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David_Elvins

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Disappointing Golf Digest Articles
« Reply #25 on: March 11, 2002, 07:46:02 PM »
Tim,

Throughout many posts you have championed the notion of a standardised shorter ball.

You have also stated that you work in the oil industry.  I would be interested to know why you think the USGA can stand up to equipment manufacturers on the ball issue when the worlds most powerful orgainsation, the US government, can not stand up to energy companies on the issue of clean sustainable energy.  

Shouldn't we just admit that "the world/golf" is run by multinational corporations whose economic clout gives them more influence than the ruling bodies set up to protect and regulate the "world/game of golf" and work inside these limitations?

Maybe the USGA could also introduce a policy of self regulation.  "Could all ball manufacturers make shorter flying balls please".  Or maybe a regulation golf ball can be worked into the Kyoto Treaty. I don't know.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Ask not what GolfClubAtlas can do for you; ask what you can do for GolfClubAtlas.

John_McMillan

Re: Disappointing Golf Digest Articles
« Reply #26 on: March 11, 2002, 08:03:00 PM »
Ron Whitten,

In another thread, you are quoted in your Augusta article talking about the 4'th hole.  I haven't yet read the April Golf Digest, but the article reports that changes to a new 4'th green at Augusta National will return it to its original Redan design.  The 4'th at Augusta was origially patterned after the 11'th (Eden) at St. Andrews - it is the 6'th which was modeled after the Redan.

Is that mistake yours or Fazio's?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: Disappointing Golf Digest Articles
« Reply #27 on: March 11, 2002, 08:36:03 PM »
David Elvins:

You say; "Maybe the USGA could also introduce a policy of self regulation, and say "could you all make a shorter flying ball please"?"

They don't have to! They already have a policy like that and have for many many decades. That's their policy and has been. Basically, it's call voluntary compliance and that's always been what their rules and their policy has been based on!

If someone wants to challenge them or disregard them there's not much they can do about it. Some people actually think they can take someone to court, like a manufacturer. They never have, and they never will. Voluntary compliance just doesn't work like that!

As for your analogous example of why the US Government doesn't stand up to the oil industry? Probably because for the last six out of fourteen years a rather important part of the US Government comes from the oil industry!

Sorry about that Tim!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Disappointing Golf Digest Articles
« Reply #28 on: March 11, 2002, 09:15:19 PM »
David Elvins,


Fair questions.  Assuming people won't mind a digression from golf, I'll answer.

The most significant piece of legislation effecting the oil industry in the past twenty years was the Clean Air Act.  Among the provisions were requirements for the oil industry to produce far cleaner burning fuel.  Initially, there was a big debate about whether the standards proposed by EPA were technically feasible.  In time, it became clear that EPA's proposed requirements for cleaner gasoline could be achieved.

It would just be very expensive.

Nonetheless, the Clean Air Act was passed and the oil industry responded by spending a huge sum of money to produce cleaner gasoline and diesel fuel.  How big?  About equivalent to the entire value of the US refining industry.

Suggesting the US government didn't stand up to the oil industry is simply at odds with the facts.  Indeed, some people think the government pushed too hard.  For instance, today we are seeing the use of MTBE in gasoline phased out for environmental reasons.  If you like reading Congressional testimony, you will note that during the Clean Air Act debate the oil industry warned both Congress and EPA that the health risks of using MTBE were not understood.  But, EPA insisted and got their way.  More than ten years later, the oil industry's caution on this issue is now being appreciated.

The politics of the oil industry frequently contradict popular assumptions.  The Clean Air Act placed a huge tax on the oil industry.  It was passed under a Republican Administration with a President from the oil industry (George Bush).

By contrast, a Democratic President (Jimmy Carter) pushed for the removal of price controls placed on the oil industry under two previous Republican Administrations (Nixon and Ford) during the 1970's.

I noticed you used the word "sustainable".  You might be aware that wider use of ethanol will be replacing the MTBE being phased out of gasoline.  Oil companies have never been big fans of ethanol (except in Brazil), but the government is pushing forward despite the fact that the environmental impact of ethanol may be even more questionable than using MTBE.

Anyway, I think the US government was right to push hard for the oil industry to achieve higher environmental standards.  I have several oil industry friends who spent time working in the former Soviet Union zone and came back with horror stories about what happens when the government doesn't play this role.

