Aronimink or Merion?

[D_Malley]

"As a Member of Aronimink I will not address what might or might not be a better course.  In terms of hosting a US Open Aronimink could be the perfect venue. Plenty of land for crowds, plenty of space for corportate tents, merchandise tents, etc.  Lots of parking in the area, an enthusiastic membership, etc. Couple this with a challenging golf course and you have what is probably the perfect venue in the Philadelphia area to host an open.  Merion is putting Corporate tents at Haverford college which means anyone in the tents will not see any golf from there and have to be bussed to the course."
Fairways and Greens
Dave

Dave, are you concerned at all with the fact that the players at the AT&T were able to hit wedges into so many of the par 4's at AGC?
or that they had to slow the greens down in order to tuck the hole locations in spots that were inaccessable even with a wedge.

[JR Potts]

Davis Love did drive #10 green, from the back tee, with a one iron, back on that day you spoke of.

How long a shot was that? 

Same back tee?

No way he did from that back tee....unless the fairways had no grass, it hadn't rained in 2 months, it was straight down wind in the middle of a non-rain event noreaster and he bounced it off of several sprinkler housings.

[JESII]

I don't know Ryan, I didn't see it but I believe it. At that same time he hit a 4 iron over the 5th at Pine Valley from the tips, which are 220 to the front edge uphill. #10 at Merion is about 280 to the front from the back tee...and those trees were probably much less of a factor 25 years ago.

[TEPaul]

Considering that some on here have gotten so finnicky about "facts" or "PHACTS" etc there is no need at all to continue to speculate whether or not Love hit a 1 iron onto the 10th green back then in the mid-1980s. All we need to do is ask Chet Walsh, Gui Costin or Love's caddie that day if he did or didn't. All of them are still here and they were all in that group that day.

Or better yet, I could always just call Davis himself and ask him!  I did not see him again for over twenty years (other than at the Sunnehanna) and until a project in Maryland just a year or so ago but he did remember all about his trip to Philadelphia and staying with us.

[JESII]

Nobody forgets their first $9 bottle of Cabernet...

[JR Potts]

That is a 309 yard shot from the tees I played....barely downhill.  I don't care who you are.....1 Irons with 1980 balls don't and can't go that far.

Just sayin'.

But, after spending a couple of days at Pine Valley with one of TEPaul's co-members who had nothing but nice things to say - I don't want to question his "PHACTS".   

[TEPaul]

"That is a 309 yard shot from the tees I played....barely downhill.  I don't care who you are.....1 Irons with 1980 balls don't and can't go that far.

Just sayin'.

But, after spending a couple of days at Pine Valley with one of TEPaul's co-members who had nothing but nice things to say - I don't want to question his "PHACTS".    "



Ryan:

What are you saying the "PHACTS" are or what are you saying someone said the "PHACTS" are?

I sure never said or implied Davis Love III drove the 10th green with a 1 iron.

[TEPaul]

Sully:

I don't know why I happened to be in the right place at particular times but I actually was there following Love when he hit that remarkable shot on #5 at Pine Valley in the Walker Cup.

I didn't know what he hit there but perhaps 15 years later I ran into his caddie who confirmed it was a 4 iron.  

Since he had stayed with us at some point previous to that I followed him at PV during that singles match of his (I wish I could remember that GB&I guy he was playing that day and outdriving his driver with a 1 iron by about 30 yards).

Anyway, I was standing just over the berm on that tee on the right and all I could see was the top of his body on that swing on the 5th hole. The tees were back at about 240 and it was some massive swing. His shot actually ended up over the green and hung up on the top of one of those back bunkers over the back right of the green. His opponent was on the green and made a par. Davis sort of stubbed his chip shot and made bogie. I think that was the only hole he lost. That match did go around to the 16th where Davis hit a sort of low stinger 1 iron from the new tip tees for the Walker Cup and had a 9 iron in.

I will never forget the look on the faces of the USGA guys during that match----they seemed stunned, almost like they were looking through a window to the future.

After that exhibition of ultra length I understand they asked him if he would come to Far Hills so they could test him at the tech center for some kind of extroplation distance factor but Davis declined because he was hurt and played that Walker Cup with a taped wrist. It caused him to have to pull out of the US Amateur which followed shortly after which I believe his Walker Cup teammate Sam Randolph won. As I recall the real American star of that winning US team at Pine Valley was Scott Verplank. The only other ones I can remember right now were Duffy Waldorf, Bob Lewis and Jay Sigel. Oh yeah, there was a guy called Burroughs.

His clubs in the Walker Cup at PV were Berylium Pings (he never used a wood) and I remember he had Titleist gloves with the labels removed (you could actually see where the stitch marks were). He was also using 90 comprehension Titleists which seems a bit odd as most long hitters used the 100s back then.

