we should throw them into the fray as well.

Tom Paul,
I've talked about my 99% rule since God knows when on this site about why golfers play golf.  Why continue to deny that it's probably true?  

A while ago I made a post about 8000 yard courses that got little interest.  It was about what Flynn wrote in 1927.  He said, “If, as in the past, the distance to be gotten with the ball continues to increase, it will be necessary to go to 7,500 and even 8,000 yard courses and more yards mean more acres to buy, more course to construct, more fairway to maintain and more money for the golfer to fork out.”

In the same essay by Flynn, he stated that, “this year’s open championship was decided on a course approximately 7,000 yards long.”  
 
Anyway, my question was – What changes do you think Flynn (and other architects) envisioned would be made to their golf courses (if any) since in time, Flynn (and I’m sure others) believed they would no longer be of “championship” length?  
Mark
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Jim_Kennedy

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Re: Disappointing Golf Digest Articles
« Reply #89 on: March 13, 2002, 12:30:54 PM »
TEPaul,
I guess you meant me, as Dan suggested.

Yes, the USGA should have been doing this 25 years ago but   I think they did use constants of swing speed and loft to achieve their goals using the Iron Byron. I don't think anyone had the foresight to predict 130+ mph swings with 5.5 degree drivers. I know of no one who ever gave this much consideration.
It is probably time to find some new constants that reflect the higher clubhead speeds and more powerful launch angles we see today. But even then they will need to be somewhere in the middle between Pro and Amateur.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Disappointing Golf Digest Articles
« Reply #90 on: March 13, 2002, 01:17:04 PM »
Tim Weiman,

Well, one of the problems with using examples to back up a point is that it can read (both ways in this case) that there are only two extreme points of view.  My point is exactly opposite - there are degrees, and in fact, much smaller degrees than we expect, simply looking at Augusta or tournament courses in general, as they are such a small part of the golf world puzzle.

And, on one hand, Augusta leaped 285 yards in one year - 4%, but it also lept 285 yards over a decade as well - .4% annually.  It only lengthed dramatically this year because club officials decided to do most of the work in one phase.  So, we can - and do - use statistics (as well as words, like outrage on other threads) to prove our respective points.  In fact, the new Augusta is no longer than tournament courses like Firestone have been for 20 years.  

Someone suggested that 10% of courses may be lengthened a year.  I used statistical facts from my work to say that it isn't that much.  That would be 1700 courses per year lengthened?  It's not even 170.  its probably more like 17, which equates to 0.1% of our courses lengthened each year.  Given that, we have a bit more time to gaze into the future without rushing into anything!

I don't think I was getting emotional on the issue at all, especially compared to some others using Augusta to make their point.  As Mark Fine writes, he brought up a Flynn article on "theroetical" 8000 yard courses and got little response.  Bring up 8000 yards in connection with Augusta, and the replies and views go way, way, up.  My point regarding the politicians using scapegoats (welfare moms or corporate greed, as the case may be) was made because I sense some similarities in the situations!  Mention Augusta as a problem and let the discussions begin!  We have a poster child representing all that is bad with technology!

Do I think remodelling courses makes sense when we could just introduce the competition ball?  Not sure, and not smart enough to know!  But I do think that it is inevitable that some city group might conjour up the idea of upgrading its local public course to lure an open for civic reasons, just as Hartford, Milwaukee, etc. did with PGA tour events.  The USGA decision to use Bethpage probably promted the idea.  But, does one example, or even two make a trend?

And, while I was perhaps a bit overdramatic on the end of the tour, I still think casual fan ticket sales and even TV interest would go down if players started hitting it shorter.  Only a few non golfers (hell even golfers) really understand the intracite shotmaking skills of the players.

I have no problem with anyone looking into the future.  Its both fun and instructive.  I also think I have nothing to hide!  Ron and I are doing it in our posts - but perhaps from a broader perspective.  Geez, I hate to get bashed (if that what it is) for recognizing reality.

