KENT KALEIDOSCOPE: Deal (plus changes), Princes (2017-18 Winter Tour) & Sandwich

[JNC Lyon]

Yes, the three things which stood out for me this trip were:

#6 - the tee we used creating the very awkward blind drive - I love alternate tees which change the look of a hole.
#9 - as Andrew states, the broad pimple in the middle of the green where the hole was located last weekend.
#18 - the water is drivable for mere mortals.
In general, how much of the bunkering doesn't make sense for daily play.  

Ciao

Deal HATER- explain your last comment on the bunkering please.. I don't think you've played enough rounds there to qualify that statement.  I've driven into the cross bunkers on 13 downwind and into the sentry ones into a strong headwind.  The 15th and 16th frontal bunkers are usually out of play on the drive except when the southwesterly is strong and they are in play.  The cross bunkers on 17 are definitely in play downwind.  There is no way you played 18 and hit into the ditch unless a northerly was blowing or someone carries the ball 275+ from the member tees, I'm not short (height yes, length no) and have only hit into the ditch when the course is uber burnt out or downwind where a 3 iron can find the water.

Tuco

#8: where does joe bloggs hit his tee shot when the hole plays practically any direction except off the Channel?

#9: why is the fairway bunker protecting the inside of the leg when the best angle of approach is the right side?

#12: Why is the right hand faiirway bunker further away than the left when approaching from the right is usually best?

#13 & 15: repetitive spectacle bunkering, much of which guards rough.

#16: left hand fairway bunker guards rough.

Ciao

Sean,

The bunkering at Deal is not the strength of the course.  In a few spots, it is brilliant and defines holes brilliantly.  I am thinking here of 2, 7, 8, 10, 11, 13, and 14.  Yet even these holes are about much more than just the bunkering.  I agree that some of the bunkering does not make a ton of sense.  However, these bunkers are minimalist, well-present, and harmless.  In general, the contours of the land are the key at Deal.  Let's look at the best holes on the property: 3, 6, 15-17.  All of these holes are defined by vexing ground contours and brilliant greens.  The bunkers are sometimes in play, but they are little more than a distraction. 

I find it hard to criticize the bunkering at Deal because that golf course, unlike too many other courses, is not about "the bunkering."  I've become more and more skeptical about the necessity of bunkering after playing courses like Deal and Huntercombe.  It's really an overused and unnecessary hazard.

Reading these threads makes me wish more and more that I had been on hand for the sloppy stag weekend.

[Scott Warren]

Sean,

#8: where does joe bloggs hit his tee shot when the hole plays practically any direction except off the Channel?

In a bunker or long. To be fair, there used to be bunkers long that were removed so you can go long and chip back. But I agree there is, like 8 at St Enodoc or 10 at Dornoch, not really much of a way to get it close when it's downwind. I'd pull one bunker out at the front to allow a cheeky runner, but extend the front right trap to the left so that path through was only 15ft or so wide, as it's only going to be a wedge if it's downwind at 152yds.

#9: why is the fairway bunker protecting the inside of the leg when the best angle of approach is the right side?

I used to think this and to an extent still do. Flying the bunker gets you no advantage, but hugging it definitely does. The shape of the land off the right of the bunker generally means you get a big kick forward if you hug the bunker and rarely have more than a 9i in, wheras a tee shot placed more than about 10 yards right of the trap will die on the hill and be shoved right, usually leaving a 4i or 5i in. The angle is great from out there, but that's a lot of club with bunkers L and R at the green.

#12: Why is the right hand faiirway bunker further away than the left when approaching from the right is usually best?

I wouldn't say approaching from the right is usually best. If the pin is at the front, you want to be approaching from the left so you can run the ball off the RHS slope and stay away from the front left bunker. When the pin is back I think coming from the right is smarter as the LHS of the halfpipe at the green extends all the way back and a shot played from the right can use that steep slope to hold the green and find the back centre of the surface. Wheras if you go at a back pin fron the left it is easy to hang it out on the slope on the RHS of the green and leave a crazy tough 3rd.

