KENT KALEIDOSCOPE: Deal (plus changes), Princes (2017-18 Winter Tour) & Sandwich

[Adam Lawrence]

I'm always surprised by the number of people who say the eighth is weak. The hole looks like it belongs at Muirfield to me, and that's rarely a bad thing.

[Sean_A]

Adam

The 8th is a great opportunity to control ball run-out as a downwindish hole, but the bunker scheme makes this nearly impossible (very similar to St Enodoc's 8th!).  There is so little room for a run-up and from the right tee the left bunker can't be seen. 

Scott

I look at the wind issue a bit differently.  As a minor championship course its not a huge issue to beat back from the 12th.  Thats part and parcel of championship golf and so I wouldn't tick too much off the quality for that. For instance, I think Deal is better than Muirfield despite Muirfield having a huge advantage with its routing, but Deal has a huge advantage with its terrain being far more interesting.  Its just my personal preference not to have a wind situation like Deal has and to me its a major flaw.  So from this perspective its difficult to count Deal among my favourites even though it is a very good course with a lot of compelling shots. 

Ciao

[Mark Chaplin]

8th weak......hmmm.

It's one of only two holes on the course where you have to carry your ball onto the green, however the green is long so there is plenty of room to stop the ball even downwind - as is the first green.

From the "new" back tee the green is set at an angle to the tee and there is a very subtle slope onto the green from the far righthand bunker, with this slope and the left greenside bunkers the idea shot is a slightly cut medium to short iron. Find the green and you can be left with a 30 yard putt.

The 8th is a wonderfully subtle hole, not everyone will get it!

[Mark Pearce]

For all those suggesting that the out and back routing is a weakness, how would you route a golf course on a narrow strip of land?

I'm with Chappers on 8, I just don't see how it can be described as weak.  Other than that, I pretty much agree with Scott.

Much as I love Deal, though, I can't buy Sean's suggestion that it's a better course than Muirfield!

[Sean_A]

8th weak......hmmm.

It's one of only two holes on the course where you have to carry your ball onto the green, however the green is long so there is plenty of room to stop the ball even downwind - as is the first green.

From the "new" back tee the green is set at an angle to the tee and there is a very subtle slope onto the green from the far righthand bunker, with this slope and the left greenside bunkers the idea shot is a slightly cut medium to short iron. Find the green and you can be left with a 30 yard putt.

The 8th is a wonderfully subtle hole, not everyone will get it!

Chappers

Its not a matter of getting it.  Its a matter of not enough room to cope with a decent wind.  I wasn't even close to holding the green Sunday with a well struckshot landing on the front of the green - certainly short of a slightly forward hole location.  I don't know where my ball would have ended up if the sea wall wasn't there - tee hee.  Though to be fair, if the area behind the green was cleaned up a bit and the sea wall more gradually graded I wouldn't mind so much not being able to hold the green.  There would be a decent opportunity to run one back for a good chance at par.  Unfortunately, my ball was hung up in pebbles and dirt making a recovery (and preventing club damage) a dicey matter.  

Ciao

[Mark Chaplin]

Sounds like you must have been using a ball as hard as a pebble. 

[Scott Warren]

My issues with 8 are along the same lines as Sean.

The green is nigh on impossible to hold downwind. I disagree with Chaplin's claim to the contrary.

I have hit and seen plenty of fine short iron and wedge shots that landed in the front third and finished on the back edge of the green or over it altogether.

Without an option for landing it short, I think that is a pretty big flaw. In all other winds it's a good hole, but wind helping on that hole is reasonably common.

Let's face it - that being my biggest issue goes to show what a fantastic golf course it is.

[James Boon]

I'm always surprised there is so much criticism of playing into a similar wind for give or take 9 holes on an out and back routing. Maybe that's because Deal, Burnham, Brora and North Berwick are all firm favourites of mine and I see the mental challenge of the same wind all part of it?

Cheers,

James

[Sean_A]

Sounds like you must have been using a ball as hard as a pebble. 