I think that most predictions (especially those of impending doom) have historically proven wrong.  People wiser than me suggest you can predict the future by looking at the past.  I see a gradual increase in distance, maintenance conditions, public access to golf, wider acceptance across society, etc. and predict all of those trends will continue, precisely because all trends provide the greatest good to the greatest number of people as it regards golf.

I don't know - and haven't heard anyone go on here to create a sound rational, as its seems just presumed, for - whether golf should take a step backwards voluntarily in clubs, balls, or maintenance, etc. any more than it should in exclusivity or public access and acceptance of non whites into the game, for instance.  First, while our desire to protect a limited number of historically important courses is both understandable and laudable, this may take a back seat (if fact, it has) to other things, most listed above.  Second, I can't think of a single thing off hand in the whole human experience where taking a technolgical step backwards ever worked out.  its certainly against human nature.

You could argue, of course, that banishing nuclear weapons would be a good step backwards.  While high technology clubs are golf's "nuclear weapons" I'm not sure they are proportionally the same scale of problems!

You are correct that this thread has "morphed" (imagine that on this site) from commentary on GD's role in promoting technology reduction to a broader discussion.  I will leave that to Dan Kelly, or other jouralists who frequent here.  I know the "old school" of journalism tried to report the facts, and stay out of the story.  

Generally, I think GD stays out of this, realizing that any reporter has bias.  Some journalists practice "advocacy" journalism, but I didn't get the sense Ron was comfortable in this.  He accepted what was and wrote on whether it was working, ending up with a positive spin.  In fairness, they did give a bit of a counter point, in that they assessed how it would affect a dozen prominent players.

Some here were dissapointed that he didn't, but there is a lot to be said for the old school style of reporting, whether or not we agree with conclusions. In fact, by this old line of thinking, those of you who think Ron would have set a "higher standard" by being an advocate for reigning in technology at the Masters have it exactly backwards!

Any comments Dan Kelly?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Ron_Whitten

Re: Disappointing Golf Digest Articles
« Reply #91 on: March 13, 2002, 04:26:58 PM »
T.E. Paul --  In case you didn't catch my drift, I was LAMENTING the fact that so few golfers will care about golf architecture or challenges.  That's why out of a nation of 17 million golfers, there are about 300 of us that lurk around this site, not 2 million.  I've spent my life trying to generate more interest in the average golfer to the topic.  I don't think their enjoyment would be lessened with a few "nuances" in the game, it would be enhanced. But my point is, most golfers don't bother to study those nuances, wouldn't recognize them if they bit them, and don't really care. I believe that a pretty accurate "pat" statement.

Dan Kelly -  Do you have any idea how much it costs to start up a golf ball company? Ask Callaway, which spent hundreds of millions. No new company would start up just to produce a competition ball.  If the Masters and PGA Tour agreed upon a compeitition ball (a huge IF, seeing as how the Tour exists to placate tour players, not challenge them), do I think Titleist would pass the opportunity to bid on producing such a ball. Absolutely. There is no, repeat, no money it it?  Even if Augusta National agreed to buy all the balls, how many balls would it order for a Masters. Maybe three times the number it presently orders for range balls for the event? Say 10 times that many. Titleist produces that many golf balls in a day. Less than a day.  

I don't believe for a second consumers would purchase a competition ball in huge quantities.  Everyone admits, it's not supposed to be for regular golfers, who want all the distance it can get.  Nobody buys persimmon drivers anymore.  For the same reason.

By the way, I brought up the Cayman ball simply to point out that, despite the endorsement of Jack Nicklaus, golfers never went for it.  Just like they'd not go for a competition ball for their own use.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Disappointing Golf Digest Articles
« Reply #92 on: March 13, 2002, 05:32:20 PM »
Ron Whitten:

If you really believe that every company in the golf ball business would pass on the chance to be "The Official Golf Ball of The Masters Tournament", then you are just not a serious student of business or a real journalist.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Tim Weiman

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Disappointing Golf Digest Articles
« Reply #93 on: March 13, 2002, 06:04:45 PM »
Tim,

I wonder whether many manufacturers would take up the competition ball.  There may be some prestige in it, but no sales.  Let's see....50 tournaments a year, perhaps 150 competitors, using about 2 dozen balls each week - thats only 15,000 dozen in a business that measures in millions of dozens.  In a low margin business, I wonder if the prestige would be worth it.