In sum, the US government pushed for and achieved much cleaner transportation fuels.  Suggesting the USGA can't get a handle on the golf ball distance issue is hardly supported by the regulatory history of the oil industry.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Tim Weiman

Mike O'Neill

Re: Disappointing Golf Digest Articles
« Reply #29 on: March 12, 2002, 04:17:06 AM »
TEPaul,

You make some great points about already set in place policies that do not seem to have kept the distance of the ball in check. I have said here on another thread that I would be thrilled with a 1995 version of a golf ball. That would still leave the vast majority of the courses playable. And #13 at Augusta would remain a strong hole as is. There may still be a lot of birdies, but Fred Couples will still occasionally find the creek too.

You also make a point about the USGA not having foresight. Every time any one of us picked up the latest ball over the last 20 years, we lacked foresight. By purchasing the latest longer balls, we fostered this environment. So to that extent, we all lacked foresight. And if a guy like Dan King, who suggests we consider playing with only 8 clubs, won't go back to a shorter ball, then why do you think the pros will? Yes, they should at the very least stop right now. No more improvements to the ball. As you suggest, the ODS has been a topped tee shot on an uphill hole with tall rough immediately in front of the tee into a stiff wind on a dewy morning.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Disappointing Golf Digest Articles
« Reply #30 on: March 12, 2002, 04:48:44 AM »
To change the environment, it must begin at the top.

If the PGA Tour won't reign in the ball, then I hope Hootie
and the Masters' comittee will reconsider and go to one
tournament ball.

Now, before there's any further damage. :'(
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Jeff Mingay

Re: Disappointing Golf Digest Articles
« Reply #31 on: March 12, 2002, 05:02:04 AM »
Gary Smith makes a good point above. Fine, move the 13th green back 40 yards, while nothing is done about the golf ball. But what is Augusta National to do in 10-15 years when the 13th becomes driver/6-iron again?

That's the question to be answered. It's not about today. It's about the future of the game of golf. Forget the Haskell analogy. Is an even longer ball going to benefit the game in the long run?

I don't think so: 400 yard + drives = 8,000 yard courses = extraordinary green fees = no one plays but the $$$
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Disappointing Golf Digest Articles
« Reply #32 on: March 12, 2002, 05:39:33 AM »
Tim,

I feel that there should be some historic courses preserved to their original state, as I love architecture and the history of architecture.  It would be a small percentage of each important archtitects work (including Tom Fazios, simply for future reference!) and may have to be implemented by government fiat through the historic register.  A few old clubs would suffer some loss of property rights freedom, especially if they did not voluntarily agree to the program.

For most courses, even those done by Ross, et al, I think that it is inevitable that change will occur and that the owners of those courses should be generally in charge of their destiny.  This is and always will be subject to "the good of the people" meaning complying with all environmental, civil rights, etc. laws that may be enacted.  

It also means that at courses like Pinehurst, Riv, Augusta, etc., that changes will be made, because the primary intent of those courses is to be suitable for tournaments today, and not be museum pieces.  For that matter, the changes to Augusta over the years to meet the needs of its limited target audience (ie pros) are similar to changes most courses make to meet their target audiences - which have changed in many cases, to a wider audience and skill level, among other things.

So, your example of Prestwick is a perfect example of a course that stays charmingly in character with its 17th century origins, and happily so.  But, it won't hold another British Open! And its members probably derive a certain amuont of pride playing it, but it doesn't truly fit the modern game.  Without its history, few would value its design characteristics as highly.

I feel amost golf course changes have had reasonable thought processes, given the facts the best thinkers of the time had at their disposal.  Certainly, not every renovation turns out well.  There were also trends and predispositions at various times, including a push in all areas to "modernize" which now causes us to regres some losses of classic features.

Nostalgia is inevitable.  We look at fifties rock and roll and bemoan (perhaps) that loss of innocence that occurred in the acid rock sixties, or even the sexing up of a Brittany Spears at the expense of real music.  Nostalgia increases in good economic times, and granted, when current culture seems to be lacking something.  But human nature is something that usually pines for the 'good old days", so we always feel something is lacking in modern life - or golf design, and I don't know that many of the calls for "original design intent" aren't as much out of nostalgia as they are real practicality.

