Aronimink or Merion?

[Mike Cirba]

Aside from some pretty humorous comments in his defense, I think what JPBlain is suggesting here about the venue has some merit, especially in terms of logistics and space.

From a golf course standpoint however, I think the distance issue is a moot point.

There is NO golf course on the planet that is going to provide a test of driving and overall approach distance for these guys.

None.

When Dustin Johnson can reach the 600+ uphill par five 9th at A'mink with a Driver- 4-iron, or JB Holmes hits driver 358 yards to leave a 200 approach at 16 into the wind, or when Justin Rose just continually carries all the bunkering schemes with impunity, the only way to actually have a tournament with challenge and interest is to have very firm, very contoured greensites that test distance and trajectory control, as well as putting.

A'mink is about 200 yards longer than Merion...that's one of these guys 8-iron shots.

[TEPaul]

" the only way to actually have a tournament with challenge and interest is to have very firm, very contoured greensites that test distance and trajectory control, as well as putting."


Michael:


THAT is pretty specifically what I've been saying for about ten years now with the definition of the "Ideal Maintenance Meld" (IMM) with those Tour type players on the type of courses and architecture we're discussing here.

Distance alone doesn't challenge those guys but the appropriate firm and fast greens with the appropriate firmness "through the green" and particularly in the approaches does, and particularly if the greens involved are truly good ones architecturally as most of Aronimink's are and Merion East's surely mostly are.

What we saw at the Pebble Open and again last weekend basically proved the case----eg distance isn't that important strategically to players like that because even when those guys had wedges in their hands they still had to think and play incredibly strategically or it was bound to cost them!

If Shaeffer and Davis get lucky with the weather in 2013 as Goesslin and Aronimink did and Dahlmeyer and Davis did at Pebble, Merion East will hold its own just fine with the best in the world.

Of course if it rains too much and the course gets receptive those guys will kill it because they can kill anything that is receptive. The reason why is obvious---eg players like that are truly remarkable when it comes to the art of distance control when flighting the ball through the air to a particular spot----but that's only if the ball stops where they flight it to. If they really don't know that well enough or they can't really control what the ball does after it hits the ground that is the realm when they are seriously challenged to choose and use all kinds of interesting and diverse strategies that are generally anything but obvious.

[DMoriarty]

David,
I suggest you watch the USGA film that chronicles the '82 US Open.  I don't think Merion will have any issues based on viewing that film and film from the '30 US Am.

Tom is correct - there's absolutely no way 11 could play as you suggest.

Dan,  It isn't 1982, and the changes to the game since 1982 have been much more drastic than the changes between 1930 and 1982.    My mistake with the 11th.   I meant the 10th and have changed my post accordingly.  

[D_Malley]

lets get this straight
the main reason that AGC played so difficult last week was:

very firm conditions combined with slower green speeds

the slower speeds allowed them to place many pins in very inaccessable positions
but those pin positions were somewhat playable due to the slower putting speeds.

[Dan Herrmann]

David M,
I do see your point on #10, but I'd leave it as a par 4, grow-in the fescues short and long of the green and let them have at it.  #10 is one fantastic green surface - I think I saw one guy take 5 total from 30 yards out.

PS - I know the game has changed - I was actually talking about crowd control and gallery movement.  My bad for not being clear enough.

D-Malley,
Really great observation!

[Sean Leary]

Do any other US Open rota courses have 10 as a par 3? With split tees, having the first hole be a par 3 would be a bit interesting I would think. Also with 9 being a par 3, that would mean back to back par 3s when you tee off 1. Probably not many of those in the Open rota as well...

[TEPaul]

In my opinion, now that the 10th has utilized a set up in the Walker Cup and probably in the US Open as a driveable par 4 it has made the hole emininently more interesting than it has ever been. If you could have an entire field of really good players try to drive that green I believe it would likely produce a most interesting and fairly wide "scoring spectrum," a barometer that the likes of Bob Crosby and I think makes for both a good hole and very good architecture. Or as others have said; "Temptation is the name of the game."  

[JESII]

The problem with positioning 10 to really entice aggressive play by using a shorter tee is the number of people watching up around the 2nd tee...these guys can reach from the back tee but would be forced to aim a little further right...which is good. The current tee forces a really well played shot, while moving up a pad takes off a little heat.

Can't imagine ever going for the green on the first swing of the day though...which is an unfortunate result of the two tee start.