[Sean Leary]

Davis was insanely long back then. I remember reading an article about him in SI I believe that talked about it...

[DMoriarty]

"That is a 309 yard shot from the tees I played....barely downhill.  I don't care who you are.....1 Irons with 1980 balls don't and can't go that far.

Unless they put a new tee on the back porch of the house behind, a carry of 309 would have put you on Ardmore Avenue.   A 280 carry would have safely carried the bunker.

[JESII]

Google Earth measures the back tee to the front right corner of the green at 280...for what it's worth, in a tournament there in the late 90's (pre-PRO V1) another young guy who was long, but not Davis Love long hit his 3 wood right on the front (just slung a draw around those early trees and carried just short of the green surface) and made the putt. I think we'll see a fair amount of 3 woods aimed at this green in a US Open.

[TEPaul]

The remarks in that box that appears to be from me is not something I said. It is a quote of something Ryan Potts said earlier. Anyway, the question was whether Davis Love hit that green with a 1 iron in the 1980s. There are at least four direct sources to determine if that is true or not.

[TEPaul]

Sully:

I'd be interested in double checking Google Earth's measurement of the 10th hole. And I wonder where Ryan Potts came up with that yardage of 309.

I'm going to Merion today anyway and even though the club does not allow rangefinders there for play I'll see if I can find one and then go out there and measure various yardages such as the depths of the tees, the distance to various things like the right front, to carry that greenside bunker and even to Ardmore Ave over the green. It should be a good double check on the Google Earth measurement tool that people like Moriarty who has been there, what once, tend to use on here to measure various distances of Merion East?

[JESII]

Tom,

Throw me in with Moriarty for using Google Earth...it's not going to be too far off.

[D_Malley]

unless they have changed the config of the front bunker
you never needed to carry it, to drive that green.
most balls that i have seen reach the green have bounced on

[TEPaul]

D. Malley:

For one thing, in the last few years they also restored a considerable portion of the front of #10 green to greenspace.

[DMoriarty]

If a rangefinder gives a  different measure  then the rangefinder is wrong or being operated incorrectly.

[JESII]

Give me a break with this petty crap on both sides...

[TEPaul]

Sully:

One of the potential reasons why the distances on some holes may seem skewed, particularly distances used in the past, is most courses and most raters and such used to measure the distance of holes right down their center lines and obviously with a hole like Merion East's #10 that could add considerable additional yardage compared to a measurement shot from the tee right at that green via either Google Earth or a rangefinder.

[Terry Lavin]

Aronimink or Merion?  That's an awesome "problem" to have, that's for sure.  That's like "Medinah or Olympia?" or "Chicago Golf or Shoreacres?" here in Chicago.  They both seem pretty phenomenal to moi.

[JESII]

Tom,

Agreed - that's what was curious in you challenging Ryan Potts 309 number...do you think it's measurable different from that when played down the fairway then into the green?

I'll bet 280 is within a couple percent of what you get using a rangefinder.


Terry,

They are...but the question was which for a US Open...thoughts?

[JR Potts]

Here's the scorecard for Merion.  310.

Has Davis Love's magic 1-iron landed yet?   

[DMoriarty]

Ryan, I think they measured the hole as a dogleg.  In the following photo, the yellow line is 280 yards; the white line is 310, with the elbow at 250 off the tee.   Believe it or not, they used to list this hole at 330 yards and apparently from one tee up.   They had some strange ideas on measuring holes back then.

By the way, I am not defending the 1 iron claim, but rather just trying to get the facts straight on the distance.  


__________________________________________________________________________

Give me a break with this petty crap on both sides...

I understand your frustration but we have been through this before.  TEPaul has been casting doubt (or outright denying)  the accuracy of this measure for close to five years now, and threatening to leave his computer to measure it on the ground.  Here he is from November 2006.  

Moriarty you argumentative little twit, how about measuring the distance Jones's drives went in 1930s with a couple of sophisticated rangefinders? If we can agree where he teed off from on those holes why would you have a problem with determing as 'verifiable fact' the distance he hit those drives that way? Don't you think it would be a bit more reliable measuring a drive on the ground than via Google Earth or the USGS?

Don't you think it is about time he did it or dropped it?

[JR Potts]

DMoriarty - thanks for that.  I have no issue with your measurement..but I do notice that your line goes right through the middle of that huge tree on the left. 

And while it may not have been you who said that Love hit a magic one-iron on the green from the back tees...somebody said it.  And to whomever did, I call B/S.

[JESII]

Ryan,

It was done in the pre-PROV1 era so the balls could curve...even a little to the left if needed...seriously, I saw a guy much shorter than Love hit it on the green with a 3 wood so I don't know what to tell you but I believe he would have been capable. Actually doing it on his one try, I'm not guaranteeing that...


David,

I would suggest their silence on the length issue was a concession...take it as such.