KENT KALEIDOSCOPE: Deal (plus changes), Princes (2017-18 Winter Tour) & Sandwich

[Jon Cavalier]

As requested, here’s the 16th at Deal:

[Adam Lawrence]

Michael/Jon — it was a pleasure to meet you. Haste ye back

[Jon Cavalier]

Thank you, Adam. Was great meeting and eating with you as well. And now that I’ve been to your neck of the woods, I will indeed make my way back with all due haste.


Best,
Jon Cavalier

[Sean_A]

I stopped in for a game at Deal a few weeks ago and saw the changes, most notably to 3, 8, 10 & 16.  There were other bunkers installed, but I will focus on the above.  In aggregate, I have to say these changes have softened the course, which is a bit surprising to me in this day of championship challenge. 

#3 has been moved well left and it has made the drive easier to skirt past the bunkers. 

#8 (a personal bugbear hole) has much better turf to the rear of the green making for a reasonable miss should the tail wind be strong. 

#10, a two large bunkers more or less in line with the green are now in place.  Many can easily carry the first bunker, few can carry the second.  The second bunker replaces a pot and what was pretty nasty rough in the area which was hit and miss.  The bunker is large enough whereby it is a reasonable expectation to have a play from it.  Previously the pot bunker, while much smaller and supported by rough, was not a great position for recovery.

#16, a left side of the fairway on high ground has been added.  If one can't reach the green in two or doesn't fancy a recovery shot to the right fairway from the left rough, it is a very reasonable play to stay left and open up the entire green, especially forward hole locations..

I must say, all four changes do soften Deal, but 8 & 16 are good changes.  #3 was a safety issue so there really isn't a need for a debate.  I am not convinced the change for 10 was good.  I rather liked the undefined fairway which is now more defined.  16 is obviously the major change, but to me, allowing another option is a great idea because it allows shorter hitters to have more of chance against those who can sometimes over-power the length of the hole. 

In my book, the changes have an overall positive effect. Whether or not the work was worth the money is another matter.

See page 1 for an updated tour.
www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,44965.msg981695.html#msg981695

Any thoughts?

Ciao

[Niall C]

Sean

In truth I'd be hard pressed to say what was new on 8 and 10 but I liked both holes and have nothing negative to say on either. The change on 3 maybe makes the drive a bit so-so but perhaps a bit of judicious bunkering might put a bit more shape into it ? As for the 16th, being a traditionalist, I played down the right (OK, I do tend to fade the ball as well). As Tony says it may well turn out to be a better hole in theory because of the added option on the left but to my eye it looks very modern in character and not quite in keeping with the other holes.

However what makes Deal so special for me is the greens. I'd pay good money just to be taken in a buggy and dropped off between 50-100 yards from the greens in pretty well any direction and play in from there. Simply great fun. Having now had the pleasure of playing the course 3 times I'm enjoying and finding it more and more interesting with each subsequent play. Surely the sign of a great course ?

Niall

[Noel Freeman]

I stopped in for a game at Deal a few weeks ago and saw the changes, most notably to 3, 8, 10 & 16.  There were other bunkers installedm but I will focus on the above.  In aggregate, I have to say these changes have softened the course, which is a bit surprising to me in this day of championship challenge. 

#3 has been moved well left and it has made the drive easier to skirt past the bunkers. 

#8 (a personal bugbear hole) has much better turf to the rear of the green making for a reasonable miss should the tail wind be strong. 

#10, a two large bunkers more or less in line with the green are now in place.  Many can easily carry the first bunker, fee can carry the second.  The second bunker replaces a pot and what was pretty nasty rough in the area which was hit and miss.  The bunker is large enough whereby it is a reasonable expectation to have a play from it.  Previously the pot bunker, while much smaller and supported by rough, was not a great position for recovery.

#16, a left side of the fairway on high ground has been added.  If one can't reach the green in two or doesn't fancy a recovery shot to the right fairway from the left rough, it is a very reasonable play to stay left and open up the entire green, especially forward hole locations..

I must say, all four changes do soften Deal, but 8 & 16 are good changes.  #3 was a safety issue so there really isn't a need for a debate.  I am not convinced the change for 10 was good.  I rather liked the undefined fairway which is now more defined.  16 is obviously the major change, but to me, alowing another option is a great idea because it allows shorter hitters to have more of chance against those who can sometimes over-power the length of the hole. 