Chappers, maybe you are right!  I am no expert on equipment, but I suspect a Srixon Soft Feel is not the best ball to play that hole with.  One of the great things about golf in Britain is the ball type can be switched (something still quite alien to me as I grew up with a single ball type rule and so always carried the same type) and I will be sure to play the softest ball in me bag next time.  

Scott

Yes, Deal is a lovely course with (so far as I can tell) a very good membership.  Plus, spending a few days there with a member is about as good a bargain as one could hope for.  I was pleasantly surprised by the quality of the dormie house after being led to believe it was less than adequate.  Other than the odd siituation of a bedroom doubling as a hallway (but as that section of the house is rented as a single unit it doesn't matter much), I found the accomodation more than adequate.  Our lunch on Sunday was very fine.  The members of Deal have a lot to be proud of, not least of which is the course.  

Ciao

[Mark Chaplin]

The 8th green is 39 yards long and the bunker is 3 or 4 yards short of the green. Only twice in the round are you required to carry the ball to the green. There is plenty of space as the 1st is over 40 yards deep and the 8th 39 yards. Surely this is testing every aspect of the game even if it is a generous test unless hard downwind?

Take away the ditch on the 1st and the front bunker on the 8th and everyone will moan any hacker can nob the ball onto every green.

[Scott Warren]

That being so, Mark, the 1st green has those great ridges running through it that help to stop the ball when the hole is downwind.

The 8th green, in contrast, just has a very, very slight back to front slope.

There's also the fact that downwind you're likely to have no more than 80 yards to the 1st green, while, regardless of the wind, you're playing from about 140-155 yards at the 8th.

And while you can bounce or run a ball onto the 7th and 17th greens, in reality they're greens that really lend themselves to an aerial approach. Especially 17, the slopes in front don't lend themselves to a running ball at all.

[Sean_A]

Chappers

The first green is a low lyer encompassing some of the lush turf in the area which isn't as keen as the 8th.  The hole also plays across or into the wind.  Its a totally different situation from #8.  To give you an idea of how keen the 8th was, Whitty bounced his tee shot over the second bunker on the right.  I don't know what he hit, but mine was dead straight at the hole and I hit a wedge with the tee marker at about 150.  So my wedge went about 180ish with the backstop seawall stopping it a bit.   I could have hit a perfectly placed tee shot just covering the bunkers and my ball would have gone long.  Thats not a problem if the recovery isn't too harsh, but to hit the shot I did, then end up in pebbles and dirt for my troubles is not what I would call good design.  That said, I can accept a bad break and it didn't worry me to have to play a half topped shot recovery.  Shit happens in golf, but I wouldn't be pleased if that happened to me with any sort of regularity as being long there suggests may be the outcome.

BTW  A 40 yard deep green prevailing downwind on a links sounds awfully short to me and it would be something if I saw on paper I would question.

Ciao  

[Mark Chaplin]

Sean - OK I'll accept what your saying other than the pebble wall is bad design. needless to say the sea wall was built about 80 years after the 8th by the government and not the golf club! Whilst shorter the Postage Stamp is far more severe short and long (and side to side!!) and the green is only 30 yards long.

Scott - 17 is a runner every time, pitch the ball left into the upslope, I cannot recall ever deliberately pitching onto the green during the season.

[Sean_A]

Chappers

I didn't intend to suggest the wall itself is bad design.  It is what it is.  I wouldn't mind seeing the areas (#10 as well) near the wall which come into play cleaned up a bit.  Or, perhaps offer a free drop away from the pebbles when one gets caught up in them.  I don't much see the sense of hitting off pebbles when that area should be the prime recovery spot and no more than 10 yards from the green.  I am not suggesting an Augusta solution, just a bit of a clean up.  I don't know, maybe pebbles continously work their way to the surface making it difficult to keep this area in decent shape?

The discussion on 17 is interesting.  I am not sure how to approach that green.  Depending on where the flag is, risking going long isn't too bad.  When the flag is in the prime spot behind the front ridge and a bit left, I would much rather be long than short.  The same ridge is a convenient backboard for the recovery. 

