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Scott Warren

  • Karma: +0/-0
You guys should find a two-ball club halfway between Columbia SC and Rochester NY, book a single tee time and hold the inaugural meeting of the "15th at Sandwich Appreciation Society" ;D

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Quote
I am told by reliable sources that Sandwich has flat greens.

That's a strange one.

2, 3, 4, 9, 10, 12, 13, 17 and 18 all stick in my mind as having plenty going on both within the green and around it.



Yeah, who came up with flat greens at Sandwich?  I think there are even more than Scott listed here.  The greens at Sandwich were a highlight for me.

The 3rd and 11th holes really bring Sandwich down in my book.  They are not bad golf holes by any means.  However, the holes appear to be designed with cookie cutters (Sandwich cutters?).  The long par three to a two-tiered green is very common, and these holes at Sandwich could been found at countless inland courses.  These holes are not in any way fun or whimsical.  They are simply two tough par threes built with one purpose: attracting the Open Championship.  Another reason Deal is preferred in my book: Deal might have some average holes (although the 9th is the only one that sticks out as a weak hole for me), but it does not have any holes like these.

I'll take plenty of holes like the 5th at Sandwich, a hole that is not really strategic, but a hole that is thrilling and tons of fun.  Maybe the 5th is one of those holes that gave the illusion of a flat green, but one that is really full of interest upon reaching the green.

Sean, I think you underrate the merits of the 7th and the 18th.  The 7th plays beautifully upon a gentle valley after climbing over the dunes off the tee, and the second and third shots are full of interest.  The golfer must endeavor to get his ball as far left as possible to set up an acceptable angle for approach.  The green slopes slowly but surely from right to left, making any shot from the right less than desirable.  The 18th has a similar sort of strategy off the tee, except flirting with the left side is more fearsome due to the mid-fairway mound that can kick shots into the left fairway bunker with easy.  Are these the best holes at Sandwich? Probably not, but they were both sleepers in my book.



JNC

The 7th is alright - no harm done, but it doesn't work well as a par 5 from the daily tees.  I think the right-front greenside bunkers should be built up and force the aggressive line right.  Why?  I watched a guy (for what seemed the fifth time) hop the furthest left of these bunkers and make eagle.  If there are gonna be bunkers as part of the strategy then they have to do their job.

#18 isn't a bad hole.  In fact as a hole its just as good as many on Sandwich.  I don't like where it finishes.  

I agree about 3 and 11.  These holes should be better, but they are no worse than Deal's long par 3 on the back nine - tee hee.

Ciao
« Last Edit: July 07, 2010, 09:41:52 AM by Sean Arble »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Scott Warren

  • Karma: +0/-0
I think 14 at Deal is a great hole.

The good miss is left, but that haven of short grass is blocked from view on the tee by the dune about halfway to the green. You also can't see the area 30m by 30m short of the green where you can safely leave your tee shot short.

All that's visible is the green and the three bunkers that gather anything 1m-20m right of the green and leave a tough sand shot to a green sloping ever so gentle away from you.

There are plenty of ways to tackle it, good and bad misses to reward awareness and smart play and the green suits a hole of that length, with some steady break to separate the men from the boys, but nothing Mickey Mouse.

That said, I am also a fan of the 3rd at Sandwich and started to see something to like in the 11th on my second play.

JNC Lyon

  • Karma: +0/-0
You guys should find a two-ball club halfway between Columbia SC and Rochester NY, book a single tee time and hold the inaugural meeting of the "15th at Sandwich Appreciation Society" ;D

I would do it, but there are no two-ball clubs in that geographic area.
"That's why Oscar can't see that!" - Philip E. "Timmy" Thomas

JNC Lyon

  • Karma: +0/-0
I think 14 at Deal is a great hole.

The good miss is left, but that haven of short grass is blocked from view on the tee by the dune about halfway to the green. You also can't see the area 30m by 30m short of the green where you can safely leave your tee shot short.

All that's visible is the green and the three bunkers that gather anything 1m-20m right of the green and leave a tough sand shot to a green sloping ever so gentle away from you.

