[Sean_A]

Whitty

Do ya think cutting rough down the right rough brings the danger of the road more into play?  I spose golfers could try to be more aware of traffic, but if something were to happen...I spose a few bunkers could be slapped in over there...I am very surprised Doc would want to see the road brought more into play.

Why not widen the fairway left?  The way the green is situated, it doesn't make much difference which angle one approaches from.

Scott - I too noticed the grass a bit longer behind #4 and it seemed as though the right side of the green was less punishing - not a bad place to miss.

Ciao

[Ally Mcintosh]

Do ya think cutting rough down the right rough brings the danger of the road more into play?

And there you have it...

[Robin_Hiseman]

I was thinking more a couple of gang widths down the left, not the right.  Tough to see the drive finish around the corner if the last hop is into the thick stuff, which is very thick indeed on the lower ground.  They'd find my Pro V if they did! 

Wouldn't want to encourage play towards the road.

[Michael Whitaker]

Hmm... the ground is a bit squirrelly on the left as you get past the 18th green. Perhaps a wider left cut on the first half of the hole followed by a wider cut on the right after the turnaround in front of the house. It is just a shame that everyone is forced to either play the hole from basically the same position in the fairway or pitch out of the hay.

I would also like to see the jungle along the edges of the burn closely cropped so that depth perception on the second shot would be a little more unnerving.

[Scott Warren]

The road gets very little traffic, so I don't see that being too great a problem.

Balls that will carry onto the road already will get there (or onto the clubhouse balcony in Chappers' brother's case!). Cutting to fairway height would see a few more trickle onto the road, but no more an issue that the 18th at TOC, with much less vehicle and pedestrian traffic at Deal than at St Andrews.

[Mark Chaplin]

About a thousand vehicles a day, no exactly quiet!

[Scott Warren]

Seriously?!

[Mark Chaplin]

Yep we used a vehicle counter on the road. Add the horses and the fact it's also national cycle route 1 and its no sleepy track.

[Mark Chaplin]

Sean - your picture from the "plateau short of 15" is actually from the top of the bunkers on 17.

I still do not get 8 being unfair, on the rare times its straight down wind (westerly) there are 39 yards from the front edge to the back edge and the last few yards slope gently in the players favour. If a reasonable player cannot stop an 8, 9 or wedge in 30 yards he has more problems than 8 at RCP. Deal tests the aerial game three times in a round on 1, 4 and 8, these holes face in three different directions so only one shot is ever likely to be downwind. The 1st is 44 yards deep and the 4th around 35 yards with a simple bailout offered.

I'm interested in your assessment of 14, needing more room to the right. This displays a lack of understanding of the challenge on many holes at Deal. The play on 14 is to favour the left side of the green, if you miss you have a shot into the breeze and a green slanted in your favour. Miss right and your downwind over traps to a green running away. Giving more room down the right doesnt assist the player. The quality of RCP is in the demands on the second shot, get wrong sided and you can ring up a score (far to) easily.

[Sean_A]

Chappers

I didn't say #8 was unfair and I don't think it is.  I think given 20mph downwind or wind quartering from the right the hole doesn't offer enough space.  You say the green is 39 yards long and that isn't the part which bothers me - though it would be nice on such a tough shot to be able to see the landing zone/bunkers.  My beef is when the shot is hit long one can easily end up in a rocky lie.  That isn't on so far as I am concerned.  I end up aiming left side to an already narrow green to have a better shot at a clean lie when the ball goes long.  Why doesn't the club clean the rear of the green up?  It doesn't make any sense to me for a guy to play from rocks when he hasn't hit a bad shot and is only 10-15 yards off a green with a bank to the rear shedding the ball away.  

My beef with #14 is we are in the middle of what can be an awful slog if the wind is up.  Then, instead of offering something a bit different, the course asks for another long approach.  Shortening the hole effectively widens it because in theory folks are more accurate with less club. Coming in from the right half gently moves left because of wind and the slope of the green.  Plus, to the rear is a nice bank which will contain a slightly aggressive shot and thus leave putter in the hand for the second. Its  not a flag hunting tactic, but I think its a sound tactic for me. A shot missed left can bring in all sorts of horrible rough into play.  I would rather play from sand than that.  The bunkers have excellent sand so are not overly difficult to recover from.  I don't have an issue with bunkers on the wind direction side of the hole at all.  Its a nice break from the usual of bunkers on the far side of the wind direction.  Bottom line, I think its a better hole for the daily course from 170 rather than 200 yards.  

Brian

In theory I agree with you.  You in practice, its a no go.  I can't imagine Deal opening up the right especially as they are fully aware of the amount of traffic on the road.  A bouncing ball can do some damage - I know.  That rough down the right really does it job of stopping balls.  

I too really liked Seacroft's 7th - great use of the road, but I think its a bit easier to keep track of cars there than at Deal.  Remember, its not just the road, its the parking lot as well.  How does one watch the road and the lot and is the lot ever clear of people on it, entering or leaving it?  In truth, I am surprised the club doesn't sell insurance with the green fee.

Ciao    

[Ally Mcintosh]

Lads,

If I may be so bold to give my opinion of widening the first despite having never visited the course...

I don't know of an architect who would willingly take that hole nearer to the road on the right whether it has 10 cars or 1,000 cars travelling through it every day. Whilst Brian's reason that shots heading that way would hit the road anyway - regardless of it being rough or fairway - may seem to make sense, it is actually more to do with changing the centreline of the tee shot to the right if the fairway is moved, hence aligning golfers more to the right...