#13 & 15: repetitive spectacle bunkering, much of which guards rough.

Agreed. Massively. The major weakness of the course. I'd love them to use the tee on the right of 12 green for the 13th and introduce some angled drive bunkers to tempt you to bit off the corner and bring the LHS green bunkers in tighter and shorter to make the approach from a drive tugged safely left a bastard.

ie.

[Noel Freeman]

My last trip to Deal 3 wks ago was sloppy..  I wound up in the Port Arms at 1am singing in a kareoke contast.. I think Joe Elliot should call me as my rendition of Pour Some Sugar on Me had some local roses in a tizzy.


Deal Hater:

#12 was originally a par 5 with the tee over the road when designed.. I cannot speak to why the bunkers are staggered then but I can dispute the best line is from the right.  I like driving it left and then banking it off the left side of the U shaped green as that is the bigger side from which to utilize the slope.

I don't have a problem with the sentry bunkers on #15 and #13 guarding rough-- the basically SAY DONT HIT IT HERE unless you have a draw on the ball..

#8, joe bloggs is playing the 152 y tees.. it is an 8 iron.. he should be accurate.. And if you were perceptive my cycloptic friend,  you can always hit it long on that green..

[Noel Freeman]

Scott, you stole my thunder.. What next you going to sing Hysteria?

[Adam Lawrence]

Scott's change to 13 would make the hole safer too, as you'd be playing more directly away from the property boundary.

[Mark Pearce]

I'm not Tuco but here are my answers:

#8: where does joe bloggs hit his tee shot when the hole plays practically any direction except off the Channel?

Into a bunker.  Just pick which one.  Or through the back.

#9: why is the fairway bunker protecting the inside of the leg when the best angle of approach is the right side?

To deceive the player into trying to take it on, either by carrying that bunker or playing as near to it as possible.  Believe me, it works.

#12: Why is the right hand faiirway bunker further away than the left when approaching from the right is usually best?

 See answer to previous question.

#13 & 15: repetitive spectacle bunkering, much of which guards rough.

Not quite.  I think the best line on 13 is over the gap between the spectacles.  15 looks the same but the line is over the left edge of the left bunker or further left.  The line of the gap ensures a second shot played from rough.

#16: left hand fairway bunker guards rough.

I'm not sure which one you are talking about here.  Assuyming you mean the bunker way up the fairway, isn't it an aiming point for the tee shot?  And very close to being a good spot to play your third from into the wind?

[Mark Pearce]

Scott's proposed change to 13 makes it a more obvious hole.  I think 13 is a really strong hole and part of that is tryin g to work that tee shot out.  Isn't part of the trick in design to confuse with visual deceipt.  That's what's going on at 13 and I love it.  Leave it as it is.

[Sean_A]

Yes, the three things which stood out for me this trip were:

#6 - the tee we used creating the very awkward blind drive - I love alternate tees which change the look of a hole.
#9 - as Andrew states, the broad pimple in the middle of the green where the hole was located last weekend.
#18 - the water is drivable for mere mortals.
In general, how much of the bunkering doesn't make sense for daily play.  

Ciao

Deal HATER- explain your last comment on the bunkering please.. I don't think you've played enough rounds there to qualify that statement.  I've driven into the cross bunkers on 13 downwind and into the sentry ones into a strong headwind.  The 15th and 16th frontal bunkers are usually out of play on the drive except when the southwesterly is strong and they are in play.  The cross bunkers on 17 are definitely in play downwind.  There is no way you played 18 and hit into the ditch unless a northerly was blowing or someone carries the ball 275+ from the member tees, I'm not short (height yes, length no) and have only hit into the ditch when the course is uber burnt out or downwind where a 3 iron can find the water.

Tuco

#8: where does joe bloggs hit his tee shot when the hole plays practically any direction except off the Channel?

#9: why is the fairway bunker protecting the inside of the leg when the best angle of approach is the right side?