There are plenty of ways to tackle it, good and bad misses to reward awareness and smart play and the green suits a hole of that length, with some steady break to separate the men from the boys, but nothing Mickey Mouse.

That said, I am also a fan of the 3rd at Sandwich and started to see something to like in the 11th on my second play.

I agree with everything here except that last sentence. ;D  14 at Deal really grew on me during my stay, and there is differently much more to be learned from that hole than the two clunkers at Sandwich.
"That's why Oscar can't see that!" - Philip E. "Timmy" Thomas

Brent Hutto

You guys should find a two-ball club halfway between Columbia SC and Rochester NY, book a single tee time and hold the inaugural meeting of the "15th at Sandwich Appreciation Society" ;D

I would do it, but there are no two-ball clubs in that geographic area.

Halfway be damned. How hot is it today in Rochester? I'm missing those 11C windy days in Kent something awful.

JNC Lyon

  • Karma: +0/-0
You guys should find a two-ball club halfway between Columbia SC and Rochester NY, book a single tee time and hold the inaugural meeting of the "15th at Sandwich Appreciation Society" ;D

I would do it, but there are no two-ball clubs in that geographic area.

Halfway be damned. How hot is it today in Rochester? I'm missing those 11C windy days in Kent something awful.

High 95F here in Upstate New York.  A cool breeze off the English Channel at Deal would hit the spot today.
"That's why Oscar can't see that!" - Philip E. "Timmy" Thomas

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
I personally liked both #4 and 8 at Deal; I like the way they both sit a bit off center line.  #4 is 8 to 2 and #8 more 7 to 1 on the clock face.  A cut seems to be the ideal shot.  Nick Leefe would know about #4 after his Buda ace!

#14 I thought was just a solid longer par 3 where you could run one on.   The deep bunkers really make #8 and 14.


Brent Hutto

I personally liked both #4 and 8 at Deal; I like the way they both sit a bit off center line.  #4 is 8 to 2 and #8 more 7 to 1 on the clock face.  A cut seems to be the ideal shot.  Nick Leefe would know about #4 after his Buda ace!

#14 I thought was just a solid longer par 3 where you could run one on.   The deep bunkers really make #8 and 14.



Oh the bunkers make #8 all right. I just can't say what they make it, in polite company.

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
I personally liked both #4 and 8 at Deal; I like the way they both sit a bit off center line.  #4 is 8 to 2 and #8 more 7 to 1 on the clock face.  A cut seems to be the ideal shot.  Nick Leefe would know about #4 after his Buda ace!

#14 I thought was just a solid longer par 3 where you could run one on.   The deep bunkers really make #8 and 14.



Oh the bunkers make #8 all right. I just can't say what they make it, in polite company.

For you the correct shot would be a gentle draw!   ;)

Brent Hutto

On my two tries this time around I managed a pull-draw into a back right bunker and pull-chunked shot into the front right one.

But both times I was visualizing the prettiest little baby draw with a 7-iron you'd ever want to see...a shot I did manage to hit as my second on the tenth hole. Unfortunately, into the breeze I needed more like a pretty little baby draw with a 4-iron there.

Jamie Barber

I would find that a perfectly wonderful hole if the OB fence were moved to the right about 10-12 paces further

I absolutely don't agree with that; I've been stocking up on ProV1s from that OOB area for the last 5 years :)

Mark Chaplin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Sean - pleased you had a good weekend, cracking weather.

Princes - I played one of my best ever competitive rounds at Princes but we are in agreement the weakness is the similarity of so many of the drives between the low dunes.

Deal - Noel is right about the 3rd, the tee is going back left to make the hole 515/570yds, the new right bunker will be a tough target to get past to set up a second shot from the nice flat area. The tees are being moved for two reasons; Safety - from the back right tees it's just too dangerous for dog walkers below the seawall. Speed - the hole causes delays as it's 460 from the member tees and too many people can hit the green (or think they can!) in two causing delays on the tee.

There has been some concern from fellow GCAers/members concerning fairway narrowing ruining lines. The chair of greens assures me the fairways haven't changed at all the semi rough has been reduced to one 5yd cut then the thick stuff which apart from a few patches is pretty tame - zero rain for a month - this is part of 2011 qualifying work as another dry year would give no fairway/rough definition. So the only difference from 2009 is the width of the semi.

