KENT KALEIDOSCOPE: Deal (plus changes), Princes (2017-18 Winter Tour) & Sandwich

[Scott Warren]

I'm with you on rough. Brora is as far from a push-over as you'd want to see and the group of us played a combined 144 holes there in may without looking like losing a ball.

I hate pointless penal rough, but Deal's issues with it, while increasing because of this "championship" ideal, are still quite a long way short of dire (in my opinion). That's as of now. But I agree it is unsettling.

The fun and challenge of our golf course is in the greens and the magnificence (I don't think that is too strong a word for them) of the greens is highlighted by angles. Those angles are being reduced, no doubt.

I realise the R&A and the club are doing what they are doing for a reason, and it is their right to make the course more difficult in the ways they see fit to do so for the Tillman Trophy and the 2013 Amateur.

But the course doesn't need it. They certainly aren't making it a better course or allowing its strengths to come to the fore. Narrowing the playable corridors just makes it more brutal and less fun.

Like I say, the damage so far is quite minimal, but the trend is a worrying one.

[Sean_A]

I'm with you on rough. Brora is as far from a push-over as you'd want to see and the group of us played a combined 144 holes there in may without looking like losing a ball.

I hate pointless penal rough, but Deal's issues with it, while increasing because of this "championship" ideal, are still quite a long way short of dire (in my opinion). That's as of now. But I agree it is unsettling.

The fun and challenge of our golf course is in the greens and the magnificence (I don't think that is too strong a word for them) of the greens is highlighted by angles. Those angles are being reduced, no doubt.

I realise the R&A and the club are doing what they are doing for a reason, and it is their right to make the course more difficult in the ways they see fit to do so for the Tillman Trophy and the 2013 Amateur.

But the course doesn't need it. They certainly aren't making it a better course or allowing its strengths to come to the fore. Narrowing the playable corridors just makes it more brutal and less fun.

Like I say, the damage so far is quite minimal, but the trend is a worrying one.

Scott

I think we are in perfect agreement.  Deal is no Muirfield (dire) when it comes to rough.  My observations were about not liking the trend even though the rough is only really a problem on a handful of holes - in decent weather.  Crank the weather up two notches and "Houston, we have a (serious) problem."  Its more a philsophical debate rather than a bare knuckles one.  I think when Deal is keen the course would be better if less rough was about.  I also believe that statement holds true for most links.  Its not a miracle that the courses without water don't have rough.  This is why I don't totally buy into blaming weather for I would call poor conditions.  Clubs cultivate a culture and for many, being tougher is part of that cultivation and the EASIEST way to become tougher is to grow rough.  Here is hoping the powers that be at Deal don't roll over like Chapppers seems to have done. 

Ciao

[Mark Chaplin]

I'm still failing to see where I've "rolled over" the fairways haven't narrowed the semi has. I spray the ball around and it's not worrying me. RStG cut their rough down to an inch or two last autumn and really cleared in out. The only thick areas at Deal are where water runs off or the land is at sea level. This summer is very benign.

[Scott Warren]

It may be that the semi has narrowed rather than the fairways, but what I am focused on is that the playable corridor is narrower.

In a way, the reduction of semi makes it more extreme, as in fast and firm conditions it's the semi that can slow a slightly wayward ball and keep it out of the rubbish. With less semi between the fast fairways and the lost ball territory, it seems to me that balls that would have been held up by the wider semi last summer will retain enough momentum to reach the proper rough this summer.

That said, holes like 2, 3, 5, 7, 10, 12, 17 and 18 are still decently wide and the likes of 9, 13 and 16 only have severe rough on the inside of the hole where you are shortening the hole by hugging that side.

Take away the three one-shotters and to me that leaves 1, 6 and 11 that stand out to me as being a bit silly as they are.

1 is definitely thicker on the right this summer which I have seen taking balls and slowing the field down from the start of the round.
6 is such a great, tough green that the tightening of the landing zone is unnecessary, and,
11 is a monster with the fairway sloping toward the rough on both sides anyway, not to mention that they could just use the sea wall tee to toughen it as it's a brute from up there.

As I've said, it's the trend more than what's on the ground right now that is the major concern.

[Bill_McBride]

It may be that the semi has narrowed rather than the fairways, but what I am focused on is that the playable corridor is narrower.

