Aronimink or Merion?

[Mike Cirba]

It's funny...I never heard anyone mention that Pebble Beach, at roughly the same length as Merion will be in 2013, was too short to hold another US Open.

Not sure it's playing as H. Chandler Egan envisioned it back in 1930, either.   

[DMoriarty]

It's funny...I never heard anyone mention that Pebble Beach, at roughly the same length as Merion will be in 2013, was too short to hold another US Open.

Not sure it's playing as H. Chandler Egan envisioned it back in 1930, either.  

I am not sure if it is playing as Egan envisioned it either, but I don't think that is the topic of this thread.

And Mike, I did mention that I wished the USGA would leave all the great courses alone, and this would of course include Pebble.   I would even let them keep Torrey and Bethpage so they wouldn't have to cancel the USOpen.  

Also, Pebble had some positive developments.  Kudos to the USGA for cutting the rough.  I hope it continues.

I don't think that Pebble had to resort to anything like what the USGA tried at the Walker Cup, did they?  And didn't Pebble add some crazy amount of distance for this Open?   Merion seems to be out of room to add, at least anywhere reasonable, and that is what worries me.  If they decide to protect par, what sort of crazy stuff will they come up with?  

[TEPaul]

"I don't think that Pebble had to resort to anything like what the USGA tried at the Walker Cup, did they?"


And what exactly was it that the USGA tried at the Walker Cup that they didn't resort to at the US Open at Pebble Beach? Aren't you the one who keeps yammering about everyone else providing "phacts"  before they make a statement?

"Objection Your Honor, what's the relevence of that statement? It sounds like the counselor is trying to put an opinion in the witness's mind or testimony."

[Sean Leary]

It's funny...I never heard anyone mention that Pebble Beach, at roughly the same length as Merion will be in 2013, was too short to hold another US Open.

Not sure it's playing as H. Chandler Egan envisioned it back in 1930, either.  

I am not sure if it is playing as Egan envisioned it either, but I don't think that is the topic of this thread.

And Mike, I did mention that I wished the USGA would leave all the great courses alone, and this would of course include Pebble.   I would even let them keep Torrey and Bethpage so they wouldn't have to cancel the USOpen.  

Also, Pebble had some positive developments.  Kudos to the USGA for cutting the rough.  I hope it continues.

I don't think that Pebble had to resort to anything like what the USGA tried at the Walker Cup, did they?  And didn't Pebble add some crazy amount of distance for this Open?   Merion seems to be out of room to add, at least anywhere reasonable, and that is what worries me.  If they decide to protect par, what sort of crazy stuff will they come up with?  

David,

Wasn't moving the tee up on 4 at PB similar to what they did with 10 at Merion? You also could somewhat compare going back on 3  with 17 at PB, no?

[TEPaul]

Sean Leary:

I was just about to post that but you beat me to it. Apparently Moriarty hasn't been paying attention in the last few years or he just doesn't understand these things. I'd say the latter is probably more likely but not by much.

[DMoriarty]

Wasn't moving the tee up on 4 at PB similar to what they did with 10 at Merion? You also could somewhat compare going back on 3  with 17 at PB, no?

Could be.  I thought of mentioning the 17th to Mike in response to his comment that no one complained about Pebble, but in my opinion that hole has been bad for many years now, so whether it should have or not, it didn't seem like as big a deal.   What did the hole play at Pebble?  225?   If memory serves, at Merion they pushed it back to 270+.     As for the 4th, where was the tee?   Was it close enough that they could hit irons to the green?    

Questions aside, you may be correct that the changes were somewhat comparable at Pebble, I really don't know.   I made the comment without considering  all the changes.   I am certainly not going to defend lengthening the 17th or shortening the 4th if it was close enough for an iron.    

[JESII]

I believe Dustin Johnson hit an iron onto #4 on Saturday...but it could have been from 275 considering the wind - firmness - and his length.

David, I think you are unreasonably bent about the goofy tees at Merion during the Walker Cup. Keep in mind this was a very small field match play event. Short of knowing the decision makers, I will guarantee these were not "test run" tee placements. This was variety for the sake of Match Play. I have no idea if they worked.


Ryan, I can't see that picture - what do I need to do?

[Joe Bausch]

Ryan, I can't see that picture - what do I need to do?

I think this is the pic he wants to display:

[JESII]

I thought it might be, thanks Joe.

For what it's worth, I think it would be a mistake to provide a wide open look at this green. Forcing a shot shape occasionally doesn't bother me especially when it's to try to drive a par 4.

[JR Potts]

Thanks Joe.

My point being - given these trees, from the back tees, the hole isn't a drivable par 4.  A hook will run out way too much to land on the green.  The only way to get it there in my opinion is to hit a power fade to the left of the trees, over the halfway house and likely into the front bunker.....but given the severity of the green.....you have to be an idiot like me to try it.