Ciao   

[Mark Pearce]

Scott - 17 is a runner every time, pitch the ball left into the upslope, I cannot recall ever deliberately pitching onto the green during the season.

That's interesting.  I've only played it half a dozen times but I think I have tried to pitch it on the green every time.  Including during our singles match last September, when I think I birdied it.

[Scott Warren]

I'm with you Mark. In 40-odd plays I don't reckon I ever ran the ball up. I always felt the slopes were just too severe and unhelpful.

[Mark Chaplin]

I'm getting confused, the green is 24 yards deep and the front half runs away from you, but the favoured shot is a lob? IMVHO short is the miss especially when the ball rolls into the little hollow on the right as it's an easy putt up. More chance of winning the lottery than an up and down from behind the green!

[Scott Warren]

IMO the slope at the back left and the back right both make a high shot the play. The ball will stop quickly regardless of the wind.

In any case Chapski, someone capable of hitting the cut mid iron you describe that lands just over the front right trap at the 8th shouldn't have too much drama hitting a 24-yard-deep green with a wedge!

[Sean_A]

In any case Chapski, someone capable of hitting the cut mid iron you describe that lands just over the front right trap at the 8th shouldn't have too much drama hitting a 24-yard-deep green with a wedge!

Just beautiful.  Just effin beautiful. 

Ciao

[Sean_A]

I'm getting confused, the green is 24 yards deep and the front half runs away from you, but the favoured shot is a lob? IMVHO short is the miss especially when the ball rolls into the little hollow on the right as it's an easy putt up. More chance of winning the lottery than an up and down from behind the green!

Chappers

It was a piece of piss on Sunday and I was all the way through down near the hay.  I just scuttled a 6 iron up there with the front of the green as a natural backboard.  I must say I don't fancy hitting a flat shot to a steeply uphill blind spot over two large bunkers for the bounce up.  The wind would have to be pretty strong to attempt a shot like that.

Ciao 

[Mark Woodger]

NW - I like your "rest bite" quote.  That is very Rihcelinesque.

Forgive my ignorance Sean but what does Rihcelinesque mean? Even the wonders of Google could not help me out. 

[Noel Freeman]

You know Sean, you really have a psychosis.. Seriously.. You seem to speak of the merits and detriments of Deal in the same sentences.  You like it, but you don't love it, but you seem to play it often and upon more plays you seem to understand it and like it more, yet you lament the shortcomings (as you see them) as greater.  I'm just using your words Sean.  What are you afraid of?  To admit that Deal is the best venue for the Open currently not on the rota?  That it is a better course for the Open than several courses on the rota?

A few observations--

#17- no one talks about Vardon's parlour and the advantage to hitting there.  The flatter lie allows a greater variety of approaches.  For my money and I spent a lot of time with Russell Talley looking at 17 green, the best play is the right side of the green (the front right) will bounce you left.  Some of that hole is just rub of the green, no doubt about it, I agree I never try to bump it up there, down wind it is a flip wedge and hope but I can say that for a ton of links golf holes.

#8, it is the only shot at the Channel.  The wind is never exactly behind you.  In the SW, a hard fade will hold the green.  Into a northerly, Ive hit push hooks and prayed.  Also, you can miss back left by the 9th tee and have a relatively easy chip for par.

Where Deal is weak in my opinion:

1) Width--yes I'd prefer a bit more width off the tee (left side of 12 to bailout), more to the right on 15 and 16 (don't forget the 16th fairway has changed a ton from the early days (where it was).

2) I'd like another par 3

3) I'd like to see the original Sandy Parlour

4)  The 9th is a good green, I would like to see the fairway changed a bit to make the hazard more of a center one if possible.

BUT, in lieu of me becoming a designer, leave it as the gem it is , the course is ignored by many, doesnt find itself high on ranking lists as it should.  I prefer to let ignorance run its course.  Tell me what links course in Britain has better greens than Deal.  Between #1,3,4,10,13,15,16,17, there is not so much variety and fun as at Deal.