RStG - 4th spoilt by the par 5 set up for the last Open lets pray they make it back into a good par 4.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2010, 03:26:43 PM by Mark Chaplin »
Cave Nil Vino

Noel Freeman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Chappers-

Sean still can't figure out if you had one round left to play in life how Deal is superior to Sandwich... ;)

I have not been back to Princes since 2000, maybe worth a look.. So many people don't try out North Foreland or even Walmer.. There are some good holes to see, not cracking golf but worth a look-see..

For my money the 5 greatest shots at Deal are:

1) The drive on #6 when you go for it
2) The 2nd shot (especially downwind) on #16
3) The approach to #12 using the green contours to funnel to hole
4) Approach to #3 (again 2nd shot)
5) Drive on #10 if you really understand how to play the hole correctly for the right angle

Deal has no real indifferent shots, or if there is a ho-hum shot (say the drive on #5), the next shot is not indiferent at all... I also think the subtleties of figuring out the right angles on holes 9 and 11 for the drive take time.. I have 100 rounds at Deal in my history and I still learn things everytime I'm there..


Scott Warren

  • Karma: +0/-0
For mine, 9 is the hole at Deal that costs it when you compare it to the greats.

There is a great risk/reward drive waiting to be made worthwhile with that brilliant fairway bunker, but as it stands your reward for flying it is an approach to a hidden green surface over two greenfront bunkers, whereas if you flay your drive 30 yards right of the bunker you have the A1 line in.

I also think the footprint and greensite of 13 could be turned into a better hole. Reducing the three cross bunkers into a sole centreline bunker could make for a better drive, especially as the land wants to kick the drive forward and give you that wedge into the green. By doing that your A1 drive is over the RHS fairway traps and then past the centreline bunker where the cross bunker would be, hugging the right.

Mark Chaplin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Noel - Sean is warming to Deal - just noticed he has replaced Woodhall Spa (one of my favourites) for Deal in his top 25 - I do think it's a course that needs a few rounds and I'll get him back for another view sometime. I disagree with the driving though, Sean must having been playing off the girly tees as the big strength of Sandwich is off the tee. Holes such as 4,7,8,12,15 and 18 are very different from the medal and championship tees.

Brent - 15 at Sandwich is a good hole unless you are coming in with lots of club in which case the bunkering makes it really tough to hit the green.

8 at Deal off the main tees (closest to 7th green) a cut is always the shot to hold the ball into the breeze and avoid running into the left hand bunkers.

Scott - I agree with you on the 9th Martin Ebert wants to put some low rumpled humps and hollows down the semi as seen at Birkdale.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2010, 05:08:52 PM by Mark Chaplin »
Cave Nil Vino

JNC Lyon

  • Karma: +0/-0
For mine, 9 is the hole at Deal that costs it when you compare it to the greats.

There is a great risk/reward drive waiting to be made worthwhile with that brilliant fairway bunker, but as it stands your reward for flying it is an approach to a hidden green surface over two greenfront bunkers, whereas if you flay your drive 30 yards right of the bunker you have the A1 line in.

I also think the footprint and greensite of 13 could be turned into a better hole. Reducing the three cross bunkers into a sole centreline bunker could make for a better drive, especially as the land wants to kick the drive forward and give you that wedge into the green. By doing that your A1 drive is over the RHS fairway traps and then past the centreline bunker where the cross bunker would be, hugging the right.

Scott,

Although the 9th at Deal is strange from tee to green, it still has a wonderful low-lying green complex that saves it from being a terrible hole.

