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JNC Lyon

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Re: KENT KALEIDOSCOPE or I Was Wrong
« Reply #125 on: September 14, 2010, 03:00:33 PM »
John et al - courses evolve, if we agree the bunkering is probably about right then the 20 changes in bunkering since I joined in 1999 were all good moves to get to this position, at the time of changes some people would have been complaining about messing with the course. There are also around a dozen new tees, some longer others moved and some for seniors/ladies. the greens have been allowed to get bigger again creating excellent new pins on 3 front right and 7 & 13 back right.

Looking at plans from 100 years ago there have been literally hundreds of changes to the course.

My point is golf courses are living breathing things that do not stand still.

Mark,

I like the current bunkering of the course well enough.  I would have to know exactly what those changes were between 1999 and now to judge them effectively.  My stance is that the bunkering is not the point of Deal, and the course might even be better off without a few of the bunkers that exist now.  That being said, I like the course the way it is.  I would look at any future changes with a very critical eye.

How far over has the 3rd green moved?  I remember from my last visit in May that there was plenty of space for an awesome front-right hole location.
"That's why Oscar can't see that!" - Philip E. "Timmy" Thomas

Mark Chaplin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: KENT KALEIDOSCOPE or I Was Wrong
« Reply #126 on: September 14, 2010, 03:13:13 PM »
Front right on 3 is slowly being grown out, there was a great pin there last weekend for Scott's stag that I'd never played before.

I popped down today to meet Mike Whitaker, Bill McBride, Joe Beuler and Craig Disher. As I arrived the Duke of York's standard was flying as he was hosting an event at the club, nice touch for our guests. Other than Mike the boys had flown into LGW this morning and were gagging to get out into a 25mph south westerly. Sadly I was short of time so could only watch a keenly fought first hole where Craig managed to sneak a win in ......

Great to see everyone and sad to be mising BUDA. 
Cave Nil Vino

Sean_A

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Re: KENT KALEIDOSCOPE or I Was Wrong
« Reply #127 on: September 14, 2010, 06:15:30 PM »
Tuco and Sean,

Would you both agree that no more bunkers are needed at Deal?  I think some of these bunker schemes are overbearing and unnecessary.  Deal does not need more bunkers.  Deal relies on wind, terrain, and especially the GREENS for its defense.  Why distract from these three things?

JNC

I don't think Deal needs more bunkers and I don't think it would be any worse off with less (which of course begs the question of why some bunkers "are needed").  But I am an extreme minimalist when it comes to sand, espcially on land as good as Deal's.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: KENT KALEIDOSCOPE or I Was Wrong
« Reply #128 on: May 23, 2011, 10:27:11 AM »
Made it back to Deal this past weekend.  The Dealies managed to organize terrific weather yet again and one Mr Gould was on hand to spin out stories like only folks of his generation can.  We all sat listening eagerly before lunch when quite out of the blue Mr Gould mentions taking up golf in 1934 at Walton Heath under the tuition of one James Braid.  I gave a zowie look to Sheehy just as he was messing up his face in a mixture of disbelief and awe.  Its sounds dopey, but the connection(s) intertwining golfers past and present never felt more real.  Anyway, I updated the Deal section of photos.  Take a look back on page 1.

Ciao
« Last Edit: April 06, 2015, 04:19:38 AM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: KENT KALEIDOSCOPE or I Was Wrong
« Reply #129 on: May 24, 2011, 02:06:50 AM »
Made it back to Deal this past weekend.  The Dealies managed to organize terrific weather yet again and one Mr Gould was on hand to spin out stories like only folks of his generation can.  We all sat listening eagerly before lunch when quite out of the blue Mr Gould mentions taking up golf in 1934 at Walton Heath under the tuition of one James Braid.  I gave a zowie look over at SWAG Sheehy just as he messing up his face in a mixture of disbelief and awe.  Its sounds dopey, but the connection(s) intertwining golfers past and present never felt more real.  Anyway, I updated the Deal section of photos.  Take a look.

Ciao

Listening to "Gouldy" was a real highlight of the weekend. I challenge any club to name a character as charming / interesting etc. At 84 years of age, he played 54 holes carrying his own bag - also, I have seen people stop at the halfway hut for a quick pint, not for an entire bottle of Rose! That seems to be the way of things at Deal, I am discovering...