But, change does happen, almost universally, and certainly to golf courses.  Until they make me "king of the world" I will respond to the things I can change, accept the things I can't, and try to be smart enough to know the difference!

No one design concept - either modernization or original intent will suffice everywhere, IHMO.  We hope those in charge know the difference at their particular club.

TEPaul,

My comments and Rons comments are rationalizations only if we accept the premise that distance is a problem requiring a solution!  In my mind, that has been established firmly here on this site, but is not generally accepted in the outside world!  I think Ron agrees.

As you imply, it would be nice if the distance wouldn't keep going up for pros, if only so we could play current tournaments on courses Hogan played with some semblance of comparison.  In my view, that may take a special new "honors major" (you know, if they add a major there is more money in it for everyone) where everyone agrees for that week to compete in the US "Classic course" open with modified equipment.  If it was a major, players would show up.  Augusta would in fact be the perfect place to try out the concept.  It will be ironic if they do implement ball changes there after the course changes.  Then, they will lament :"we didn't have to change it after all".

But, going forward is human history, not going backwards.  I doubt you would trade your 'beamer for a 1970 Pinto, would you? :) Most golfers would not trade their current course for a 1938 version.  As I have said before, I look at the old phots, and see some amazing architecture, but I also see lots of bland architecture, and more importantly poor maintenance.  I doubt many of us would go back to 1938 turf conditions, even if there are a few top courses out there that overdo maintenance right now.  Those, including ANGC, are few and far between.

If my analogy to the Haskell is a joke, so is your question about how many holes have been lengthened, and/or their greens rebuilt.  Look at old scorecards of the "classic" courses then extant, up to and including St. Andrews, and you will find that they nearly all have!  

The history of St. Andrews has old Tom Morris changing that course, often to critical comments.  We also know of the Morris/Robertson rift.  Did they want to keep the Guttie for the good of the game, or to keep the money of old technology flowing to their pocket, and not some new manufacturer with a better idea?  I think the latter is true, not the romantic notion of how idealistic the "old guys" may have been.

Any claim of "This time its different" must be met with some reluctance, in golf and in bull markets.  History proves only the numbers change (ie drives over 300 vs drives over 200 (gasp!) yards a century ago.   I believe a case can be made that change has always been part of golf and golf design.  I accept it.  Hey, in many cases, we even look forward to the new changes to our local golf courses, as for us it enhances our play!  On the other hand, we focus on places that don't really affect us directly (a case can be made for indirectly for ANGC) in these discussions.

I accept that the ODS had some unanticipated problems and that the usga failed to meet its original goal with it.  Distance keeps going up, at least at the top levels of play.  It goes up for some amateurs, too, and as Mike O'mNeil points out, even if we wanted to, we can't seem to effectively boycott the new balls that go further.  I guess, we really don't want to hit it shorter do we?  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Mike O'Neill

Re: Disappointing Golf Digest Articles
« Reply #33 on: March 12, 2002, 06:04:28 AM »
Paul Richards,

This not only starts at the top, it starts at the bottom. And everywhere in between. You lamented on the other thread that you shot you best round last year with one of the new superballs. Well, don't use it! The pros are not paying for their balls. The average golfer is the one propping up the ball manufacturers. And besides, we all have to look in the mirror. If we won't stop using the equipment, is it not hypocritical to ask someone else to? In fact, I don't see how the argument for turning back the clock can even go any further until the masses stop clamoring for the next newest best longest straightest roundest ball. Do as I say, not as I do never has held up in America as a sustainable policy--for anything.

And since we definitely won't save ourselves from the longer ball, let it stop right now, where it is. So that none of us is ever tempted again. That would be fine with me.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Disappointing Golf Digest Articles
« Reply #34 on: March 12, 2002, 06:55:16 AM »
Jeff Brauer:

You still have not made the case for why building 8,000 yard courses is progress.

In my opinion, a very large percentage of the golfing public doesn't need the playing field to be longer than, say, 6,200 yards.  Perhaps 75 percent.

Increase that distance to 6,500 and you cover 95-98 percent.  When you get to 7,000 yards you are well past 99 percent.

So, why would we build 8,000 yard courses when it would be far more efficient to introduce a competition ball?