In a way, the reduction of semi makes it more extreme, as in fast and firm conditions it's the semi that can slow a slightly wayward ball and keep it out of the rubbish. With less semi between the fast fairways and the lost ball territory, it seems to me that balls that would have been held up by the wider semi last summer will retain enough momentum to reach the proper rough this summer.

That said, holes like 2, 3, 5, 7, 10, 12, 17 and 18 are still decently wide and the likes of 9, 13 and 16 only have severe rough on the inside of the hole where you are shortening the hole by hugging that side.

Take away the three one-shotters and to me that leaves 1, 6 and 11 that stand out to me as being a bit silly as they are.

1 is definitely thicker on the right this summer which I have seen taking balls and slowing the field down from the start of the round.
6 is such a great, tough green that the tightening of the landing zone is unnecessary, and,
11 is a monster with the fairway sloping toward the rough on both sides anyway, not to mention that they could just use the sea wall tee to toughen it as it's a brute from up there.

As I've said, it's the trend more than what's on the ground right now that is the major concern.

The 6th hole should be mowed tightly everywhere, in order to tempt the golfer into making some really dumb shot selections!  Thick rough defeats the entire idea of that hole.


Maybe thick rough in the direct line to challenge the flat bellies, but even that may be a bad idea.

[Sean_A]

I'm still failing to see where I've "rolled over" the fairways haven't narrowed the semi has. I spray the ball around and it's not worrying me. RStG cut their rough down to an inch or two last autumn and really cleared in out. The only thick areas at Deal are where water runs off or the land is at sea level. This summer is very benign.

Chappers

By rolled over I mean you excuse what I would call unnecessary rough because some good golfers are going to show at some point.  I would suggest that most golfers can't handle the rough and it sure doesn't add to the enjoyment of the game to get a burnt neck.  Why in the heck do you think I was not praising Deal before?  The course couldn't handle a decent wind which occurs too often.   

Ace

I agree with you concerning the 6th.  I would love to see the rough cut way back on a direct line to the hole, but only on the far side of the dune so a guy has to judge the carry of the blind shot pretty damn accurately.  The view from the tee should still be nasty rough to create doubt and fear. 

Ciao

[James Boon]

Gentlemen,

I read this thread with great interest and anticipation, when you where discussing Deal and others recently, but as it was about 7 years ago since I caddied round Deal, I decided to wait till my trip this weekend to add to the discussion. I'm sure I'm not going to add anything new, but her goes:

There are 4 holes at Deal, that are possibly amongst the best links (or any other type of course) that I've ever played. Great par 5s are often considered a rare thing, but Deal has 2 in the 3rd and 16th. The 6th shows that a great short par 4 doesn't need to be protected by tons of bunkers, just push the green up high onto a plateau (in fact Deal's 6th really remind me of Brora's 1st, only better) and Sean's favourite 10th, a great example of a medium length par 4, showing that good strategy can help defend a hole, not just length.

In fact the 16th probably has just about eveything I would ever want in a hole? Cross bunkers to challenge the shorter hitter, a pot up the left to catch a layup or a bombed tee shot wind behind, beautiful rumpled fairway, approach to a raised green which is therefore tricky weather approaching it with a wedge or a 3 wood, a green itself which has as many rumples as parts of the fairway, and a wee bit of none golf character and history in the old pill box bunker on the right.

There are so many other great holes, greens, drives, and so much fun to be had. I didn't think the fairways were narrow at all, and in most places were they are ther rough was manageable. The club itself has a great feeling, and with a first floor lounge, a great view over the course.

I think its fair to say, when the Deal Appreciation Society is set up, I'll be happy to join!

Cheers,

James

[Sean_A]

Boony

I guess I am in left field with the rough, but after playing Burnham yesterday I remain more convinced that Deal needs to cut it back.  When Burnham looks and plays wider than most links there is something amiss.  Not that I am complaining, this is the first summer in yonks that Burnham has been a pleasure to play in a decent wind.

Ciao

[James Boon]

Sean,

I did remember Deal as playing very tight from my previous trip caddying there, but then that was an Open Qualifying? So I was a little suprised that it didn't seem that tight to me yesterday. It is indeed a pleasure to play Burnham at the moment, and I'm sure the fairways are getting wider, but as you say when Burnham feels wide, there must be something amiss! 

Cheers,

James

[Mark Chaplin]

Lucky you played yesterday as 9-12 were closed mid morning today after a bomb was found on the course. Clearly WW2 and enough to create a new bunker!