#12: Why is the right hand faiirway bunker further away than the left when approaching from the right is usually best?

#13 & 15: repetitive spectacle bunkering, much of which guards rough.

#16: left hand fairway bunker guards rough.

Ciao

Sean,

The bunkering at Deal is not the strength of the course.  In a few spots, it is brilliant and defines holes brilliantly.  I am thinking here of 2, 7, 8, 10, 11, 13, and 14.  Yet even these holes are about much more than just the bunkering.  I agree that some of the bunkering does not make a ton of sense.  However, these bunkers are minimalist, well-present, and harmless.  In general, the contours of the land are the key at Deal.  Let's look at the best holes on the property: 3, 6, 15-17.  All of these holes are defined by vexing ground contours and brilliant greens.  The bunkers are sometimes in play, but they are little more than a distraction.  

I find it hard to criticize the bunkering at Deal because that golf course, unlike too many other courses, is not about "the bunkering."  I've become more and more skeptical about the necessity of bunkering after playing courses like Deal and Huntercombe.  It's really an overused and unnecessary hazard.

Reading these threads makes me wish more and more that I had been on hand for the sloppy stag weekend.

Adam

Protect the boundary?  Perhaps pedestrians, but then the club isn't terribly worried about the pedestrians on the sea wall - tee hee.  Scott's change takes the tee shot over a pedestrian walk.  It may make the hole better, but I would bet the archie would get behind that idea. 

JNC

So now we have the Dealers defending the bunker scheme at Deal.  Do you all use the same optometrist?  Here is a heads up, the bunkering is very ordinary.  The best bunkering on the course is #10.  After that, there are very few very well placed bunkers.  Fairway #11 and greenside #12 are both very good.  Most of the rest are either obvious or unnecessary.  

Ciao  

[Scott Warren]

So you like the bunkering at 10-12 and 1, 4, 6, 17, 18, 3 green, 15 green and 16 green are bunkerless... That doesn't leave a whole lot of the golf course.

[Noel Freeman]

Sean-

Of course I'm going to defend a course that I think is Top 50 in the world (and I've seen 80+ on Golf Mag's list).  I willl still argue that you have not played Deal enough and in enough winds to understand what you see as a weakness.

Take the 7th hole.  The bunker on the left is superb placement.  If you hit a running shot into that green that iisnt perfect, that ball will veer left directly into the hazard.

#15- Greenside bunker on the left.  Most people that I've played with never hit the ball right on their approach on 15, it doesnt help that the SW wind also moves you left, and guess what the terrain puts you right into that pot waiting there almost as an afterthought.

[JNC Lyon]

Yes, the three things which stood out for me this trip were:

#6 - the tee we used creating the very awkward blind drive - I love alternate tees which change the look of a hole.
#9 - as Andrew states, the broad pimple in the middle of the green where the hole was located last weekend.
#18 - the water is drivable for mere mortals.
In general, how much of the bunkering doesn't make sense for daily play.  

Ciao

Deal HATER- explain your last comment on the bunkering please.. I don't think you've played enough rounds there to qualify that statement.  I've driven into the cross bunkers on 13 downwind and into the sentry ones into a strong headwind.  The 15th and 16th frontal bunkers are usually out of play on the drive except when the southwesterly is strong and they are in play.  The cross bunkers on 17 are definitely in play downwind.  There is no way you played 18 and hit into the ditch unless a northerly was blowing or someone carries the ball 275+ from the member tees, I'm not short (height yes, length no) and have only hit into the ditch when the course is uber burnt out or downwind where a 3 iron can find the water.

Tuco

#8: where does joe bloggs hit his tee shot when the hole plays practically any direction except off the Channel?

#9: why is the fairway bunker protecting the inside of the leg when the best angle of approach is the right side?

#12: Why is the right hand faiirway bunker further away than the left when approaching from the right is usually best?

#13 & 15: repetitive spectacle bunkering, much of which guards rough.