The failure to do so amounts to quietly placing a hidden tax on the golfing public, one that they get absolutely nothing in return for.

That is why it is so disappointing that prominent writers like Ron Whitten fail to play a more constructive role.  He has the stage, but just drops the ball, so to speak.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Tim Weiman

Lou Duran

Re: Disappointing Golf Digest Articles
« Reply #35 on: March 12, 2002, 07:34:58 AM »
David E.-

The clean, sustainable energy you seem to believe we are being deprived of because of the omnipotence of the oil industry will be widely available when it makes economic sense.  As Tim clearly pointed out, the oil industry is very heavily regulated, and the populist political analysis in not supported by the facts.  Energy is a huge factor in our economy, and oil is affordable, relatively benign in terms of environmental impact under current regulation, and readily available.  For the government to impose more burdensome regulation in favor of the darlings of the environmental movement- solar and wind, it would only drive the cost of oil products through the sky.  This would be a regressive tax on the more economically sensitive, and I can just hear our socialists friends scream about the greedy oil multinationals.  Just a couple of summers ago new EPA standards went into effect in a number of major metropolitan areas resulting in spot shortages and large local price increases.   Who yelled the loudest?  The same folks who demanded the more stringent standards.

BTW, I had some beautiful though nearly valueless rural land taken from me through eminent domain to be used as part of a clean, sustainable energy generating facility.  I haven't seen the results, but reportedly, the windmill towers are most unsightly, the noise is disconcerting, and the wild horses that used to run on the land will just have to find other suitable habitat.  Compare this to the Alaskan pipeline where it has become a tourist attraction and the wildlife routinely uses
its path because it facilitates movement.

Back to golf, while there are some on this site who advocate a roll-back of the ball applicable to all, I think that most who are concerned about the repercussions of the arms race in techonlogy would settle for a tournament ball at the professional and top amateur levels.  I don't buy the one game argument- it is clear to me that the game that Ernie and Tiger play bears little resemblance to what I play.  The USGA, the PGA, and the Tour can require specific ball characteristics for their competitions much like in professional baseball and basketball.  If Joe Sixpack wants to play a Condor and his buddies don't mind, who cares?  Golf is supposed to be fun, and the ANGCs, Rivieras, and Merions of this world aren't being modified to please these guys.

        
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Disappointing Golf Digest Articles
« Reply #36 on: March 12, 2002, 07:41:08 AM »
Ron Whitten --