In my book, the course has risen in my estimation!

See page 1 for an updated tour.
www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,44965.msg981695.html#msg981695

Any thoughts?

Ciao

Sean- what about the new bunker shapes, I've been more worried about them.  How do they look on the ground?  I've never seen an old pic of Deal with frilly bunkers--waste areas that were jagged yes like the old Sandy Parlour but not jagged bunkers.. So what are your thoughts there? 

[Sean_A]

Noel

To be honest, I am not sure the frilly bunkers work visually. That said, they are new and need time to set in. The one hole the bunkers really stand out is the 10th. They don't blend well with the obscured right bunkers. I am not sure why anything was done with this hole. It was brilliant as it was.

Ciao

[Noel Freeman]

Noel

To be honest, I am not sure the frilly bunkers work visually. That said, they are new and need time to set in. The one hole the bunkers really stand out is the 10th. They don't blend well with the obscured right bunkers. I am not sure why anything was done with this hole. It was brilliant as it was.

Ciao

Exactly how I feared.. I have not been in love with the pictures posted here.  Ugh..  I would never have touched 10 either.  Sir Guy Campbell singled it out for rare praise indeed whilst saying it had the quality of the blow of an Angel's wing.  The oblique shape of the hole with the rough left and deep stuff even further left where you can't find your ball were enough teeth for the hole especially with the prevailing summer wind.  The northerly is such an odd wind to play that hole in and makes it even more of a devil.  I've thought the southwesterly can actually help a long hitter get the ball close the green with a push draw.


Regardless, I'm a little sad b/c I like the optionality on 16 and 3 I have no issue with.  Ive hit some good shots with the wind over my left shoulder that leaked right and found on stones near the walking path on top of the sea wall.  Then again I've also hit some balls over Lang's Neck (the ridge) from that tea and I don't think that is really possible now.


This will be the first year in 20 years I will not visit Deal so very sad.


I blame Russell Talley who is like Godot these days.  Where art thou Jazz Fuzioner?  Without Russell my love for Deal might never been born.  We spent much time studying 6 and 10 which are a master class in fun, interesting short par 4s..  It doesn't hurt that Russell was tending the flag when I flipped a 60 degree in for my first Eagle ever on 10 in 2000..

[Mark Chaplin]

Scott I forgot to say the master plan RCP has worked off was started by Donald Steel.


Sean nothing has changed on 8, better maintenance is producing better turf. I probably haven’t been directly over the back of 8 in two or three years as the ball tends to go long left on the breeze if over hit. I’d estimate less than 100-1 balls goes straight long. As I’ve said before if you cannot stop a 9 iron in 40 yards stop playing rocks!


The first bunker you refer to on the 10th used to have a 4’-5’ revetted wall it’s around 160yds off the men’s tee and 130yds off the ladies so gets lots of attention from lesser players and often made the hole pretty much unplayable if they got in it. They made it frilly around 5 years ago and more playable for the weaker player. The left bunker used to be two deep pots set in the dune, the left one was filled in long before I joined, the new bunker joins these together and is also shaggy so you can reach the green from it. The rough past the bunker in line with the green has been turned into fairway, longer hitters are now more tempted to take on the green in the right conditions. The 3rd and 16th are both 30-40 yards longer off the yellow tees, making them proper par 5s.


Noel the area between the tee and green on the 4th will never be scrapped out. It spends most of the winter under water and is home to some rare orchids.


Work continues at pace at Princes, despite having a small greenkeeping team compared to Deal and especially RSG they have another big winter programme of improvements, the new par 3 5th on the Shore is looking very nice and will open in the new year replacing 8th Shore. That tee was in a pinch point close to the green of 7th Shore on one side and 1st Dunes on the other. 6th Dunes has a new raised back tee, shaped and ready for turfing. The shaper is currently building a dune between 7 Shore and 7 Dunes, this should define both holes better. I believe 8 Himalayas maybe losing the water on the left of the fairway, if so this is a good move.


RSG has plenty of bunker revetting work in progress, they are now on mats for the fairways and semi rough as they concentrate on turf quality for next years Open.


All three courses seem to be attracting more wildlife, hopefully better land management and less chemicals, whilst making the course managers jobs harder, are having a benefit to wildlife.

[Ben Stephens]

Scott I forgot to say the master plan RCP has worked off was started by Donald Steel.