#16: left hand fairway bunker guards rough.

Ciao

Sean,

The bunkering at Deal is not the strength of the course.  In a few spots, it is brilliant and defines holes brilliantly.  I am thinking here of 2, 7, 8, 10, 11, 13, and 14.  Yet even these holes are about much more than just the bunkering.  I agree that some of the bunkering does not make a ton of sense.  However, these bunkers are minimalist, well-present, and harmless.  In general, the contours of the land are the key at Deal.  Let's look at the best holes on the property: 3, 6, 15-17.  All of these holes are defined by vexing ground contours and brilliant greens.  The bunkers are sometimes in play, but they are little more than a distraction.  

I find it hard to criticize the bunkering at Deal because that golf course, unlike too many other courses, is not about "the bunkering."  I've become more and more skeptical about the necessity of bunkering after playing courses like Deal and Huntercombe.  It's really an overused and unnecessary hazard.

Reading these threads makes me wish more and more that I had been on hand for the sloppy stag weekend.

Adam

Protect the boundary?  Perhaps pedestrians, but then the club isn't terribly worried about the pedestrians on the sea wall - tee hee.  Scott's change takes the tee shot over a pedestrian walk.  It may make the hole better, but I would bet the archie would get behind that idea.  

JNC

So now we have the Dealers defending the bunker scheme at Deal.  Do you all use the same optometrist?  Here is a heads up, the bunkering is very ordinary.  The best bunkering on the course is #10.  After that, there are very few very well placed bunkers.  Fairway #11 and greenside #12 are both very good.  Most of the rest are either obvious or unnecessary.  

Ciao  

Sean,

I think I'll concede that the bunkering at Deal is ordinary.  However, as I said before, the bunkering is not what Deal is about.  Therefore, the mediocre nature of the bunkering does not bother me that much.  In many cases, the bunkering at Deal could just be eliminated, and the strategy would not change the course that much.  Criticizing Deal for its use of bunkering is like criticizing Woking or Swinley Forest for its use of water hazards.  The use of bunkering at Deal is so sparse, why is it that important in judging the overall quality of the course.  Deal is great because it DOESN'T overuse bunkers.

[Sean_A]

So you like the bunkering at 10-12 and 1, 4, 6, 17, 18, 3 green, 15 green and 16 green are bunkerless... That doesn't leave a whole lot of the golf course.

Scott

I actually only named a handful of bunkers, included in which was an entire hole.  IMO, many of the bunkers don't really improve the course for Joe Bloggs.  I did forget one other bunker which is very cool, the far right one on #14.  The recovery from there looks nasty and I happen to like the random nature of catching it instead of the two much easier to deal with bunkers closer to the green.  

JNC

I agree that many bunkers could be eliminated and that Deal is better than the bunker placement would indicate because its a great piece of land.  The flow from flat, to rolly polly, to flat to rolly polly to flat is very fine.

Tuco

Granted, I have essentially only seen two winds at Deal, but I have played Deal a great many times over a great many years.  The other main winds wouldn't materially effect how well placed the bunkering is or how unnecessary much of it is.  I say if there is a good piece of land, why muck it up with sand?  

Ciao

[Mark Chaplin]

I need to read all these posts properly but:

8th - where do you hit it down wind?? Well the green is flat, 35 yards deep and you're hitting 9 iron or wedge. I suggest hitting the green as it's a massive target. Those who find the shot impossible should stick to the range.

13th - Scott you need to try it sometime from the right hand tee, the hole is a disaster. Firstly 90% of the time it plays against the wind or from 1 or 2 o'clock. From the right hand tee the average player has to play left of the bunkers as they cannot carry them, leaving 200+, if you go over the bunkers you are hitting to a shallow downhill fairway with rough ahead of you. 13 isn't a great hole but its actually more about distance judgement and control on the second shot than the drive.