You write: "Hey, guys. Sorry you were disappointed that I didn't use Golf Digest as a soap box for ranting against technology. [Dan says, with all due respect -- and speaking only for myself, of course: I don't want or expect you to "use Golf Digest as a soap box" or to "rant against technology"; I want you to THINK -- and then to draw thoughtful conclusions ... whether or not they agree with mine. Like Tim Weiman, whose response to you I loudly applaud, I was prepared to cut you some slack, given where you work and who pays the bills there -- but now I'm flabbergasted by how little thought you seem to have given this matter, to judge by the content of your post in this thread.] But if anybody thinks they can put this genie back in its bottle, they're crazy. [Dan says: Then call me crazy. Call a lot of us crazy. But do us a favor, in the meantime: Read (and ask your editors to read) the threads labeled "Rollin' back the ODS, then what?" and "Litigation against equipment manufacturers," and you'll see that some reasonable people reasonably disagree with your view of what's crazy and what isn't, and which genies we can reasonably hope will be put back into which bottles. I've brought those threads back up to the top, so that you can easily find them ... and can consider the merits of the Competition Ball as a solution to Championship Golf's problems -- a solution that would in no way threaten recreational golf or the companies (including magazines) that cater to those recreational golfers. Perhaps other posters will recall, and then retrieve, some other threads that address these matters thoughtfully; these were the two I remembered.] Frankly, most of what I read from you guys is what was said at the advent of the Haskell ball (It's ruin the game!) and the steel shaft. [Dan says: Maybe so -- but so what? Just because someone's argument was at one time wrong (or at least premature) does not make it wrong today!] It's call progress, and even if we may not like it, it's happening. [Dan says: (1) "It's call(ed) progress"? What century are you living in? The 19th? Here in the 21st century, where most people who've given it some thought realize that some technologies amount to unalloyed progress and others come with a fearsome price, I say: The continuing technological revolution in golf amounts to CHANGE -- sometimes progress, and sometimes not. It's certainly not progress, in any sense, that some classic championship courses are no longer suited for championship play, and that others (such as The Old Course) keep needing new, farther-back tees, and that the list of such championship-obsolete and continuously-modified courses will inexorably lengthen as ball flight does. It's certainly not progress that the Augusta National Golf Club needed to add several hundred yards to its course -- and now, apparently, needs to think about moving the 13th green so as to maintain the hole's risk/reward character. That's not progress, by any definition; that's just grotesque! Golf's technological advances are certainly not unalloyed progress for those of us who pay the ever-increasing costs of ever-longer golf courses out of our own pockets, without a Golf Digest credit card in our wallets! They're certainly not unalloyed progress for those of us who are not rich enough to buy each generation of the ever-more-expensive equipment that will give us an extra 20 yards much more surely than will reading Phil Mickelson's cover story in this month's Golf Digest! But don't get me wrong: I'm not proposing any halt in club-technology advancements, no matter how expensive they might be, and no matter how many people can't afford them; I'm proposing, merely, a Competition Ball. (2) "... even if we may not like it"? Do you, or don't you?] So how do golf courses adjust?  Demand a rollback of the club and ball distances? It ain't gonna happen. Period. [Dan says: I think you're right. That's why we need a Competition Ball.] Has nothing to do with whether manufacturers advertise in Golf Digest. [Dan says: Maybe not -- but Golf Digest's editorial stances regarding equipment are certainly affected by the magazine's advertisers -- and certainly affect whether those manufacturers advertise there. Please don't deny that editorial and advertising considerations overlap -- because any such denial won't pass the smell test. I'm a former magazine editor, and I know how it is. Hell, I don't even FAULT you for it. But I do expect Golf Digest -- and the other magazines -- to do whatever you can reasonably do, given that your financial well-being depends on the support of equipment-makers, to LEAD golf to a future in which (1) the Average Golfer can get his kicks by hitting it farther and farther and farther, and (2) they won't need to relocate Augusta's 13th green, and Merion will be long enough to host a US Open, and Torrey Pines won't have to be 7,600 yards long to get the USGA's attention, and ....] It's that most golfers wanna hit the ball longer, or at least think they're hitting it longer, and have been willing to pay for all this new fangled technology." [Dan says: Fine. Let them. The campaign for the Competition Ball, as Tim Weiman and Lou Duran say in their recent posts, is not ABOUT "most golfers"; it's about a few great golfers, and a few great golf courses. You guys at Golf Digest could do the future of golf a huge service if you'd join the campaign for it.]

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:03 PM by -1 »
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

Mike O'Neill

Re: Disappointing Golf Digest Articles
« Reply #37 on: March 12, 2002, 08:11:39 AM »
Now that I think of it, #13 AN actually makes a great par 4. There, that one's settled.  :)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Disappointing Golf Digest Articles
« Reply #38 on: March 12, 2002, 08:17:55 AM »
Tim,

I agree with you completely about 8000 yard courses. Increased distance is not a problem for average courses and average golfers.  Extrapolating what happens at Augusta doesn't apply to most golfers and courses.

I wasn't trying to make a case for 8000 yard courses.  But, no one else has made the case that all - or even the majority - of new courses are being built to even 7500 yards.  Most courses are still about 7000 yards maximum.  Fazio still builds sub 7000 yard courses frequently.  So do we all.  And most old courses still sit at 6500 to 6800 yards, I'm guessing.

My point is that we are basing lots of rhetoric about lengthening courses on Augusta National, which is increasing yardage for a target audience of (as of todays announced field) 89 players.  The answers to the percieved problem will be complex.  But so far, IMHO, the fact that new technology allows me to hit my drives approximately as far as Nicklaus did in his prime is a thrill.  Hitting 5 irons where he hit 5 irons is a thrill.  So, what's the problem other than we sentimentally want to see old courses stay the same?

Of course, my son is probably envisioning hitting 9 irons where Tiger hits nine irons today!

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Disappointing Golf Digest Articles
« Reply #39 on: March 12, 2002, 08:23:19 AM »
On reading Dan's post, I guess my question to Ron would be - is this a good topic for a point counter point debate within the pages of GD?  Could GD even go as far as a readers poll - online or other wise?