David,

The USGA will not have to do anything to Merion that they wouldn't do at other courses. The issue will be the conditioning the week of the event. If it's as firm as AGC this past weekend the course will look good even if there are SEVERAL 4 and 5 iron tee shots per round. The greens are more interesting and will demand high quality play from the tee AND fairway moreso that AGC.

Just out of curiosity, what makes you think they would, or even could, make the 10th a "mid-to-long iron par 3?

[DMoriarty]

Do any other US Open rota courses have 10 as a par 3? With split tees, having the first hole be a par 3 would be a bit interesting I would think. Also with 9 being a par 3, that would mean back to back par 3s when you tee off 1. Probably not many of those in the Open rota as well...

Sean,   They won't call it a par 3 and it really isn't, but during the recent Walker Cup the tee was up, and players were hitting the green with irons.

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David M,
I do see your point on #10, but I'd leave it as a par 4, grow-in the fescues short and long of the green and let them have at it.  #10 is one fantastic green surface - I think I saw one guy take 5 total from 30 yards out.

I think I saw something like that as well.   No doubt it is a great green but it was supposed to be impossible to reach and hold it with a tee shot, and given how short the hole is for these guys, I wonder if that makes for a rather awkward hole.

Some think it is exciting to move up the tee and present the golfer with the option to go for the green, but that loses its luster for me when the "par 4" is "driveable" with an iron.  It looses its luster even further when going for the green with an iron may not be a reasonable play.   At that point don't we just have a long par 3 with a green so ill suited that the reasonable play is to avoid it all together?   How many people would approve of a hole like that if it weren't at Merion?  

Don't get me wrong.   My indictment is of the USGA and what they have let happen to the game.   I think the 10th is a very good hole.   But I wonder whether the hole makes sense in the context of a US Open setting, with today's equipment in the hands of the best players.   It is not a matter of hard or easy, it is a matter of making some sort of sense as a golf hole, and I am not sure it does in that context.  

Same goes for the 3rd, at whatever crazy distance they tried to play it at.   Sure they can make it harder, but the potential cost is that it may not make much sense as a golf hole.  

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As for the Mike Davis set up changes, they were great at Pebble and it will be interesting to see whether they try anything close to that at Merion.  I hope they do, but judging from the Walker Cup it doesn't seem too likely, does it?   Imagine the gallery problems they would have if they significantly widened the fairways.  

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David,

The USGA will not have to do anything to Merion that they wouldn't do at other courses. The issue will be the conditioning the week of the event. If it's as firm as AGC this past weekend the course will look good even if there are SEVERAL 4 and 5 iron tee shots per round. The greens are more interesting and will demand high quality play from the tee AND fairway moreso that AGC.

Just out of curiosity, what makes you think they would, or even could, make the 10th a "mid-to-long iron par 3?

I don't think they would ever call the 10th a par 3, but from where they had the tees for part of the Walker Cup, players were reaching the green with irons.

As for the preparatory changes, you may be right about them being necessary at any other course, but with the exception of this year's open I feel the same way about most of the USGA's setups as I do about Merion.   With their past approach, I'd just as soon they rotate back and forth between Bethpage Black and Torrey Pines, and leave the rest of the courses alone.   I hope they stick with the setup approach they took this year, but I am curious to see what will happen after they hit a soft year and players really go low.

Plus, Jim, SEVERAL 4 and 5 iron tee shots a round at Merion?   That was never how Merion was meant to be, was it?

[JESII]

David,

I must not have watched the Walker Cup very closely, because I do not remember guys hitting irons onto the 10th green...but I admit, I did not watch it very closely. I can assure you, if that were the case then they used a tee more than one set forward, and did so solely because it was match play and, like #3, the effort was clearly to try and shake things up. Not going to be an issue during a US Open.

As to the intent versus the reality of several 4 or 5 irons...I think they are two different conversations. These guys will hit their 5 iron 225 yards off the 7th tee. I think a 225 yard tee shot was the intent, I don't think Wilson thought it would be a 5 iron. I'll bet a 4 or 5 iron will be used by a big number of guys on #7, #8, #10, #11 with likely long irons on #1, #15 and #16 IF IT"S AS FIRM AS THIS WEEKEND in Philadelphia.

[Sean Leary]

If it is firm and fast, 4-5 irons might be hit on which holes? Maybe 1,7,8,10, 11? Perhaps on 4 if players can't get home anyway? 16? Just thinking...