I have always said that our general bunkering is weak and needs improving although we do have some neat bunkers. 5th left fairway and left green, 7th right fairway and left green, 10th left fairway, 11th left fairway and right short, 12th left fairway (this is only about 5 years old) and left green, 14th three greenside, 16th short right and the pits on 17th.

Martin Ebert wants to add around 9 new bunkers which will greatly enhance the course.

[Bill_McBride]

Martin Ebert wants to add around 9 new bunkers which will greatly enhance the course.

Are there nine that could be filled in to keep Sean from getting in a tizzy about "overbunkering?"   


From my several plays a year ago, I rather admired the bunkering at Deal, particularly the cross bunkers.

I look forward to refreshing my memory Tuesday afternoon!

[Mark Chaplin]

Bill the short and unworthy bunkers have already been filled in. Since I joined in 1999 from memory the bunker changes are;

2 - short right fairway filled in, new right fairway around 260 from back tee, left greenside moved about 5yds closer to green

3 - dreadful left fairway bunker built and filled in - you can see the area on google maps. New right fairway bunker built - this is for the forthcoming new back tees.

5 - two right fairway bunkers about 150 and 100 from green filled in, new right side fairway bunker approx 40yds from green built.

8 - two right rear bunkers filled in.

10 - two new right fairway bunkers, short right bunker moved about 10yds closer to green. Left greenside filled in

12 - very short cross bunkers filled in, left fairway bunker built

16 - left bunker 20yds short of green cut into dune filled in

17 - very short cross bunker filled in

[Bill_McBride]

Bill the short and unworthy bunkers have already been filled in. Since I joined in 1999 from memory the bunker changes are;

2 - short right fairway filled in, new right fairway around 260 from back tee, left greenside moved about 5yds closer to green

3 - dreadful left fairway bunker built and filled in - you can see the area on google maps. New right fairway bunker built - this is for the forthcoming new back tees.

5 - two right fairway bunkers about 150 and 100 from green filled in, new right side fairway bunker approx 40yds from green built.

8 - two right rear bunkers filled in.

10 - two new right fairway bunkers, short right bunker moved about 10yds closer to green. Left greenside filled in

12 - very short cross bunkers filled in, left fairway bunker built

16 - left bunker 20yds short of green cut into dune filled in

17 - very short cross bunker filled in

I was just concerned about Sean's blood pressure.   

[Sean_A]

Bill the short and unworthy bunkers have already been filled in. Since I joined in 1999 from memory the bunker changes are;

2 - short right fairway filled in, new right fairway around 260 from back tee, left greenside moved about 5yds closer to green

3 - dreadful left fairway bunker built and filled in - you can see the area on google maps. New right fairway bunker built - this is for the forthcoming new back tees.

5 - two right fairway bunkers about 150 and 100 from green filled in, new right side fairway bunker approx 40yds from green built.

8 - two right rear bunkers filled in.

10 - two new right fairway bunkers, short right bunker moved about 10yds closer to green. Left greenside filled in

12 - very short cross bunkers filled in, left fairway bunker built

16 - left bunker 20yds short of green cut into dune filled in

17 - very short cross bunker filled in

I was just concerned about Sean's blood pressure.  

Ace

My blood pressure is fine thank you very much.  It is heartening to witness at least two Dealies who can see their club course with the blinders off.  I am getting somehwere with the
Campaign.

I hope the weather is fine for you and that a good time is had by all on Tuesday & Wednesday.

Ciao

[Mark Chaplin]

Sean you hate sand and long grass, join Westward Ho! and just play 17 and 18.

[Sean_A]

Sean you hate sand and long grass, join Westward Ho! and just play 17 and 18.

No, I have no desire to join Westward Ho! I will leave it for the guys who dig the rushes. 

Ciao

[Noel Freeman]

Bill the short and unworthy bunkers have already been filled in. Since I joined in 1999 from memory the bunker changes are;

2 - short right fairway filled in, new right fairway around 260 from back tee, left greenside moved about 5yds closer to green

3 - dreadful left fairway bunker built and filled in - you can see the area on google maps. New right fairway bunker built - this is for the forthcoming new back tees.