Or is the interest in the subject that limited?

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Mike Cirba

Re: Disappointing Golf Digest Articles
« Reply #40 on: March 12, 2002, 08:33:22 AM »
Do we really believe that most architects would favor reigning in technology??

Puhlease!!  They are frankly chomping at the bit to see courses lengthened, redesigned, and otherwise modified in the name of "progress".  It means more work and more money.  Simple as pie.  

What do you all think "Redesign U" of the ASGCA is about???

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Keith Williams

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Disappointing Golf Digest Articles
« Reply #41 on: March 12, 2002, 09:08:41 AM »
Lou,

I will say that I have absolutely no desire to become immersed in an off-topic conversation, but I couldn't help but question your comparison between the windmills and the Alaskan pipeline.  You essentially compared the very worst aspects of green wind power and the very best aspects of crude oil.  I feel  a somewhat more appropriate comparison should be between those unfavorable traits of wind power mentioned and the parallel worst traits of oil (see Exxon Valdez and Prince Williams Sound).  Consider those aspects and then decide which source of energy is more "benign" and deserves future research.

Keith.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Lou Duran

Re: Disappointing Golf Digest Articles
« Reply #42 on: March 12, 2002, 10:48:51 AM »
Keith-

I too would rather stay on topic, and probably shouldn't have responded to the all so cynical, intellectually dishonest claims concerning how the world works.  I know, if we could only stop those evil corporate interests, our big brother government (which after all only knows and wants what is trully best for us) would be free to ensure justice, happiness, equality, and a membership at Cypress Point for all (or none at all).  Please!

My comments about wind power and oil were not in the form of an anology.  I was just pointing out that like everything else, there pros and cons.  You tend to make a false comparison between the normal, permanent way wind power works and the extremely rare calamities which are inherent in most large energy operations.  Have you seen the pipeline and PWS?  I've been to both, post spill, and I was pleasantly surprised with what I saw.  Mother nature has tremendous recuperative powers, and the oil interest have not been shy about accepting responsibility and correcting problems.

But rather than taking my  word for it, why do you think that Alaskans are so heavily in favor of EXPANDING oil production?  They live there.  Their kids breathe the air, drink the water, enjoy the outdoors.  I guess it must be that evil human quality that drives corporations- GREED.  Without government and the pure hearted environmentalists to protect our health and our families what would we do?  After all, the only thing us neandarthals care about is money (maybe sex, golf and booze, too).  Right?  

Sorry, I disagree.  Wind and solar power will become a reality when they can be shown to produce energy efficiently and in sufficient quantities.   To date that hasn't happened, and if I was an officer of an oil company, I would be less than sangunie about the proposition that my livelyhood should be taxed further to develop an alternative product which would drive me out of business.  It would not be in my self interest, and if I may suggest, it would not be in yours either.

    
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Scott_Burroughs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Disappointing Golf Digest Articles
« Reply #43 on: March 12, 2002, 11:04:54 AM »
Mike C,
    The ASGCA web site has several articles contrary to that fact here: http://www.asgca.org

The articles talk about "reigning in distance to save the game" in some manner.  The one article talks about how increased distance translates into increased green fees.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike Cirba

Re: Disappointing Golf Digest Articles
« Reply #44 on: March 12, 2002, 11:17:53 AM »
Scott,

Please excuse my cynicism, but to borrow from a subthread here, it reminds me of hearing the oil industry claiming to support full R&D to develop cheaper, more efficient energy sources than fossil fuels.

The facts remain that the number of new courses being built has stagnated.  The facts remain that redesign, restoration, reclamation, or whatever term is being used is one of the major areas that architects rely on financially.  I can't say I blame them one bit, but it's a bit of a conflict of interest here.  

If even 10% of the existing courses in the US decide that they need to be lengthened to remain competitive against the technological onslaught, that translates to 1,800 new jobs to be divvied up.

Factor in the percentage who decide on other forms of redesign and modernization (as opposed to technologically based), and is it any wonder that the ASGCA has publicized and pushed their "Remodel U"?

Yes, the stance published on their website is very politically correct.  