Oops, Sully it looks like our posts crossed, but we are on the same page..

[DMoriarty]

David,

I must not have watched the Walker Cup very closely, because I do not remember guys hitting irons onto the 10th green...but I admit, I did not watch it very closely. I can assure you, if that were the case then they used a tee more than one set forward, and did so solely because it was match play and, like #3, the effort was clearly to try and shake things up. Not going to be an issue during a US Open.

They were way up.  If it was the box i am thinking of, the shot was probably less than 220 yards.  And still some were playing right of the green.  I hope they don't pull that stunt at the US Open, but TEPaul apparently thinks that is the direction they are heading, and TEPaul knows everything, doesn't he?   I don't know much at all, but I assumed one reason they moved up so far was that moving up a little wouldn't have shaken things up much at all, and you'd have had a par 4 with the green 265 yards away, but where most players played right of the green.

As to the intent versus the reality of several 4 or 5 irons...I think they are two different conversations. These guys will hit their 5 iron 225 yards off the 7th tee. I think a 225 yard tee shot was the intent, I don't think Wilson thought it would be a 5 iron. I'll bet a 4 or 5 iron will be used by a big number of guys on #7, #8, #10, #11 with likely long irons on #1, #15 and #16 IF IT"S AS FIRM AS THIS WEEKEND in Philadelphia.

 I am not sure that the 7th is the best example for you to use.   Whoever came up with that hole, I suspect that much of the strategic intent has long ago been strangled out of it by technology, rough, and trees.     How about we use 16?   It used to be long enough that they provided an alternate three shot route to the green.   Now, absent wet conditions it is an iron off the tee?   That doesn't seem right to me.      

[JESII]

David,

Like I said, if you want to have a technology debate this is probably not the right spot.

As to #16, there are several reasons I can see it being a long iron off the tee, and I can guarantee you more people will play the hole around to the right this year than did in its opening year so the two issues you bring up have nothing to do with one another.

People in the 2013 US Open will hit a 2 or 3 iron off the 16th tee because:
1 - the ground is rock hard and the fairways are mowed at 3/8" as they seem to be these days...which will help the ball roll 30 yards further than they would have when the fairways were 1.5"
2 - they are so much more confident in their play from 175 yards than the best players 80 years ago that they can be more conservative off the tee and still be confident in a par
3 - The view of the green is actually better from back a little bit
4 - AND...the ball goes alot further and this tee is locked in and unable to be lengthened by THE POINT OF THE FAMOUS TRIANGLE...

[Matt_Ward]

Jim:

Given your knowledge of Merion / East -- do you see any real gain in going for the green with a driver or long type club given the narrowness and firmness of the green. I don't see such a shot stopping so quickly even if one can pull it off.

I would think the further down the right side you go -- the better the opportunity for sure birdie that way.

Thoughts ?

[JESII]

Agree - when did your rational thought process return?

It's actually pretty simple for me, or even moreso if I were caddying for a Tour guy...with that type of wedge game, and a green that opens up and accepts wedge shots really well, why not hit a 230 yard shot to the plateau and wedge it in...at a minimum, you'll reduce the stress required to finish the round.

I've seen one guy hit the green from the back tee and he did really well to get it on the front bottom portion...still not a guaranteed 3!

[DMoriarty]

Jim,

I understand your desire to stay away from a technology debate, but the technology issue is at the core of the original question:

"Seems like Aronimink is much more of a modern day U.S. Open course than Merion, no? Other than the fact that David B. Fay wants to prove to the world that the USGA hasn't lost control of the equipment is there any good reason why they would go to Merion when they could have gone right down the road to Aronimink?

Don't get me wrong, Merion has lots of history, etc. but there comes a time when you just aren't a viable US Open site anymore. Doesn't mean you aren't a great course or club anymore but times change..."

One can't have that conversation without getting into the technology.  

When I see the USGA monkeying with things like they did on the 3rd and 10th, and when I read of plans to soften green slopes, and when I think of the field hitting irons off the 16th tee even though it is already against the wall, I wonder 1) if a great course like Merion still belongs in that situation, and 2) the lengths to which the USGA will go to make it seem like Merion still belongs.  Even the thought of them being so comfortable with a 175 yard shot!   Shots from 175 yards aren't supposed to be comfortable at Merion!  They are supposed to strike fear into the golfer and cause him to press a bit on the previous shot so he can get just a bit closer.  