Actually, I heard a few years ago that titleist only made one HP ball.  They tried for 100 compression, but measured after construction and put all the 95 plus balls in the 100 pile, and the 95 minus in the 90 pile, to wrap up for sale.  I think manufacturing tolerances have gotten a bit better though.  Maybe there is a stockpile of old titleist 90s somewhere that could be used for a year or two.

Although we will never settle this - or any - argument here, Ron at least backs up his opinion with some semblance of fact, regarding money, other short playing balls that weren't embraced, etc.

What's your factual or anecdotal back up for the "not a serious journalist" charge?  Or not a student of business?  Ron is certainly a student of subjects that interest him, as evidenced by the fact that he is a walking encyclopedia of golf architecture.  Call him and ask the designer of some obscure golf course, and he will know it off the top of his head!

I'm not sure if he is a student of business, but I'll bet he gets a fair dose of golf business briefings during golf digest corporate get togethers, whether he wants them or not!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Disappointing Golf Digest Articles
« Reply #94 on: March 13, 2002, 06:21:25 PM »
Ron Whitten --

(1) Perhaps you missed my question: Why are you opposed to a Competition Ball?

I asked you why I was wrong about it -- and you replied that no manufacturer would agree to produce it.

But that's not what I asked. I asked why I (not to mention my buddy Big Jack) am wrong about the virtues of the Competition Ball -- presuming (just go along with our craziness, OK?) that someone would produce it.

(2) You write: "[M]ost golfers don't bother to study those nuances, wouldn't recognize them if they bit them, and don't really care. I believe that a pretty accurate 'pat' statement."

Extremely pat! You bet! Let me add something not so pat: Your magazine (and your principal competitor) could do a HELLUVA lot more than you do to educate your readership about golf course design. You know that, and I know that, and your editors know that. (Please note: I am NOT criticizing you, personally, here. I'm sure that you've pushed for more and better coverage of architecture. And I'm equally sure that your editors are convinced that all your readers care about is hitting it longer and straighter and fewer times per round.)

CURE YOUR SLICE -- GUARANTEED! Year after year after year!

HOW TO DRIVE IT LONGER! Year after year after year!

Golf Digest is in a perfect position to educate on golf matters other than the mechanics of the swing. I sure wish it would.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

TEPaul

Re: Disappointing Golf Digest Articles
« Reply #95 on: March 13, 2002, 06:24:34 PM »
But RonW, with all due respect, that's my point!

If the average golfer doesn't seem interested in some "thrilling nuances" in design maybe it's because they aren't aware of it because it's not really been given to them!

Even if they don't seem to be clambeing for it as us 512 fanatics are what would happen if architects just gave it to them? Do you think they would freak out and resist or do you think they would enjoy it? Just because they seem to enjoy the mundane should not really mean they would not enjoy some thrilling "nuances", don't you think?

If you think they would resist "thrilling nuances" in design if it were given to them would you mind explaining to me why you think that? And if you don't think they would resist would you explain then why more architects don't just give it to them?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Disappointing Golf Digest Articles
« Reply #96 on: March 13, 2002, 07:16:40 PM »
Jeff Brauer:

You wonder whether "many manufacturers" would produce a competition ball.

I must be making progress!

Ron Whitten suggested that "no manufacturer" would produce a competition ball.

Doesn't that statement in itself tell you something about how serious a student of business he is?  Would any serious journalist ever make such a statement?

You want anecdotal evidence?

A couple years ago I ran into a Titlelist rep in a golf store about the time when the Pro V1 came out.  Because my oil industry career involved spending a fair amount of time in refinery blending operations, I asked him how difficult it was for Titlelist to switch specifications in their golf ball manufacturing operations.  The more we talked, the more it seemed like the process was fairly similiar to gasoline blending.  Specifically, they produced balls in batches, switching specifications wasn't especially difficult and gradually, over time, quality control performance was improving.  He also mentioned that forecasting was one of the biggest challenges, i.e., deciding how much of each ball to produce.