Sean - 17 under won the Tillman in the week so the good players clearly found it wide enough.

James - the "short hitter" bunkers on 16 can be a big carry especially off the back tee in a breeze!

[Sean_A]

Lucky you played yesterday as 9-12 were closed mid morning today after a bomb was found on the course. Clearly WW2 and enough to create a new bunker!

Sean - 17 under won the Tillman in the week so the good players clearly found it wide enough.

James - the "short hitter" bunkers on 16 can be a big carry especially off the back tee in a breeze!

Chappers

At some point you will eventually understand that I don't care about the best players and how they score.  They should not be the measure of how a course is presented unless the course is all about championship golf.  Unfortunately, folks get caught up in this stuff which is more the pity.

I did a slight update of the Deal section of the Kaleidoscope.  A most enjoyable time was had by all at Scott's doo.  The course was in fine nick, especially the greens.  As a bonus, the young eyes of Scott, though blurred by chemical intake, mistook my orange tee shirt as my skin and asked (if the logo) if it was permament.  Well I say.

Ciao

[Mark Chaplin]

Sean - nice update, no one mentioned narrow fairways at the weekend so I'm guessing it was only a factor during the usual "lush" part of the year that all links courses enjoy until the sun dries the grass out.

Routing - using genuine links land our routing is restricted to what we have. Would Deal have been better if we had extended away from the sea using a bulldozer to create fake linksland, which seems to be all the rage in Scotland.

You appear to being slowly seduced by Deal, it maybe a cliche but the Deal experience is more than the sum of the individual parts.

[Scott Warren]

I remember that, vaguely, Sean...

I have a photo of you and Adam that speaks volumes about the state we were in, but I haven't decided yet whether I'll be so low as to post it on here!

More than a couple of the guys have said the course/club grows on them with every visit.

[Sean_A]

There is no question Deal is a very fine course and that has always been my belief.  I fear the He Man Deal Hater has long been mis-characterized because he doesn't worship at the altar of all things Deal nor consider Deal one of his favourite courses.  That is the want of some folks - they love Deal that much and thats fair enough.  Here is hoping Chappers and the numerous Dealies will consider a once yearly weekend gathering at Deal which is open first come first serve to all.  If at all possible, I would be there.  

Scott - btw - that avatar photo is trade marked, but I will gladly enter negotiations for fair compensation - tee hee.

Ciao

[Mark Pearce]

Scott - btw - that avatar photo is trade marked, but I will gladly enter negotiations for fair compensation - tee hee.

As both one of the subjects of said photograph and an intellectual property lawyer, I am appalled at your lack of understanding of IP.  I think you meant copyright, not trade marked?

Anyway, what upsets me is the use of an image of me without obtaining my consent.  How do you think it feels being displayed walking next to a man in those socks?  I think I should sue.

[Scott Warren]

How do you think it feels being displayed walking next to a man in those socks?

Probably about the same as I felt walking next to a man in lemon strides and a pastel green shirt!

I have now had copyright claims against my avatar (Arble) and my message under it (Huntley). I really do need a good lawyer... preferably one who doesn't wear lemon trousers!

[Andrew Mitchell]

More than a couple of the guys have said the course/club grows on them with every visit.

Count me amongst the band who find that Deal grows on me with every play.

Last year at BUDA I thoroughly enjoyed Deal.  After all who wouldn't be smitten by the approachs to and the green sites at 3, 6, 15 & 16.
However I was blown away by Royal St Georges, which I thought was easily the best course I've played in England and probably in my top 5.  This year, playing purely at Deal, RCP revealed more of its subleties to me. The fall away at the left of the 4th green which is blind from the tee; the greensite at 7; the raised centre part of the green at 9 which deceives you on long putts from both front & back; the brilliance of both the drive and approach at 10 - a hole which on first play is apparently bland; the fairway undulations on 17.

Given the atmosphere and friendliness of the club you have a combination which in my opinion is hard to beat.  I just wish I lived nearer 

I'd heartily second Sean's suggestion of a once yearly gathering at Deal if the members were amenable to such a proposal

[Mark Pearce]

Count me with Andrew as one who appreciated some of the lesser talked about holes far more last weekend than I did at BUDA.  4, 7 (for the visual deception off the tee as well as the greesite), 9 (though  I still haven't hit a decent drive there), 13, 14 (with it's "safe" chipping area left of the green), 15, 17 (almost as good a greensite as the raved about ones and a wonderful fairway) and 18 with what must be an artificially raised green but tricky to hit.  Count me in for any Deal GCA event in future.