And I don't have a problem with the big tree on the left - I just think the two little ones can go. 

Well, I guess I don't have a problem with any of them....as long as we're not trying to make a driveable par 4.

[TEPaul]

Sully:

I spent quite a lot of time around the 4th and 17th tees at Pebble and particularly during one practice round. I even have one of the competition cards around here somewhere but I didn't really look what it showed for #4 or #17.

Those two holes have an interesting tee arrangement now as they actually pretty much meld together in the back to form the beginning of an upside down L. If players were using the tips on #4 and #17 they are so close to each other the competitors would have to wait and alternate on them.

I do remember that the tips they used one day on #17 was 235 and most of the bigger hitters seemed to be trying to hit very high 4 irons.

I think the tips on #4 was something like 360 but the players must have known they might be using the next tee up at some point in the tournament because some were practicing from it and of course it was used one day. I recall it was 313. I think Dustin Johnson hit a 3 iron but it may've been a utility club to bounce the ball onto the green and sink the putt for eagle. From the back tee on #4 most all the players I saw seemed to hit a utility club over the cross bunker.

There are a couple of good candidates to try this kind of temptation wrinkle at Merion East perhaps in the Open such as #7, perhaps #8 and of course #10.

This kind of thing is definitely one of the new wrinkles in the set-up playbag of Mike Davis and it has produced some interesting results. You might remember in the '07 Open at Oakmont he tried it one day on both #2 and #14. #2 did tempt a pretty good number of players to try to drive the green, including Tiger but to Mike's amazement, I think, almost no one tried for #14 even though it was technically within the reach of some. And then you might remember he tried it one day on #17 with some very interesting results (do you remember what Furyk and Cabrera did?).

[TEPaul]

Ryan:

As to whether the 10th green is driveable from the tips, on that hole given those trees on the left I guess technically it would be possible to get a ball on the very right front (which was expanded considerably not that long ago) if you got lucky. In the '04 US Amateur I followed that ultra long hitting young man from Nebraska, John Hurley, and he hit a really pretty 3 wood from the tips with a nice draw and was right in front of the green. He could've putted it. But other than that if anyone actually tried to go further left and right at the middle of the green I doubt even a perfect shot would hold that green it is so shallow from that angle for a shot that long.

And then there is that famous story of Davis Love years ago during the one and only time he played Merion when he was still in college. He was basically teeing off with irons (as he did throughout in the Walker Cup at Pine Valley) and he had a great round going to that point (he ended up shooting a 64 on The East). They say he put an iron in the fairway and just for the helluva it they apparently asked him to try another shot at the green. I don't know if this is somewhat apocryphal or not but they say he teed up his persimmon driver and the ball was still in the air as it sailed over the green and right over Ardmore Ave on to #1 somewhere.  

[Rory Connaughton]

I cannot imagine any ball that hits 10 green on the fly from a club with a loft lower than a hybrid not bounding off onto Ardmore Ave.

[mike_malone]

 I'm dumbfounded by the admiration for #10 as a great hole. It doesn't pay to go for it and the proper layup to the right leaves one of the easiest entries to any green on the course---straight up the gut.

[Matt_Ward]

Not to change subjects a bit -- but the Phila area has been abandoned by the PGA Tour for quite some time. Unfortunately, it's sandwiched between the NYC area and what the Tour / USGA have done with the DC area - including Presidents Cups and the like.

I don't see a PGA coming to the area for quite some time and the USGA is joined at the hip with Merion. If the event in 2013 goes well then Merion will come back into the fold more regularly -- if that doesn't happen -- for a host of reasons -- then Aronimink becomes a suitable back-up.

The crowd turnout for the week was quite impressive and shows the golf passions are there.

[D_Malley]

#10 green can be hit with one shot, but really only the far right portion of the green will hold a drive with firm conditions. You can land short and bounce onto the far right side of the green.  It is not real easy to get down in two putts from there if the pin is on the left.  It is probably the toughest green on the course to read putts on with many subtle breaks.  

TEP
Davis Love did drive #10 green, from the back tee, with a one iron, back on that day you spoke of.

[DMoriarty]

David, I think you are unreasonably bent about the goofy tees at Merion during the Walker Cup. Keep in mind this was a very small field match play event. Short of knowing the decision makers, I will guarantee these were not "test run" tee placements. This was variety for the sake of Match Play. I have no idea if they worked.

You may be right and I hope you are.    And I should clarify that I don't mean to be so critical of the setup even at the Walker Cup.   It seems like Mike Davis is doing his best to bring some interesting choices back into the game.  My gripe is mainly with the equipment; it puts Davis in a very difficult if not impossible position on some of these courses.

I'm dumbfounded by the admiration for #10 as a great hole. It doesn't pay to go for it and the proper layup to the right leaves one of the easiest entries to any green on the course---straight up the gut.