Perhaps they should also sign a voluntary moratorium to refuse work that just aims to make existing golf courses more challenging through increased length.  Then, I'll believe their website and other pronouncements as heartfelt.        

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Scott_Burroughs

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Re: Disappointing Golf Digest Articles
« Reply #45 on: March 12, 2002, 11:28:48 AM »
Mike, There's two main parts of the distance thing, remodeling/lengthening and building new courses that are longer.  New courses are still being built, just not at the 80's/90's boom rate.  Just go to the NGF web site of courses under construction.  The ASGCA's stance is probably aimed more at the second part, where longer courses mean higher costs for just about everything, which they're opposed to, versus remodeling, which they're doing for clubs who probably aren't increasing the acreage of their grounds much, if at all.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tom MacWood (Guest)

Re: Disappointing Golf Digest Articles
« Reply #46 on: March 12, 2002, 11:32:01 AM »
I don't care about the average golfer. I don't care about the professional golfer. I really don't want to hit it where Jack hit it in his prime (hell I'd guess Jack is not pleased he is hitting past his prime today).  I'm not concerned with equipment manufacturers or the USGA or the R&A or even the ASGCA. My very narrow focus is on great golf courses and great works of golf architecture and saving, protecting and restoring them for my own selfish enjoyment, but also for future generations and for the future of golf design. And in the long run, it is my opinion that protecting golf architecture is best for the greater game. Based on that I'd like to think those who love the game and golf architecture from all corners could get together and work this out.

I'm very pleased to hear Jeff Brauer state that there courses or important works that should be protected from the old guys to the modern architects like Tom Fazio. I agree completely, my only quarel would be the method, I would prefer not to force or legislate, and would prefer that it would be voluntary if possible. I would hope an atmosphere could be developed that makes volunatary compliance the only wise direction for these courses and a direction that these clubs would be proud to go.

In some ways it is unfortunate that this discusion of protecting great architecture centers around ANGG, there is so little left. In many ways the course is already a lost cause and is a terrible example of protection and preservation. Of what is remaining, it sickens me to read that the 13th green can moved and the stream can be replicated perfectly 30 or 40 yards farther down the way. I don't believe that that stream - which is really the greatest natural feature of the course - can be replicated in any way. I have seen so called natural man-made streams at Muirfield Village and Shadow Creek and they ain't even close.

I don't think the Haskel ball is a good example of what is happening today. How many great works of golf architecture were effected by the Haskel, hell how many golf courses were there in the world when the haskel was developed - not many. The truth is the haskel in some ways led to the develpoment of golf architecture. Park, Fowler and Colt were creating the art as the new ball was being introduced - in fact they really took advantage of the circumstances. But the few courses that existed at that time were not very good relative to what was to come, with less than a handful of exceptions. Ironically these men helped perfect many of these lesser courses in response to the equipment changes and they are now rightfully heralded as the great ancient links.

In contrast today we have 100 years of great works to protect. The arguement against the ball then was more philosophical - should the game be made easier. Today that question is still valid, but add to it the large number of great works that are being effected and will be effected in the future. If you have no desire to protect great works, if you really don't love golf architecture or the histroy of the art or you have other motivations than I could see why you wouldn't care and would call it progress. That is why I'm perplexed by some of the comments.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Rick Shefchik

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Re: Disappointing Golf Digest Articles
« Reply #47 on: March 12, 2002, 12:02:26 PM »
Of all the wise words in Dan Kelly's reply to Ron Whitten, the passage I liked best was the one about "progress."

Isn't it possible that certain art forms, certain architectural styles and -- yes -- certain games reach a more or less ideal size, shape or form? The chessboard hasn't changed in hundreds of years. Hockey is still played on the same sized sheet of ice. Baseball parks are actually being built now to replicate the parks of 100 years ago.

How can this be possible, if we equate progress with change?

It's possible because major league baseball does not allow Jason Giambi, in the name of progress, to use an aluminum bat, or allow the Tampa Bay Devil Rays, in the name of progress, to supply their own juiced-up baseballs to score more runs. There's an understood interest in keeping the dimensions of the game the same as they've been for generations, for the aesthetics and continuity of the game. 90 feet between bases and 60 feet 6 inches from the mound to home plate weren't always the standard in baseball, but once those formulas were arrived at, it was discovered that they worked beautifully, and baseball has seen no need to change. In fact, just the opposite: they restrict equipment to preserve these distances.