Sean nothing has changed on 8, better maintenance is producing better turf. I probably haven’t been directly over the back of 8 in two or three years as the ball tends to go long left on the breeze if over hit. I’d estimate less than 100-1 balls goes straight long. As I’ve said before if you cannot stop a 9 iron in 40 yards stop playing rocks!


The first bunker you refer to on the 10th used to have a 4’-5’ revetted wall it’s around 160yds off the men’s tee and 130yds off the ladies so gets lots of attention from lesser players and often made the hole pretty much unplayable if they got in it. They made it frilly around 5 years ago and more playable for the weaker player. The left bunker used to be two deep pots set in the dune, the left one was filled in long before I joined, the new bunker joins these together and is also shaggy so you can reach the green from it. The rough past the bunker in line with the green has been turned into fairway, longer hitters are now more tempted to take on the green in the right conditions. The 3rd and 16th are both 30-40 yards longer off the yellow tees, making them proper par 5s.


Noel the area between the tee and green on the 4th will never be scrapped out. It spends most of the winter under water and is home to some rare orchids.


Work continues at pace at Princes, despite having a small greenkeeping team compared to Deal and especially RSG they have another big winter programme of improvements, the new par 3 5th on the Shore is looking very nice and will open in the new year replacing 8th Shore. That tee was in a pinch point close to the green of 7th Shore on one side and 1st Dunes on the other. 6th Dunes has a new raised back tee, shaped and ready for turfing. The shaper is currently building a dune between 7 Shore and 7 Dunes, this should define both holes better. I believe 8 Himalayas maybe losing the water on the left of the fairway, if so this is a good move.


RSG has plenty of bunker revetting work in progress, they are now on mats for the fairways and semi rough as they concentrate on turf quality for next years Open.


All three courses seem to be attracting more wildlife, hopefully better land management and less chemicals, whilst making the course managers jobs harder, are having a benefit to wildlife.

Chappers


No brainer to fill in the water on the left of the 8th on Himalayas at Princes - it was an overkill in the first place. Plus the other works they seem to be doing sounds an improvement to the course.


Cheers
Ben

[Sean_A]

Chappers

Do you know if there are plans to add water to Shore /Dunes as was done to Hims?

Happy Hockey

[Ally Mcintosh]

Adam’s mag just reported on winter works to build a large containment dune on one of the Princes nines.... they have to get the fill from somewhere so these water features tend to result in tandem.

[Jeff Schley]

Not to take the focus off of the other holes discussed, but the 6th at Deal is one of my favorites. I have hit onto the rocks (and left my partner frustrated) with my approach, as well as stuck a 9 iron close.  In the two days I was there earlier this year that Chappers knows of, the conditions didn't allow, however do people go for that green and hold it from the tee?  I imagine the wind has to be favorable to allow it.

[Mark Chaplin]

Sean I’m not aware of any water hazards being built at Princes, there is a pond well to the rear of the 6th Shore tee, as was said earlier if you take sand the hole is likely to fill with water.


Jeff the 6th is hit regularly, I’ve only seen it hit once in person by James Bledge the Course Manager. The green wouldn’t hold a long shot so the ball needs to pitch into the bank and pop up onto the green. As hundreds of weak approaches over the year testify the ball rarely pops up nicely!

[Michael Felton]

Sean I’m not aware of any water hazards being built at Princes, there is a pond well to the rear of the 6th Shore tee, as was said earlier if you take sand the hole is likely to fill with water.


Jeff the 6th is hit regularly, I’ve only seen it hit once in person by James Bledge the Course Manager. The green wouldn’t hold a long shot so the ball needs to pitch into the bank and pop up onto the green. As hundreds of weak approaches over the year testify the ball rarely pops up nicely!

Quite often downwind, the shot is driver even though you have no chance of holding the green. The pitch from over the back is into the wind and pitching into the upslope with that bank stopping the ball. Pitching from short of the green downwind it's virtually impossible to hold the green. Much more sensible to be pitching back for your second shot than your third. Just don't hit it on the beach!

[Tony_Muldoon]

Sean I’m not aware of any water hazards being built at Princes, there is a pond well to the rear of the 6th Shore tee, as was said earlier if you take sand the hole is likely to fill with water.


Jeff the 6th is hit regularly, I’ve only seen it hit once in person by James Bledge the Course Manager. The green wouldn’t hold a long shot so the ball needs to pitch into the bank and pop up onto the green. As hundreds of weak approaches over the year testify the ball rarely pops up nicely!