5 - two right fairway bunkers about 150 and 100 from green filled in, new right side fairway bunker approx 40yds from green built.

8 - two right rear bunkers filled in.

10 - two new right fairway bunkers, short right bunker moved about 10yds closer to green. Left greenside filled in

12 - very short cross bunkers filled in, left fairway bunker built

16 - left bunker 20yds short of green cut into dune filled in

17 - very short cross bunker filled in

I was just concerned about Sean's blood pressure.  

Ace

My blood pressure is fine thank you very much.  It is heartening to witness at least two Dealies who can see their club course with the blinders off.  I am getting somehwere with the
Campaign.

I hope the weather is fine for you and that a good time is had by all on Tuesday & Wednesday.

Ciao

Deal Hater-

You are like Lady Astor to Winston Churchill, an annoyance re: Deal.

I had a conversation yesterday with someone who is self proclaimed beloved in the world of golf about Deal who has it in his world top 50.  And he told me of a well traveled Golf Magazine panelist who feels the same who recently saw it.  Add in a journalist I know who also visited and saw it as a superior venue to Sandwich and methinks it is you who has the blinders on.


That is why I don't love the adding bunker schemes-- Can anyone figure out a course other than Tandridge where they lost over 100 bunkers that is made better by ADDING bunkers?  It is purely a low marker play, solely for them.  I think tightening up a few shots here and there is fine if the course hosts the Open Championship, the bunkers that have been filled in of late were either egregious or just plain not in play.  There is a short bunker on #6 on the left, why is it there, because the hole played from a completely different tee donkey's years ago.


I asked Ran yesterday about if he would advocate adding bunkers to Deal. Now unfortunately, I RESPECT Ran's eyes.. And he told me, WTF would they do that for...

Call me a Deal homer, fine.. But I'll take Deal over all the other Open Championship courses save TOC for member play..

[Mark Chaplin]

Noel I did point out most ideas are unlikely to come to fruition.

Fast links greens only suit flatter green complexes. Traditionally Hunstanton were the quickest in the UK getting up to 11, RCP aim for 10. With the slopes any quicker and a moderate breeze has the ball rolling on the putting surface. Playability quickly becomes an issue.

More than any other feature of a course bunkers evolve all the time, new pits are dug, others filled in and bunkers moved. TOC is the only real exception to this. Snapshots in time do not work.

Do nothing for 20 years and RCP will still be a very fine course.

[Noel Freeman]

Chappers-

I understand your points, but Deal's greens are no more contoured than Augusta and those green speeds are very high.  

[Sean_A]

Bill the short and unworthy bunkers have already been filled in. Since I joined in 1999 from memory the bunker changes are;

2 - short right fairway filled in, new right fairway around 260 from back tee, left greenside moved about 5yds closer to green

3 - dreadful left fairway bunker built and filled in - you can see the area on google maps. New right fairway bunker built - this is for the forthcoming new back tees.

5 - two right fairway bunkers about 150 and 100 from green filled in, new right side fairway bunker approx 40yds from green built.

8 - two right rear bunkers filled in.

10 - two new right fairway bunkers, short right bunker moved about 10yds closer to green. Left greenside filled in

12 - very short cross bunkers filled in, left fairway bunker built

16 - left bunker 20yds short of green cut into dune filled in

17 - very short cross bunker filled in

I was just concerned about Sean's blood pressure.  

Ace

My blood pressure is fine thank you very much.  It is heartening to witness at least two Dealies who can see their club course with the blinders off.  I am getting somehwere with the
Campaign.

I hope the weather is fine for you and that a good time is had by all on Tuesday & Wednesday.

Ciao

Deal Hater-

You are like Lady Astor to Winston Churchill, an annoyance re: Deal.