Robin said he was talking about a couple of gang mower widths to the left... From the aerial, the 18th green looks quite close to the left as well... Having been on the ground, he'd know better than I if this could cause a problem... Maybe one width left and one right might be OK?

Still, I can see why the hole plays narrow because of the reasons above... Sometimes strategy / playability and golf unfortunately have to take a back seat to common sense with safety....

[Mark Chaplin]

Sean - 14 has a very smart tee and you used it so the option is there.

Ally - I'd move the first fairway left, it's no where near the 18th green. The hole is plenty wide enough, it's sub 400 yards and a 3 wood leaves a short iron. As I wrote earlier 10 of 12 extra hole matches in the Amateur were decided at the 19th.

It needs to be remembered Deal is a match play club, 4 of our 6 major member weekends are match play, the Halford Hewitt is match play as is the Grand Match. Those who want a card and pencil to go with a five hour 4 ball need not apply!

[Brent Hutto]

Just out of curiosity and cussedness I'm wondering if there's a single club in USA with the sort of match-play culture that Mark describes at Deal. It's not universal in the UK I know but it seems pretty common among the small subset of clubs I'm familiar with.

Can anyone point out an example of a USA club where a card-and-pencil fourball going out on a regular basis for a play it down, putt it out, just like they do it on TV slog would be seen as not in keeping with the spirit of the club?

[Mark Chaplin]

For those who've not visited Deal for a couple of years the course has come along leaps and bounds under James Bledge. The fairways have generally not been widened but the playing corridors have. Much of the improvement is agronomical along with improved green keeping skills.

The 1st has had the thick rough cut back 20-25yards on the left, making the left side of the fairway the safer line.

The sea wall has yet to be removed at the back of the 8th.

13 has a new back tee just outside the hut making it 480'ish.

16 is now the world's worst par 4. Long with a "short par 5" green.

[Niall C]

"16 is now the world's worst par 4. Long with a "short par 5" green."

Not being facetious but that sounds like it might be quite good. A wee bit of unfairness just to challenge the orthodox way of thinking.

Niall

[Adam Lawrence]

I normally don't give a damn about par changes, but I do think moving the tee forward slightly to make Deal 16 a par four has ruined one of the greatest holes in England. A mate of mine made a 3 on the hole during the architects' study tour last month and I was shocked. Hitting that green in two should require a career shot. Terrible decision by the club.

[Niall C]

Adam


As a matter of interest, do you know if they were advised on that change ?


Niall

[Adam Lawrence]

I believe they were advised quite strongly against it!

[Mark Chaplin]

Adam the R&A played the 16th hole just under 500yds in the amateur and FQ as a 4. Personally I think the tee of the day should have gone back to 510 par 5 and leave the championship tee forward as a 4. For members it now just another 440 par 4 on the back nine, it's not played less than an average of 5 for members all summer and is the hardest hole on the course.

Not sure who "advised against it" other than me! As the R&A encouraged it's use as a par 4.

[Scott Warren]

Adam the R&A played the 16th hole just under 500yds in the amateur and FQ as a 4. Personally I think the tee of the day should have gone back to 510 par 5 and leave the championship tee forward as a 4. For members it now just another 440 par 4 on the back nine, it's not played less than an average of 5 for members all summer and is the hardest hole on the course.

Not sure who "advised against it" other than me! As the R&A encouraged it's use as a par 4.

Is there still a tee you can use near the 15th green to play the 16th?

If not, I'd be half tempted to just tee the ball up to the left of the 15th green and play from there.

[Bill_McBride]

Adam the R&A played the 16th hole just under 500yds in the amateur and FQ as a 4. Personally I think the tee of the day should have gone back to 510 par 5 and leave the championship tee forward as a 4. For members it now just another 440 par 4 on the back nine, it's not played less than an average of 5 for members all summer and is the hardest hole on the course.

Not sure who "advised against it" other than me! As the R&A encouraged it's use as a par 4.

Is there still a tee you can use near the 15th green to play the 16th?

If not, I'd be half tempted to just tee the ball up to the left of the 15th green and play from there.

Seems to me it's a much better 540 yard par 5 than a 440 yard par 4.  Just like I think #3 is a much better 420 yard par 4 than 500 yard par 5.  It evens out. 

[Tony_Muldoon]

Adam the R&A played the 16th hole just under 500yds in the amateur and FQ as a 4. Personally I think the tee of the day should have gone back to 510 par 5 and leave the championship tee forward as a 4. For members it now just another 440 par 4 on the back nine, it's not played less than an average of 5 for members all summer and is the hardest hole on the course.

Not sure who "advised against it" other than me! As the R&A encouraged it's use as a par 4.

Is there still a tee you can use near the 15th green to play the 16th?

If not, I'd be half tempted to just tee the ball up to the left of the 15th green and play from there.

 
Hi Scott.  The old tees remain.

[Scott Warren]

Well in that case I just calmed down a lot about the change!

[Bryan Izatt]

A couple of months ago after playing Royal Worlington and Newmarket, I came across the following on the wall of their clubhouse.  I presume that Deal has a copy, but I thought it interesting enough to post (poor quality though the picture is).  Seems Deal had some pretty high profile admirers back in the early 20th century.  A closeup of the course layout follows.  Some scrolling is required.

[Mark Chaplin]

We have the original.

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