As has been pointed out on this thread, the analogy here is between other regulated pro sports and professional golf, not the game that most of us play. But I have little doubt that, should the PGA Tour institute a competition ball, most of us on this site would play it. I believe most of us like golf at the length it is now, and would gladly submit to equipment restrictions that preserved the 400-yard par 4 and the 580-yard par five. Anyone who would enjoy the game more with a hot ball that allowed them to play those 580-yard par fives with a driver and a nine iron would be welcome to, in my opinion. Just not in a tournament against me.

 

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:03 PM by -1 »
"Golf is 20 percent mechanics and technique. The other 80 percent is philosophy, humor, tragedy, romance, melodrama, companionship, camaraderie, cussedness and conversation." - Grantland Rice

Kevin_Reilly

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Re: Disappointing Golf Digest Articles
« Reply #48 on: March 12, 2002, 12:12:56 PM »
I agree that many players would play the competition ball.  An analogous situation is the number of higher handicap players who don't avail themselves of the help provided by perimeter weighted, low COG irons and woods.  I frequently see bogey golfers using forged blades or cavity backs with nominal forgiveness characteristics.  I assume that many use these because they enjoy the challenge or the traditional look, or because they want to feel that they are using the clubs used by players at the highest level.  I would guess that many would use the competition ball for the same reason.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"GOLF COURSES SHOULD BE ENJOYED RATHER THAN RATED" - Tom Watson

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Disappointing Golf Digest Articles
« Reply #49 on: March 12, 2002, 12:23:01 PM »
Tom MacWood -

I hope I don't dissapoint you to tell you that the stream on 13 has already been altered a few times, both to rasie the water level into a pond, and then back to a babbling brook.  I don't know, but I wouldn't be surprised if their was a pump somewhere to insure that flow was "perfect" for tv.  There is virtually nothing left at Augusta.

AFter 100 years of changes, there are very few courses passably the same as before.  I suggested that someone pick those best few - voluntarily as you suggest - that feel they could happily exist in that state, a la Prestwick.

Mike Cirba,

If I may flatter myself by making the questionable assumption that I run an "average" architectural firm, I would like to clue you into the profit situation for designers.  I usually keep tabs of both hours and resources expended on various projects.  A few years ago, I calculated that while spending about half my time on renovations, they only accounted for about one quarter of my annual revenue.  In other words, they are no profit center.  They fill in around the edges and pay the bills. Period.

I have reviewed the 80 or so renovations of various scales that we have worked on regarding length.  In my current renovation project, I was asked to stretch to course from 6985 to over 7000 yards (7005 to be exact) for marketing purposes.  I can recall no other renovation where adding significant length was a major driver of a project.  most courses are so landlocked, that its not feasible anyway.

Far and away, courses remodel when greens, tees, bunkers, or fairways deteriorate or have drainage or irrigation problems to the point where they must be rebuilt.  Based on my experience, its not 10% of courses remodelled to add length, its one per cent.  If I am typical, your comments are so far off base, you'd be picked off by a 8 year old catcher!

I cannot recall an instance where a golf architect has persuaded a club to do something that is in only his interest of collecting a fee.  They come to us and we help them with their percieved problems.  If their views on their course don't coincide with this groups, well that happens.  They do what is best for them, and unless we presume that everyone who owns or is a member of a golf course is just a plain ignoramous, I think they, as we all do, have a knack of doing what's right.

Net, Net, there is no real financial incentive for golf architects no matter what the new clubs and balls do.

Rick -

I suppose its possible that our art form peak and has diminished.  But if you have ever heard "If youre not moving forward, or you are just standing still, you are really going backwards" I believe that is more applicable.  How do we know we are at the pinnacle?  If we thought that in the 60's, and tried to legislate golf design to what "was known to be the pinnacle" then we would not have the joy of Pete Dye.  It is a huge mistake to think that there are no new ideas.  It is a bigger mistake to encourage no new ideas, just because some come up wanting.


I believe that it is human nature to consider lets say, Babe Ruth better than Jason Giambi, simply because his history has been written, and we appreciate the accomplishments.  Same with golf design.

Cheers.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

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