Sean, could you not have made one paltry mention of my eagle at 6?!!

SWAG

Oh yeah, Sheehy had a very fine eagle on #6.  Pretty as a picture it was soaring over the hill.  However, as beautiful as that tee shot was, the interesting thing is the ball landed on a tee not more than 10 feet from the hole.  I did notice that Sheehy didn't putt the ball as it lay.  

Ciao
« Last Edit: April 06, 2015, 04:20:17 AM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

James Boon

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Re: KENT KALEIDOSCOPE or I Was Wrong
« Reply #130 on: May 24, 2011, 03:49:00 AM »
Sean,

Thanks for the updated pics. Always good to see pictures of Deal and hear stories of the club and its members!

Sean, could you not have made one paltry mention of my eagle at 6?!!

Modest Mr Sheehy, very modest...  ;D

Cheers,

James
2023 Highlights: Hollinwell, Brora, Parkstone, Cavendish, Hallamshire, Sandmoor, Moortown, Elie, Crail, St Andrews (Himalayas & Eden), Chantilly, M, Hardelot Les Pins

"It celebrates the unadulterated pleasure of being in a dialogue with nature while knocking a ball round on foot." Richard Pennell

Scott Warren

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Re: KENT KALEIDOSCOPE or I Was Wrong
« Reply #131 on: May 24, 2011, 08:31:14 AM »
James,

You'll just have to be content with being one of the few people to drive (and hold) the green from the members' tee.

Of course you totally gagged on the 10ft eagle putt, but let's not allow that to overshadow your achievement in earning the 10ft eagle putt! ;D

Brian: Early in my time at Deal I played with a pair of members who between them belonged to the R&A and HCEG. We met up at 8am for breakfast and with their bacon and egg rolls one ordered a double vodka and cranberry and the other a very large sherry. At the hut they split a bottle of red, while a former captain and his wife joined us and walked 10-12 while drinking a glass of red each. I was astounded, but after that I realised many Deal members only play golf as something to do between drinks. Of course my introduction to the club was meeting a still very drunk Mark Chaplin in the carpark of the Royal Hotel at 8am on a Saturday, so really I was a bit slow on the uptake.

Scott Warren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: KENT KALEIDOSCOPE or I Was Wrong
« Reply #132 on: May 24, 2011, 08:37:56 AM »
Sean,

I'm inclined to agree with much of your commentary and I must say I am pleased to see the club move up to 1* status in your book.

I'd quibble with you on the merits of the 14th, but all in all it's nice to see you sipping more plentifully from the kool aid.

I've often thought of the unfortunate similarities of the 9th and 11th. To me the obvious solution is to re-route the 9th fairway about 50m left, through the much more undulating ground to the left of the cavernous fairway trap, or by building a tee on the 11th another 30m along the sea wall to generate a left-to-right shape (with the fairway bunker also relocated to the right).

Those holes are fine holes for the land they are on, but I am not convinced one or both couldn't be improved.

The drive bunkers on 15 are just confusing because if you take them on you're in knee-high rough.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: KENT KALEIDOSCOPE or I Was Wrong
« Reply #133 on: May 24, 2011, 05:09:56 PM »
Scott

Yes, the 14th.  Two issues really.  With only three par 3s I don't think a long one is a good plan.  Placing a long par 3 in that stretch coming back isn't really helping to create a good ebb and flow.  A short par 3 is a good opportunity for a breather. 

The back n' forth at the far end is a bit of a let down, but these are okay holes.  Only 9 and 11 are just too similar.  Maybe the 9th can be pushed further left.  I didn't explore this land very well, but it is low lying compared to the fairway - no?  If this is the case, I would not be keen for another patch of very lush meadowy fairway to be created.  The course has a problem with this already as there are several of these areas.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Scott Warren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: KENT KALEIDOSCOPE or I Was Wrong
« Reply #134 on: May 24, 2011, 05:58:14 PM »
That being so, Sean. In either of the most typical winds you've probably hit roughly 9i, 7i or 7i, 6i at 4 and 8.

As for a breather, 16 and 17 are both short for their par, though still can trip you up if you lose focus.