How often are those centerline bunkers at 13 even in play?  My best drives don't get out there downwind.  I feel like that is a fine hole as is, with a truly great back-to-front green that is diabolical if you are above the hole.  How many greens do you see like that on the Kent Coast?
"That's why Oscar can't see that!" - Philip E. "Timmy" Thomas

JNC Lyon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Noel, Scott, Mark, et al,

I think we need to start a Deal Appreciation Society.  I'm convinced Sean will be a member after a few more plays.  Seriously though, Deal is sort of like the Kingsley Club of the UK on this website, and very deservedly so IMO.
"That's why Oscar can't see that!" - Philip E. "Timmy" Thomas

John Mayhugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Noel, Scott, Mark, et al,

I think we need to start a Deal Appreciation Society.  I'm convinced Sean will be a member after a few more plays.  Seriously though, Deal is sort of like the Kingsley Club of the UK on this website, and very deservedly so IMO.

Count me as part of the appreciation society for both Deal & Kingsley.

On a side note, reading Sean's excellent commentary on courses I have played makes me appreciate his other tours even more.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Sean - pleased you had a good weekend, cracking weather.

Princes - I played one of my best ever competitive rounds at Princes but we are in agreement the weakness is the similarity of so many of the drives between the low dunes.

Deal - Noel is right about the 3rd, the tee is going back left to make the hole 515/570yds, the new right bunker will be a tough target to get past to set up a second shot from the nice flat area. The tees are being moved for two reasons; Safety - from the back right tees it's just too dangerous for dog walkers below the seawall. Speed - the hole causes delays as it's 460 from the member tees and too many people can hit the green (or think they can!) in two causing delays on the tee.

There has been some concern from fellow GCAers/members concerning fairway narrowing ruining lines. The chair of greens assures me the fairways haven't changed at all the semi rough has been reduced to one 5yd cut then the thick stuff which apart from a few patches is pretty tame - zero rain for a month - this is part of 2011 qualifying work as another dry year would give no fairway/rough definition. So the only difference from 2009 is the width of the semi.

RStG - 4th spoilt by the par 5 set up for the last Open lets pray they make it back into a good par 4.

Chappers

The right bunker on #3 shouldn't be trifled with now as there is precious little room there.  With the hole being very reachable in two and in a moderate downwind breeze reachable with something like 7 wood short of the bunker and hybrid to the green and with the second blind either way - why bother taking that bunker on?  I went left off the tee with a hybrid and hit a choked 5 iron to hollow right of the green.  Mind, I knew it was there as a collectiion point from previous plays and it was a piece of piss birdie.  Personally, I think that forward bunker slops up the look of the hole.  I fear Deal is on the we are a championship course kick and therefore need to be a long course - a pity that if its true.  

To my way of thinking it is the approach which needs sand - likely 25 yards short of the green.  This is a strategy used very well at Princes that could work well at Deal too.  In general, I thought the bunker placement at Princes was superior to Deal's especially in keen conditions.  

I don't know if the fairways have been narrowed, but there is no question in my mind that rough is a problem at Deal.  It isn't a huge deal, but it needs attention.

Finally - Deal  makes my 25 best courses, but  not my 25 favourite courses.  BUt like Yeamans Hall it is the sort of course I think over time one couild learn to love.  


Tuco

Deal as the last game?  Not a chance.  North Berwick would get that honour 7 days a week over Deal.  


Scott

I like the 9th as is - it may be my favourite hole on the course.  There is nothing wrong with the odd red herring bunker.  

Didn't we have some sort of bet concerning Deal? I can't recall what it was.


JNC

There is no chance of me joining Deal.  I am cutting back on golf, not quitting.  Where Deal is located essentially means I would rarely get down there because I need to spend the night.  

Ciao
« Last Edit: July 08, 2010, 03:32:32 AM by Sean Arble »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Scott Warren

  • Karma: +0/-0
No, we had a bet about Silloth. If you like it more than St Enodoc you shout me a £50 game of golf, if you like St E better, I shout you. Based on your own measure of what is important. Get ye north before October!

9th at Deal might be your favourite? Can you flesh that out? How? Why?

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
No, we had a bet about Silloth. If you like it more than St Enodoc you shout me a £50 game of golf, if you like St E better, I shout you. Based on your own measure of what is important. Get ye north before October!

9th at Deal might be your favourite? Can you flesh that out? How? Why?

Scott

Check that - the 10th is what I had in mind.  