I'm quite sure you won't be surprised that we went on to discuss Titlelist's marketing materials and how much the company values having leading professionals playing their ball.

By the way, this individual said he has worked for Titlelist for a long time and seemed very familiar with the company's operations.

Have I had similiar conversations with other golf ball company representatives?  No, I haven't.  But, I think it fair to say all place a high value on being the supplier of choice to leading golf professionals.  Indeed, they value it so much that they give their product away and pay players to use them.

Jeff, we clearly have a different view of what technology should be used for and what constitutes "progress".  I believe technology should be used to lower costs and that making the game more affordable is a goal well worth striving for.

But, I am curious.  Do you really believe Ron Whitten's suggestion that the 13th green at Augusta should be re-created fifty yards away is an idea worth supporting?

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Tim Weiman

TEPaul

Re: Disappointing Golf Digest Articles
« Reply #97 on: March 13, 2002, 07:35:29 PM »
If a competition ball was agreed upon for the tour player,for the good amateur and such, some serious observer of golf thinks Titleist would refuse to produce the ball?

My God, that particular market has been the company's bread and butter for how many decades now?

For Titleist to refuse to make the ball and continue to dominate that particular market would be about the best way for the company to just pull out the old proverbial gun and commit corporate suicide!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Disappointing Golf Digest Articles
« Reply #98 on: March 13, 2002, 08:18:36 PM »
Tom Paul:

At the risk of beating a dead horse, I thought that suggestion was one of the silliest things I've ever heard.

There is no way Titleist would walk away from that market segment.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Tim Weiman

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Disappointing Golf Digest Articles
« Reply #99 on: March 13, 2002, 09:26:34 PM »
Tim,

Fair enough on the Titleist specs.  I said a while ago that I thought a logical conclusion could be the Pro V 7200, 6500, etc. so a course of any length could simulate virtually any era of golf.  Why stop at the competition ball if a small segment of golfers want "less length, height and spin"?

As you started this thread, Augusta is a private club and has the right to do what they want.  I agree with Tom MacWood that the stream recreation would likely lose something.  Same with the new fourth green, if built.  I recall playing Pinehurst soon before and not long after the greens were supposedly recontoured exactly with laser technology.  I felt I could tell the difference, but human perception is a funny thing.  My guess is that if they did it, we would all hate the new 13 for several years, and then our memories would get fuzzier, or something thrilling would happen at the new 13 to make it part of Masters lore, and it would gradually get more acceptance.

To answer your question, if I were consulting architect to Augusta, and they asked me what to do to bring 13 back into the shot values it once had, I would move the tee back first, as they did.  I may even flatten the fairway to reduce the roll on a hook, or add rolls to give a funky lie in certain spots to require more tee shot accuracy.  I would certainly touch the green last, even if, as Ron mentioned, it is a 1983 Nicklaus green, and as I mentioned, the creek has been fiddled with.  But, if the priority of Augusta was to return shot values, and they decided to do it through architecture rather than a competition ball, then I would reluctantly do my best to recreate that green.

The only difference in our opinions is that I don't think it would be the end of the world, or even golf design - just a continuation of what has been happening since about the second day of play on the worlds first golf course - tinkering with it to make it better!

I do agree with Geoff S about August following the common trend to rough, narrower fariways, etc.  I liked the difference the course set up made in the feel of this major vs others.  I also think the "easy" holes help with the wide swings in score that make the Masters exciting.  The few Masters competitors I know all said to a tee that the width and "lack of definition" made the course harder.  I think I recall some pros saying the new definition of rough made it easier to set up.

I'm not sure that the pros (again remembering that for this course, and probably this course only) they are the the target audience of the design, would use various options under tournament pressure, but who knows.  Would it be worth it if it happened every five years in a critical situation?

I also agree with Ron that balancing shot requirements over 18 holes is more practical than having a host of options on every hole!  Most holes do one thing well, and to try to do more is usually a fatal design flaw.

Its a tough question no doubt, and as you probably know, I don't mind engaging in a spirited debate, and even play devils advocate once and a while to stir some juices!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

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