Hopefully the USGA will widen the fairways to a reasonable width at cut the roughs at a reasonable length and make the green speeds reasonable and avoid trying to "shake things up" and change their minds about softening contours (if it is not too late.)  But given their track record, that seems a lot to hope for.
  

[DMoriarty]

One more question Jim,  how short would the 10th have to play before you would consider it prudent for these guys to go for the green instead of playing right?

[JESII]

David,

The conversation evolved from that initial post to when I jumped in...I could answer the initial thread question pretty easily...NO, Aronimink is a very very good golf course that does not have the interest or strategic elements Merion does. If we were to take Merion out of the picture there are 20 other courses to put in before Aronimink. It has more interest and strategy that 99.9% of golf courses out there and I have been pretty open my admiration for the course in the last week, but the question is that of fantasy conversations.

Could it host a US Open and stand up in terms of interest and challenge? Yes.

Is it longer than Merion? Yes.

Should there be a conversation about it replacing Merion? NO.


As to your 175 yard comments...there are probably 12 greens out there that these guys would not be comfortable at 175, but 16 isn't one of them...

[JESII]

One more question Jim,  how short would the 10th have to play before you would consider it prudent for these guys to go for the green instead of playing right?

240 - 250 maybe...if I could hit a good hard, high rescue type club I would be confident the worst shot would be right next to the greeen and the best would be able to stop on it. However, once you're at that length on this hole you're at the bottom of the hill hitting blindly up into the heavens...

[Joe Bausch]

One more question Jim,  how short would the 10th have to play before you would consider it prudent for these guys to go for the green instead of playing right?

240 - 250 maybe...if I could hit a good hard, high rescue type club I would be confident the worst shot would be right next to the greeen and the best would be able to stop on it. However, once you're at that length on this hole you're at the bottom of the hill hitting blindly up into the heavens...

On Sunday of the Walker Cup the forward tee (~225 yards, I think) was not used.  One farther back was and it played I think 244 to the flag (which was, as looking at the green from the tee, up and left).  That big brute from GBI hit some utility club.

[DMoriarty]

One more question Jim,  how short would the 10th have to play before you would consider it prudent for these guys to go for the green instead of playing right?

240 - 250 maybe...if I could hit a good hard, high rescue type club I would be confident the worst shot would be right next to the greeen and the best would be able to stop on it. However, once you're at that length on this hole you're at the bottom of the hill hitting blindly up into the heavens...

Hitting blindly and up to the heavens?    Watch your mouth Jim, that tee shot was never blind or uphill.   For me it probably wouldn't be prudent  to go for the green until I was within 100 yards, but then I'd likely have to be playing at night (with shots being fired at me) so even that shot'd be blind. 

[JR Potts]

No 10 from the back tees is largely undriveable due to those towering trees straight off the tee.  If it were any course other than Merion, guys would be screaming about that tree on the left side of the back tee saying that it takes away options, etc.

And I would agree with them.

[JESII]

All kidding aside...Merion is one of the very special places in golf which exempts it in my mind from some of these relevancy questions in hosting a US Open. In case you didn't notice, the guys were hitting 3 wood wedge into either 9 or 10 at Pebble Beach, the recently stretched to 500+ yards par 4...

It's going to be a fun experiment that I hope doesn't backfire. The surest way for it to not backfire would be to forget about par for one year and see what the guys can do...and middle of the greens will not show us what they can do. I would encourage the staff to find four evil (but playable at 11 feet) pins for each hole and keep the flags in the middle for each practice round and keep the rough manageable...with that gameplan up front you will not rely on perfect weather to have the course meet your planning goals.

[George Pazin]

In case you didn't notice, the guys were hitting 3 wood wedge into either 9 or 10 at Pebble Beach, the recently stretched to 500+ yards par 4...

Probably not the right thread for this, but here goes anyway:

I think the biggest problem with the ball/driver tech these days is not the regularity with which guys hit it 310, but rather the occasional - meaning maybe 15-25% of the time - that the combo just results in a crazy outcome. When the longest guys really pure one, the distances are just flat out insane. Drives approaching 400 yards, 3 woods going insane distances.

For the record, it doesn't bother me at all, I couldn't care less. But that, more than the montonous 300 yarders, is what causes courses to be stretched.

I know what I'd do, and I know it will never be done, so it's not even worth going into.

[JR Potts]