I had a conversation yesterday with someone who is self proclaimed beloved in the world of golf about Deal who has it in his world top 50.  And he told me of a well traveled Golf Magazine panelist who feels the same who recently saw it.  Add in a journalist I know who also visited and saw it as a superior venue to Sandwich and methinks it is you who has the blinders on.

Chappers has to deal (pun intended) with Deal politics.. And that imho has to do with how the course scores.  Sadly, Sandwich plays several shots harder (some of this can be fixed with adding length on the front 9 and I have no problem for tournament play with 16 playing as a par 4).  To me this is silly, TOC is capable of mid to low 60s on a benign day in the Open Championship, that same day may yield scores a few strokes higher at Carnoustie.  I DON'T CARE about that, Bernard Darwin wouldnt care either, it is the merit of the strategies, not how hard your golf course is.

That is why I don't love the adding bunker schemes-- Can anyone figure out a course other than Tandridge where they lost over 100 bunkers that is made better by ADDING bunkers?  It is purely a low marker play, solely for them.  I think tightening up a few shots here and there is fine if the course hosts the Open Championship, the bunkers that have been filled in of late were either egregious or just plain not in play.  There is a short bunker on #6 on the left, why is it there, because the hole played from a completely different tee donkey's years ago.

Chappers told me of a few bunker changes they are looking at.. Several called for making you hit shots off the tee, like #11 and #13..The shots that are being requested make no sense to me with added bunkers.  A fade is already the preferred shot for example on #13, putting bunkers in the landing zone left for example which is proposed-- 1) causes visual overload with the crossbunkers already there, 2) into the southwesterly which is penalizing you left to begin with, some marginally good shots will be punished.. Besides 13 defends itself at the green, there is a reason the pro Andrew Reynolds told me never to give a putt away to a competitor on that hole.

A similar bunker strategy in reverse is proposed on #11--this time for a draw. Well call me Tuco but you can bail out all day right on #11 and have a longer shot and poorer angle in.. Two bunkers there to protect that side is overkill..

There were an idea to add ones on #2 and #16, I am less upset about those.  I'd rather Deal add length and speed up the greens for Amateur and hopefully Open Play.

I asked Ran yesterday about if he would advocate adding bunkers to Deal. Now unfortunately, I RESPECT Ran's eyes.. And he told me, WTF would they do that for...

Call me a Deal homer, fine.. But I'll take Deal over all the other Open Championship courses save TOC for member play..

Tuco

I am not terribly bothered or overly impressed by so called expert opinion.  I have seen Deal more than enough to form an opinon.  I don't know if Deal is a top 50 course or not and I don't care.  That said, I agree with you in that they could do nothing at Deal and its a very fine course. They could take out 10 bunkers and its a very fine course. They could add six bunkers and its a very fine course.  They could add 10 and take out six and its very fine course.  We are talking about detail which wouldn't alter what Deal is or what it is about.  My preferences are for less sand when the land is ideal for golf and if I were a member I would be against changes just to make the course harder.  Any change should be to make the course more interesting or to use the land better.   

While Deal isn't and likely never will be one of my favourites I would take it over every current Open venue except one; Sandwich.  And there is only one other previous Open course I would take over Deal - Prestwick.  High praise for a Deal Hater with blinders on.        

Ciao

[JNC Lyon]

Tuco and Sean,

Would you both agree that no more bunkers are needed at Deal?  I think some of these bunker schemes are overbearing and unnecessary.  Deal does not need more bunkers.  Deal relies on wind, terrain, and especially the GREENS for its defense.  Why distract from these three things?

[Mark Chaplin]

John et al - courses evolve, if we agree the bunkering is probably about right then the 20 changes in bunkering since I joined in 1999 were all good moves to get to this position, at the time of changes some people would have been complaining about messing with the course. There are also around a dozen new tees, some longer others moved and some for seniors/ladies. the greens have been allowed to get bigger again creating excellent new pins on 3 front right and 7 & 13 back right.

Looking at plans from 100 years ago there have been literally hundreds of changes to the course.

My point is golf courses are living breathing things that do not stand still.