With 4 and 8 both measuring about 150 yards, I don't where it would be preferable for 14 to be shorter.

Noel Freeman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: KENT KALEIDOSCOPE or I Was Wrong
« Reply #135 on: May 24, 2011, 07:24:00 PM »
Here I go again... Ah Sean, why must you awaken Tuco from slumber


Yes 9 and 11 are alike. But the angles for the tee shot are different and #11 has the Ancient highway to fiddle with if you try to run an approach thru.. Unlikely but still.

#14-- what's not to like.. The left side of the hole where many a chip is needed is a wonderful recovery area.  The green also has merit for slope etc. Sand and hummocks right. You miss your long iron or hybrid and this hole takes a pound of flesh.

#15--you are whinging about the fairway bunkers. Come on, the 15th is all about the crazy fairway contours and moguls, plus your ability to hit the 2nd shot correctly.  In a northerly you have to die it right before the green and let the contours run it on or you will be in the hay past the green. It is a delicate shot, trust me.  In the SW wind, you can still die it there with a run-up but more likely it is tough to judge the correct length of the approach.  Also, I've been in the left bunker tons of time, there is some contour before the green which shunts you there and that is bogey city as the green runs away from you.. 15 is brilliant.

Deal has it all and a great clubhouse,pro and historian too..

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: KENT KALEIDOSCOPE or I Was Wrong
« Reply #136 on: May 25, 2011, 01:55:45 AM »
Scott

Yes, that is a problem with shortening #14 and part of the reason why I think the 3s as a set are not impressive - definitely the weak link of Deal.  

Tuco

Yes, 9 and 11 have slightly different driving angles, but too similar with too similar a fairway bunker pattern to be repeated twice in three holes.   15 is a very good hole not made any better by the bunkers.

Ciao
« Last Edit: May 25, 2011, 02:56:24 AM by Sean Arble »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

James Boon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: KENT KALEIDOSCOPE or I Was Wrong
« Reply #137 on: May 25, 2011, 09:10:11 AM »
Deal has 3 World Class holes for me, in the 3rd, 6th and 16th, but its that run of tough holes on the back nine that really make the course one heck of a challenge, so don't go shortening the 14th! I don't see anything wrong with a long par 3 in amongst that run of tough holes?

You'll just have to be content with being one of the few people to drive (and hold) the green from the members' tee.

 :-[

Of course you totally gagged on the 10ft eagle putt, but let's not allow that to overshadow your achievement in earning the 10ft eagle putt! ;D


>:(

Cheers,

James


2023 Highlights: Hollinwell, Brora, Parkstone, Cavendish, Hallamshire, Sandmoor, Moortown, Elie, Crail, St Andrews (Himalayas & Eden), Chantilly, M, Hardelot Les Pins

"It celebrates the unadulterated pleasure of being in a dialogue with nature while knocking a ball round on foot." Richard Pennell

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: KENT KALEIDOSCOPE or I Was Wrong
« Reply #138 on: May 25, 2011, 11:02:39 AM »
Deal has 3 World Class holes for me, in the 3rd, 6th and 16th, but its that run of tough holes on the back nine that really make the course one heck of a challenge, so don't go shortening the 14th! I don't see anything wrong with a long par 3 in amongst that run of tough holes?

Boony

I don't know, my list of possibly great holes at Deal are 3, 4, 6, 15, 16 and 17.  I couldn't say for sure if any are world class (is this different from great?) except probably 6. But I like the drive at 10 as the best tee shot on the course and probably 18 as the best approach. 

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Mark Chaplin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: KENT KALEIDOSCOPE or I Was Wrong
« Reply #139 on: May 25, 2011, 01:30:11 PM »
The prevailing wind tends to be against for the second shots on 9 & 11. The last 7 holes tend to have the wind from 2 o'clock.
14 tends to play with wind from the right.