You are right, the 9th is a bit of an odd duck.  I always felt like this was a good opportunity for a double dogleg effect if the green were 10 or so yards right and fairly narrow pointing toward the corner fairway bunker.  In any case, the hole is too similar to #11 and it seems there is more space on #9 to create something different.  

Thats right about the bet.  I won't make it to Silloth before next June/July.  So the bet will have to be extended.  Besides, £50 may go further in Oz.  

What do you think about the 8th?  It seems like it is very nearly a superb hole, but for some reason I can't quite figure out why it isn't.  In fact, holes 7-11 just don't seem to hang together very well.  I know you have advocated changes previously, but I can't recall what they were.  I know some of this is down to the back and forth nature of these holes, but without the ehaving land it seems the designers ran out of ideas - with #10 being the obvious exception, perhaps the 7th as well.

BTW  Isn't it time one of you Dealers writes a a fresh piece on the course?   I couldn't find any profile in the back pages except Tuco's, which while good, could do with a sprucing up.

Ciao    
« Last Edit: July 08, 2010, 04:09:19 AM by Sean Arble »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Scott Warren

  • Karma: +0/-0
I've considered doing something. But I keep noticing new and different things. I'm thinking of waiting until the end of my stay and writing something in the vein of "two years of getting to know you".

8-11 is definitely the lesser stretch, but for the land those holes are on Braid did some pretty good stuff.

10 I love and 11 is a more functional and strategically sound version of what 9 tries to be.

8 & 9 need work, IMO.

I think 8 could do with losing the front right bunker to allow the ball to be bounced on when it's downwind and/or the pin is at the front.

I'd like to see the greenside bunkers realigned on the 9th to make it so challenging that fairway bunker becomes integral to having the A1 angle to the green.

Mark Chaplin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Sean,

I'm not sure where you are coming from about rough and length, sadly modern equipment requires some length to make a course up to "championship" standard. Next week we have the Tillman Trophy average handicap +2 and in the next couple of years we host the Carris Trophy, Open Qualifying and The Amateur so we are an event course whether people like it or not. 6800 off the stones and firm conditions and you are left with a pitch and putt. The fairway corridors average 45 yards so the premium on driving isn't extreme.

Deals weakness IMO is the fairway bunkering, from the back tees the bunkering on #2 finishes at 260, #7 270, #9 240 or new back tee 280, #10 260, #11 260, #13 230 and #15 260 yards. These numbers catch the better members but for young bucks are a line off the tee not a danger.

In the past year I've played a number of Open and US Open venues and the bunkering is all 280-320 from the tees leaving Deal rather defenceless from the driver for the better player, fortunately our superb green complexes even the score a touch.
Cave Nil Vino

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Sean,

I'm not sure where you are coming from about rough and length, sadly modern equipment requires some length to make a course up to "championship" standard. Next week we have the Tillman Trophy average handicap +2 and in the next couple of years we host the Carris Trophy, Open Qualifying and The Amateur so we are an event course whether people like it or not. 6800 off the stones and firm conditions and you are left with a pitch and putt. The fairway corridors average 45 yards so the premium on driving isn't extreme.

Deals weakness IMO is the fairway bunkering, from the back tees the bunkering on #2 finishes at 260, #7 270, #9 240 or new back tee 280, #10 260, #11 260, #13 230 and #15 260 yards. These numbers catch the better members but for young bucks are a line off the tee not a danger.

In the past year I've played a number of Open and US Open venues and the bunkering is all 280-320 from the tees leaving Deal rather defenceless from the driver for the better player, fortunately our superb green complexes even the score a touch.

Chappers

You forget about the wind.  Burnham hosted the Tillman last year and only two guys went under par over four days and that was on a 6800 yard course.  Burnham and Deal are pretty darn close in terms of diffiiculty.  Still, the club added another 150 yards as a knee jerk reaction to -6 winning and to upgrade for the Brabazon next year.  Its silly when one considers some of the best amateurs around teed it up and the average of the top 10 was over 2 over par.  Don't tell me you too ave fallen for the length argument?  

I agree, Deal would be better if rebunkered, but not to suit excellent amateurs, but good club players.  

Ciao
« Last Edit: July 08, 2010, 06:02:44 AM by Sean Arble »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

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