Quite often downwind, the shot is driver even though you have no chance of holding the green. The pitch from over the back is into the wind and pitching into the upslope with that bank stopping the ball. Pitching from short of the green downwind it's virtually impossible to hold the green. Much more sensible to be pitching back for your second shot than your third. Just don't hit it on the beach!

Thus spake the lang whanger! 


In the right conditions I've also heard of 2 and 10 as being driveable!!!! 


I once hit Driver onto 14.

[Noel Freeman]

Sean I’m not aware of any water hazards being built at Princes, there is a pond well to the rear of the 6th Shore tee, as was said earlier if you take sand the hole is likely to fill with water.


Jeff the 6th is hit regularly, I’ve only seen it hit once in person by James Bledge the Course Manager. The green wouldn’t hold a long shot so the ball needs to pitch into the bank and pop up onto the green. As hundreds of weak approaches over the year testify the ball rarely pops up nicely!

Paul Turner and I both drove the 6th in successive drives from the stones on a warm summer day.  The wind was a tad bid more westerly than the normal SW one.  We both hit gentle fades that banked into the wind and left about 10-14 feet for Eagle.


Thankfully I sunk that putt.  In my experience most long drives on 6 straighten out with the backing wind. and leave you long if you hit is well in the rough for a near impossible up and down.  Ive only played Deal once into an easterly and came close to driving 6 by aiming at the pebble beach.  Don't think I'll ever have that shot again.

[Michael Felton]

Sean I’m not aware of any water hazards being built at Princes, there is a pond well to the rear of the 6th Shore tee, as was said earlier if you take sand the hole is likely to fill with water.


Jeff the 6th is hit regularly, I’ve only seen it hit once in person by James Bledge the Course Manager. The green wouldn’t hold a long shot so the ball needs to pitch into the bank and pop up onto the green. As hundreds of weak approaches over the year testify the ball rarely pops up nicely!

Quite often downwind, the shot is driver even though you have no chance of holding the green. The pitch from over the back is into the wind and pitching into the upslope with that bank stopping the ball. Pitching from short of the green downwind it's virtually impossible to hold the green. Much more sensible to be pitching back for your second shot than your third. Just don't hit it on the beach!

Thus spake the lang whanger! 


In the right conditions I've also heard of 2 and 10 as being driveable!!!! 


I once hit Driver onto 14.

10 is doable, but I've never seen anyone close to 2. I think you'd have to get all the right bounces on the right day to do it. I've seen people closer to 7 than 2. Maybe that's because I normally hit the evens. I've hit driver on 14 before as well. On at least one occasion, I came up well short doing so. The wind can get pretty crazy there at times. I've hit both 3 iron and wedge on both 4 and 8 and pretty much everything from driver to 6 iron on 14.

[Mark Chaplin]

I’ve hit 10 myself with a running draw on the breeze. I’ve seen 2, 7 and 11 driven and know a chap who once hit the 17th

[Michael Felton]

I’ve hit 10 myself with a running draw on the breeze. I’ve seen 2, 7 and 11 driven and know a chap who once hit the 17th

17 is ridiculous. I could just about see 9 being doable and even 12 with the right conditions and the right player.

[Mark Chaplin]

Michael I asked the clubs longest hitter and he said he’d reached it once off the back tee. Nowadays with the right wind and concrete fairways 400 yards is achievable by the very long hitters. We watched mid handicap ladies getting 70-80 yards of run at St Andrews last year.

[Michael Felton]

Michael I asked the clubs longest hitter and he said he’d reached it once off the back tee. Nowadays with the right wind and concrete fairways 400 yards is achievable by the very long hitters. We watched mid handicap ladies getting 70-80 yards of run at St Andrews last year.

17? It's the lay of the land there that makes it so hard. To my recollection there just isn't anything about the front of 17 that seems conducive to a ball rolling onto it. That's not even allowing for the cross bunkers, which would be a hell of a carry. From the back tee it looks like a little over 330 yards carry. There are people out there who can do that (not many), but even then you'd need a perfect bounce and roll. I guess I'm also so used to playing that hole into the wind that it just doesn't occur to me that it might be possible. At least 12 the ball will funnel down towards the green if it's rolling.

[Mark Chaplin]

Michael carry the bunker and hit the downslope the ball will easily make the green, I hit one of my best shots in years using the downslope of the bunker to reach the green from a bad lie.