1-7 and 14-18 are holes over a 100 years old (other than Sandy Parlour) so I doubt they'll be any major changes!
Cave Nil Vino

Noel Freeman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: KENT KALEIDOSCOPE or I Was Wrong
« Reply #140 on: May 25, 2011, 01:32:20 PM »
Deal's routing cannot be criticized, especially if you look at the dunescape, when it came into play etc. Besides if you criticize  Deal's rounting, you must critique TOC as they are basically the same, narrow out and back with a loop at the end. Deal is the same.. Out to 9, loop 10-11, 12 back home

JNC Lyon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: KENT KALEIDOSCOPE or I Was Wrong
« Reply #141 on: May 25, 2011, 02:10:09 PM »
The routing at Deal is the way it is because of where the sandy dunes-land falls on that property.  If you walk a few yards inland from the edge of the course, you come upon billiard table-flat farmland that drains poorly.  The course is shaped the way it is to make the most of the links land at the edge of the English Channel.  The routing came into that form out of necessity rather than a desire to have an out-and-back configuration.  Furthermore, the course has enough turns and loops in it to make it so the wind is ever changing.  The only time a player gets a prolonged stretch in one direction is 12-18, and the wind usually changes at least once in that time.  Sean, et al, if you think the routing is weak at Deal, I'd like to see a better suggestion on how to change it.
"That's why Oscar can't see that!" - Philip E. "Timmy" Thomas

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: KENT KALEIDOSCOPE or I Was Wrong
« Reply #142 on: May 25, 2011, 03:15:48 PM »
Settle down Dealies.  The routing is a product of the property.  On the plus side, the property elevation changes are ideal for golf.  On the negative side, the shape of the property dictates the routing.  Consequently, the holes don't provide a lot of wind variation.  Yes, TOC (and Burnham) suffers the same problem.  I have said this again and again.  Now, its hard to fathom how guys that don't mind the routing at TOC and give it very high marks yet give Deal only good marks.  I can understand some leniency due to originality; the double greens and fairway pots make up a huge percentage of that originality.  But, I can't see 3-4 DS point difference between the two courses. This is especially the case when one considers the 2-6 stretch and the 9th at TOC.  In terms of quality I think TOC just pips Deal, but they are in the same general class, which is very high.  Now again, my personal preference is for more wind variation and I especially don't like several holes in a row playing with the same wind.  You Dealies can go back and forth about this forever and a day, but there it is.

Ciao  
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Noel Freeman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: KENT KALEIDOSCOPE or I Was Wrong
« Reply #143 on: May 25, 2011, 04:11:52 PM »
I for one like the out and back nature.. I know what I'm going to get, and I know what need to be played.  Also, I must admit this, I like playing the course more in a northerly.  Yes it removes the sheer delight of trying to drive the 6th but it makes the course more interesting to play with the shot values reversed..

Mark Woodger

Re: KENT KALEIDOSCOPE or I Was Wrong
« Reply #144 on: May 25, 2011, 06:28:41 PM »
Nice to see a bit of discussion around Deal. And i like the term Dealies also. :)

Personally i like the challenge of all those holes back into the wind on the back 9 with the 14th being an integral part of that. The fact there is no rest bite is an important part of what makes it such a challenge. One I often fail, but a fun challenge nonetheless.

Noel thanks for tipa on playing 15. i will take that onboard next time i am there.

Also does anybody have any thoughts on the 7th both as a hole and the best strategy to play it? I have never figured out the best way to play the second shot.


Mark Chaplin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: KENT KALEIDOSCOPE or I Was Wrong
« Reply #145 on: May 25, 2011, 06:40:56 PM »
MW - I recommend 3 wood aimed at the left centre fairway bunker to leave a shot of around 120yds. Aim at the left side of the green to use the back slop (if necessary). Do not chase the lovely back right pin position as miss it long or right and you are dead.
Cave Nil Vino

Scott Warren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: KENT KALEIDOSCOPE or I Was Wrong
« Reply #146 on: May 25, 2011, 07:20:37 PM »
MW - On seven, I think the play depends on the pin.

To a front pin, I like to drive it down the left to take the front right away-slope out of play.

To a centre or back pin, I like to be down the right so I can hit my approach at the backboard slope on the back left, which feeds to most middle and back pin positions provided you hit the correct part ohe slope, but even if you go a bit long or short it tends to leave a reasonably straightforward birdie try from inside 15-20ft.

Front pins are easily the most difficult, IMO, especially downwind. The front right slope, the false front, the bunker left... there is a lot that can go wrong.