[Sean_A]

Yes, the three things which stood out for me this trip were:

#6 - the tee we used creating the very awkward blind drive - I love alternate tees which change the look of a hole.
#9 - as Andrew states, the broad pimple in the middle of the green where the hole was located last weekend.
#18 - the water is drivable for mere mortals.
In general, how much of the bunkering doesn't make sense for daily play.   

Ciao

[Mark Chaplin]

As I am heavily involved in club business and matches I will allow a fellow member to propose a fixture, hopefully to coincide with a visit by some of our regular overseas members.

A small group at weekends is possible especially with morning foursomes and afternoon singles, which reduces pressure on the tee.

[Noel Freeman]

Yes, the three things which stood out for me this trip were:

#6 - the tee we used creating the very awkward blind drive - I love alternate tees which change the look of a hole.
#9 - as Andrew states, the broad pimple in the middle of the green where the hole was located last weekend.
#18 - the water is drivable for mere mortals.
In general, how much of the bunkering doesn't make sense for daily play.   

Ciao

Deal HATER- explain your last comment on the bunkering please.. I don't think you've played enough rounds there to qualify that statement.  I've driven into the cross bunkers on 13 downwind and into the sentry ones into a strong headwind.  The 15th and 16th frontal bunkers are usually out of play on the drive except when the southwesterly is strong and they are in play.  The cross bunkers on 17 are definitely in play downwind.  There is no way you played 18 and hit into the ditch unless a northerly was blowing or someone carries the ball 275+ from the member tees, I'm not short (height yes, length no) and have only hit into the ditch when the course is uber burnt out or downwind where a 3 iron can find the water.

[Scott Warren]

Noel,

The wind was coming off the ocean on Saturday afternoon - firm but not crazy - and from the members' tee I drove it in the burn on 18, Mark P was about 5 yards short from memory and as we crossed the bridge the guys behind us (Sean's group) both put their drives right near it.

You're right, it's a long drive down there, but it's just in that zone where you won't reach it often, but you will definitely be aware of its presence.

[Mark Pearce]

Noel,

The wind was coming off the ocean on Saturday afternoon - firm but not crazy - and from the members' tee I drove it in the burn on 18, Mark P was about 5 yards short from memory and as we crossed the bridge the guys behind us (Sean's group) both put their drives right near it.

You're right, it's a long drive down there, but it's just in that zone where you won't reach it often, but you will definitely be aware of its presence.

Wind was straight off the left, certainly not helping at all.  My shot was solid, not exceptional and I'm not particularly long.  That water's clearly in play.

[Sean_A]

Yes, the three things which stood out for me this trip were:

#6 - the tee we used creating the very awkward blind drive - I love alternate tees which change the look of a hole.
#9 - as Andrew states, the broad pimple in the middle of the green where the hole was located last weekend.
#18 - the water is drivable for mere mortals.
In general, how much of the bunkering doesn't make sense for daily play.  

Ciao

Deal HATER- explain your last comment on the bunkering please.. I don't think you've played enough rounds there to qualify that statement.  I've driven into the cross bunkers on 13 downwind and into the sentry ones into a strong headwind.  The 15th and 16th frontal bunkers are usually out of play on the drive except when the southwesterly is strong and they are in play.  The cross bunkers on 17 are definitely in play downwind.  There is no way you played 18 and hit into the ditch unless a northerly was blowing or someone carries the ball 275+ from the member tees, I'm not short (height yes, length no) and have only hit into the ditch when the course is uber burnt out or downwind where a 3 iron can find the water.

Tuco

#8: where does joe bloggs hit his tee shot when the hole plays practically any direction except off the Channel?

#9: why is the fairway bunker protecting the inside of the leg when the best angle of approach is the right side?

#12: Why is the right hand faiirway bunker further away than the left when approaching from the right is usually best?

#13 & 15: repetitive spectacle bunkering, much of which guards rough.

#16: left hand fairway bunker guards rough.

Ciao

[Adam Lawrence]

I think the bunkering on 13 and 15, while undeniably repetitive, is clearly designed to force play away from the boundary of the course.