[JMEvensky]

NW - I like your "rest bite" quote.  That is very Rihcelinesque.

Forgive my ignorance Sean but what does Rihcelinesque mean? Even the wonders of Google could not help me out. 

Search "Rich Goodale"--a former,and greatly missed,poster.

[Bill_McBride]

I think Deal should just be relished as it is, a low key gem and a great match play course.  During my five or six rounds, the wind has always seemed just a bit different.

The only change I'd like to see is the removal of the seawall so one could see the ocean more frequently, but I guess that's not going to happen.....

[Sean_A]

You know Sean, you really have a psychosis.. Seriously.. You seem to speak of the merits and detriments of Deal in the same sentences.  You like it, but you don't love it, but you seem to play it often and upon more plays you seem to understand it and like it more, yet you lament the shortcomings (as you see them) as greater.  I'm just using your words Sean.  What are you afraid of?  To admit that Deal is the best venue for the Open currently not on the rota?  That it is a better course for the Open than several courses on the rota?

A few observations--

#17- no one talks about Vardon's parlour and the advantage to hitting there.  The flatter lie allows a greater variety of approaches.  For my money and I spent a lot of time with Russell Talley looking at 17 green, the best play is the right side of the green (the front right) will bounce you left.  Some of that hole is just rub of the green, no doubt about it, I agree I never try to bump it up there, down wind it is a flip wedge and hope but I can say that for a ton of links golf holes.

#8, it is the only shot at the Channel.  The wind is never exactly behind you.  In the SW, a hard fade will hold the green.  Into a northerly, Ive hit push hooks and prayed.  Also, you can miss back left by the 9th tee and have a relatively easy chip for par.

Where Deal is weak in my opinion:

1) Width--yes I'd prefer a bit more width off the tee (left side of 12 to bailout), more to the right on 15 and 16 (don't forget the 16th fairway has changed a ton from the early days (where it was).

2) I'd like another par 3

3) I'd like to see the original Sandy Parlour

4)  The 9th is a good green, I would like to see the fairway changed a bit to make the hazard more of a center one if possible.

BUT, in lieu of me becoming a designer, leave it as the gem it is , the course is ignored by many, doesnt find itself high on ranking lists as it should.  I prefer to let ignorance run its course.  Tell me what links course in Britain has better greens than Deal.  Between #1,3,4,10,13,15,16,17, there is not so much variety and fun as at Deal.

Tuco

I guess I am just more objective than you - tee hee.  I don't see it being psychotic to think a course is very good, but not one I love.  Its not that I like the course more after playing it a few more times this past year, its that I think it is better than I previously thought.  You are probably miscronstruing the short comings I mention as a way saying the course is poor.  That isn't the case at all.  I assume (and have stated many times) that we all understand that Deal is a very good course and that the conversation is couched within that assumption.  So far as Deal being the best venue for an Open not on the rota, I personally wouldn't mind if Deal got another Open.  Although it suffers many of the same problems TOC does with viewing, course traffic and what I think would be an extreme susceptibility to par being smashed unless the weather was very harsh, thats okay by me.  Although, I would rather see Portrush get an Open first and Prestwck second if a new venue were to be considered.

Yes, 17 is a fine hole.    

We disagree on 8.  Out of interest, how is I get my ball over the 9th tee when the hole is playing downwind?  Am I meant to play left of the left bunkers?  Am I meant to hit a hook with a wedge? 

We agree with the width - I too would like it to be wider.

We agree with the lack of par 3s.

We agree that #9 is a good hole and I think its the best drive on the course.  

I don't know where Deal should be in the rankings and I don't care.  The course and club have an excellent reputation and that is what matters.  Talking about rankings is really just a conversation to have for fun.  

The only course in Britain I can think of with better greens than Deal's is TOC.  There are a few others which I believe to be the equal of Deal's.      


Ciao  Ye Man Deal Hater's Club President and Founding Member