Scott Warren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: KENT KALEIDOSCOPE or I Was Wrong
« Reply #147 on: May 25, 2011, 07:45:47 PM »
Brian S:

Quote
I have heard courses being described as greater than the sum of their individual parts - could there be an argument that Deal is less than the combination of its individually great holes due to an unbalanced out and back routing? I see what you're saying, James, in that the course needs that long par 3 to provide overall balance (as the front nine is far easier to score on), but after coming off a drubbing at 12 and 13, one is a bit weary standing on the 14th faced with that shot...in an ideal world, there would be one long difficult par 3 on the front 9 with 14 being the breather. I guess you could call 16 and 17 breathers but they don't feel that way with a stiff breeze in your face standing on the tee! But then I am working on the assumption that the prevailing wind is in your face on those holes - others say differently...

Now that you're a member, I hope you'll head down frequently, year-round and in doing so discover the myth of the wind always blowing into you on the back nine is just that - a myth.

As Mark says, when the wind blows from that general direction it more often than not is more into you approaching 9 and 11 than approaching the holes on the run home.

On 13, in two years I was cautious of driving into the cross bunkers more often than I was worried about having a long iron approach shot.

On 15, I can count on one hand the times I hit more than a 6i in provided I found at l;east the semi-rough, and often I reckon that near vertical slope on the dune in the middle of the fairway prevented that being an 8i.

On 17, again, maybe twice in 40-odd rounds I hit more than a 9i in there, and generally I was taking a bit off a driver so I didn't risk my tee shot going into the cross bunkers.

The other myth is that all of those holes play in the exact same direction and that the wind will blow from the same direction for the entire back nine.

I never knew the wind at Deal to remain even in direction or intensity for more than half an hour at a time.

As for the direction of the holes, if you consider the lines on the map below showing the shot angles from 12-18, you're hardly playing in exactly the same direction, shot after shot, for seven holes. Add in the fact the wind is going to shift during that 90-minute stretch, the sheer quality and exhileration of the approaches to (and recovery shots around the greens at) 12, 15, 16 and 17 coupled with the great challenge of 14 and 18 and I am convinced anyone who wants to quible about the closing stretch at Deal is simply trying to find something to criticise.

14-18 is one of the finest closing stretches in all of golf.


Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: KENT KALEIDOSCOPE or I Was Wrong
« Reply #148 on: May 26, 2011, 02:11:41 AM »
Scott

Therein lies the difference in our perceptions of the back nine.  You don't mind the generally VERY similar wind pattern from 12-18.  The subtle differences of wind direction are enough to satisfy you.  Fair enough.  I don't find this setup anywhere near ideal even if it is Deal.   

Point of interest, my understanding was that folks were saying the prevailing wind was generally downwind on the back nine.  Now it makes much more sense to me.  Yes, the wind, every time I have played Deal over the course of 20 years has been quartering off the right or into coming home.  Sunday was the first time I encountered a decent wind off the right and I found this far easier to cope with than into.  In fact, for me, the front nine was far more challenging with the wind off the left and #8 straight downwind.

NW - I like your "rest bite" quote.  That is very Rihcelinesque.

Ciao
« Last Edit: May 26, 2011, 02:17:16 AM by Sean Arble »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Scott Warren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: KENT KALEIDOSCOPE or I Was Wrong
« Reply #149 on: May 26, 2011, 03:17:45 AM »
Brian,

I completely agree there are weaknesses, but the "long run home into a punishing wind" is played up a lot more than is the reality. The truth is it doesn't blow from that direction as often or as strongly as some people like to make out and as Mark C added, the wind we do get a lot from that direction is more from 2 o'clock than straight into your face for the most part.

I agree a routing that allows the wind to hit you from different angles every hole or every few holes is a fantastic strength, I simply don't think Deal suffers too greatly because while 14 holes play to two broad compass points, 8-11 play to the other points of the compass, two each way, and the routing changes direction six times during the round (after the 1st, 7th, 8th, 9th, 10th and 11th holes). It's not a case of one wind direction for nine holes and then another wind direction for nine holes.

In my opinion, Deal's greatest weakness is the lacklustre land over which 8-11 are played, as well as the similarities between 9 and 11 and between the drives at 13 and 15. The 8th hole is a weakness. That's really it, IMO, and my list of its strengths would be far lengthier and the factors far more significant.

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