Do you think it may have been a better hole when it took a solid, well aimed wood to get into the correct position?  And a layup with an iron left a longer shot from an awkward angle?

[mike_malone]

 The original #10 was probably much better.

[Sean Leary]

To a non GCAophile, the stretch from 7-13 can be underwhelming with only a single play....

[TEPaul]

"TEP
Davis Love did drive #10 green, from the back tee, with a one iron, back on that day you spoke of."


D. Malley:

I never heard that before.

You know that time Love shot that fantastic round (64) it was the first time he ever saw Merion. Actually he'd never been to Philadelphia before. He came up because he felt he would make the Walker Cup which was to be at Pine Valley and he wanted to see that course too.

He was asked up here by a young man (a junior golfer at the time) who had won the Pennsylvania Junior championship (and I believe the New Your Junior championship in the same year) and had consequently been invited to both the North/South and the Sunnehanna.

Anyway, he got to know Davis at the North South and invited him to Philly to play Merion and Pine Valley. Love and another Georgia golfer by the name of Peter Persons who also made the Walker Cup came and stayed with me and the lady I lived with then who happened to be the mother of that Pa Junior champion.

Davis was a junior at UNC at the time and his name had hit fame bigtime because he played in the Atlanta Classic tour event and the pros were totally stunned with how far he hit the ball on the range. They dubbed him "The Human Launching Pad" so he arrived in Philly with some fame and more than a little curiosity from golfers who'd just heard about him through the grapevine.

His scorecard of 64 hangs in the clubhouse and the two local amateurs he played with are good friends of mine, that junior golfer back then and local great player Chet Walsh and Peter Persons. I also know the pretty famous caddie who carried for Love that day----he's still around Merion today. I've talked to him some about certain parts of Love's round but never specifically if he put his 1 iron on the 10th green. But any of those guys sure would know.

By the way, I will never forget Davis Love from those five days he stayed with us way back then. He was an incredibly polite young man and quite shy and if anyone tried to engage him in conversation about his prodigous length he invariably tried to change the subject.

PS:
Here's another little item from that day Love shot the 64 during his one and only time at Merion. I knew the man who held the course record (I believe in a tie then or later with Ben Crenshaw). I thought Love tied his course record so I called him up and told him some ultra long kid from Georgia and UNC had just tied his record. He asked me what he shot and I told him a 64. He said Love should've sunk another putt because his record was a 63!  

By the way, that man holds a record at Merion East that will NEVER be broken. He shot 13 STRAIGHT ROUNDS under par (par is 70). His course record round (63) was in the Lesley Cup.

[Jim Nugent]

Davis Love did drive #10 green, from the back tee, with a one iron, back on that day you spoke of.

How long a shot was that? 

[Sean Leary]

Davis Love did drive #10 green, from the back tee, with a one iron, back on that day you spoke of.

How long a shot was that? 

Same back tee?

[TEPaul]

"To a non GCAophile, the stretch from 7-13 can be underwhelming with only a single play...."


Sean:

But that stretch which is commonly known as "The Short Stretch" essentially makes Merion East and its fascinating routing, and it also makes the basic sequence of that course what is often called "The Three Sets of Merion East."

What Nick Faldo had to say about that particular "short" stretch was most interesting!

[Dave_Miller]

Seems like Aronimink is much more of a modern day U.S. Open course than Merion, no? Other than the fact that David B. Fay wants to prove to the world that the USGA hasn't lost control of the equipment is there any good reason why they would go to Merion when they could have gone right down the road to Aronimink?

Don't get me wrong, Merion has lots of history, etc. but there comes a time when you just aren't a viable US Open site anymore. Doesn't mean you aren't a great course or club anymore but times change....

-John

As a Member of Aronimink I will not address what might or might not be a better course.  In terms of hosting a US Open Aronimink could be the perfect venue. Plenty of land for crowds, plenty of space for corportate tents, merchandise tents, etc.  Lots of parking in the area, an enthusiastic membership, etc. Couple this with a challenging golf course and you have what is probably the perfect venue in the Philadelphia area to host an open.  Merion is putting Corporate tents at Haverford college which means anyone in the tents will not see any golf from there and have to be bussed to the course.
Fairways and Greens
Dave

[Sean Leary]

"To a non GCAophile, the stretch from 7-13 can be underwhelming with only a single play...."


Sean:

But that stretch which is commonly known as "The Short Stretch" essentially makes Merion East and its fascinating routing, and it also makes the basic sequence of that course what is often called "The Three Sets of Merion East."

What Nick Faldo had to say about that particular "short" stretch was most interesting!

I agree Tom. I was out there with a  couple of really good players and they were underwhelmed with that stretch, that is all. But it was one round, the course was soft and it played as easy as it is going to get. I guarantee you with numerous plays that that opinion would change.