Aronimink or Merion?

[DMoriarty]

Ryan,

It was done in the pre-PROV1 era so the balls could curve...even a little to the left if needed...seriously, I saw a guy much shorter than Love hit it on the green with a 3 wood so I don't know what to tell you but I believe he would have been capable. Actually doing it on his one try, I'm not guaranteeing that...

According to one story the long ball was a second just-for-fun ball.  So may be he really tried to rip it.  Must have called it a provisional.

I would suggest their silence on the length issue was a concession...take it as such.

I thought so, but it looks as if TEPaul is chirping about the issue again.

Anyway, all this talk about Davis Love III is a bit off point.   The length of the hole, though, is interesting because it is very short, yet to create a viable choice it sounds like they would have to push it into par 3 range distance-wise (I think you said something like 245.)  To get it to play as it originally intended they'd have to knock down a house or two and move the tee way back.    That is a dilemma that isn't easily resolved in terms of setup.

[JESII]

David,

I'm not worried about "original intent" so lets leave the houses alone for know...

Regarding the 245, that's what I would need to be to feel comfortable trying to get on the green...I also said I think you'll see a good number of guys go for the green in the US Open and there are several reasons for that...most notably is their far superior short games allow tham to take a chance off the tee and still know they'll likely make 4 at worst...next is their far suprior long games allow them to be very confident the ball will go fairly close to where they aim with a three wood.

[Dan Boerger]

I think it will be a terrific hole for the Open. It will likely play as a par 3.5, so the contenders will have birdies in their gunsights. The green is not overly receptive, so a "burning" wedge from a good lie would be the preferred play of choice for most. I guess some could try and bomb it to a green-side bunker, but missing that and leaving it in the cabbage could take birdie out of play, particularly if the pin is back.

If you're discussing yardage it's important, IMO, to note this is a downhill tee shot, so it will play slightly shorter.

[TEPaul]

Ryan:

You asked if Davis Love's magic 1 iron onto the 10th green has landed yet?  

First of all, that story just shows how things on here get entirely screwed up and it takes no time at all for that to happen, particularly with a guy on here like Moriarty who can misquote and totally distort or just fabricate things people mean and say on here in a heart-beat. In the last 24 hours he wrote a post that looked like I said something you said. He made it look that way because I quoted you in one of my posts but his quote of me looked like I said it. The next thing the guy will do is claim I was wrong about something I never even said in the first place and after that he will very likely refuse to admit that as is his long-running MO on here.

Thinking back about the round of Davis Love's back in the 1980 and what he may've done on #10, I just can't imagine that that story could've come from anyone else on here other than me. After-all who ever heard of it on here other than from me? Who else on here would've known about what he did on #10?

But to set the record straight on that for starters the only person I have EVER heard say Love drove that green with a 1 iron was D. Malley yesterday on a post on this thread. I never heard that before yesterday.

The story I heard back then at some point was that Love who was a junior at UNC at the time and had never seen Merion before and apparently had never even been to Philadelphia before had a great round going and on #10 (he ended up shooting a 64 and that card still hangs in the clubhouse) he put an iron in the fairway and then just to see what would happen they asked him to tee up his driver and the ball not only flew the green but Ardmore Ave too (back in those days Love was so ridiculously long with everything including that amazing berylium 1 iron he had then that he rarely needed to use a driver on courses like Merion or Pine Valley. I don't believe he ever hit a wood in the Walker Cup and I sure know he didn't in his one singles victory because I followed him every step of the way).

I do not know, however, if that story about him teeing up a driver with a second tee shot on #10 is true or not. Who knows, maybe I even concocted that story all by myself. That might make some sense, at least on this website since for years on here according to MacWood and Moriarty I'm the one who alters original Merion documents who lies and withholds important evidence or distorts facts to iconize Philly homers like Wilson and minimize outsiders like Macdonald and Whigam!

But I sure do know where to find out and who to ask. Matter of fact, I was over there today, and just as I was leaving we saw Capers playing the 18th hole. I asked him if he heard about that and he either said he hadn't or he didn't know the facts. I told him Poncho, long time caddie at Merion, would know since he was carrying Love's bag that day. John said Poncho was right ahead of him so apparently I missed Poncho today by minutes. I know all the guys who were in that group that day including Love, so that makes five people I know who could tell us exactly what happened with Love on #10 back in the 1980s.

So there was no magic 1 iron onto the 10th green, I don't believe, and whether or not that second shot with a driver that flew the green and Ardmore Ave is apocryphal or not I'll just have to ask one of those people.

As for the length of that hole to any spot or what the scorecard ever said at any time that is also more than determinable in a number of ways.

I'll get into that next.  

[TEPaul]

"Tom,
Agreed - that's what was curious in you challenging Ryan Potts 309 number...do you think it's measurable different from that when played down the fairway then into the green?

I'll bet 280 is within a couple percent of what you get using a rangefinder."


Sully:

Again, I never challenged Ryan Potts 309 number or any other number. Of course I think it is measurably different if calculated down the center of the fairway and then into the green. It is very likely 20-25 yards different and greater than the distance straight from the tee to the middle of the green even if one's strategy is to hit it right through a tree on the left not far off the tee.  

And that is why it says on the scorecard the distance is 310 from probably the center of the back to the center of the green in two shots---one of app. 250 into the middle of the fairway and the next of app 60 to the center of the green----while, on the other hand, a single shot from the tee directly to the middle of the green is probably 285-290 even if one is required to strategically negotiate a number of branches on an inconveniently placed tree!

I realize this kind of thing might be considered higher mathematics by some but nevertheless it is understandable eventually.

One can even deduce or arrive at all the numbers from any single number by using what has become known as Moriarty's Theorem.

You subtend the hypotenuse, but only after patting the other two sides of the right triangle on the butt as you eyeball them fondly. Then you divide the sum of those three by the number on Hugh I. Wilson's stateroom on the Titanic. And then you multiple the quotient by the length of C.B. Macdonald's dick but not the length in inches, mind you, but the length in feet!

It's all quite logical actually once you get used to it and should be accurate to well within the yard, give or take a few inches either way.

[JR Potts]

Now that is funny.

[Mike Cirba]

Ahhh...

That explains where I went wrong trying to measure the "triangle" along Golf House Road!

[TEPaul]

"Now that is funny."

Watch your step Boy! Maybe you think it's funny but that's just YOUR opinion! It certainly should not be construed to pass as an actual "fact" or "PHACT" or even a "PHUCKING PHACT"-----at least not without a whole lot more EVIDENCE that must be produced to create a total consensus. I'm quite sure Moriarty thinks its childish, irrelevant, ignorant, snarky and totally mocking of Charles Blair Macdonald and all the rest who come from outside of Philadelphia-----and the very opposite of funny!

[D_Malley]

TEP
I was on the course that day (DL3 - 1 iron) as a caddy a group, or two behind. as i was everyday back in those years.   i saw many of the places where DL3 was hitting his drives.  I could not see his drive on #10 being in the group behind so i cannot be 100% sure, but i have it from first hand knowledge as to his play on #10.  

You can ask whomever you want about it, but i was there that day.

[TEPaul]

D. Malley:

Thanks so much for that information. It never ceases to amaze me what happens on this website and the fascinating info that comes out even from long ago from people on here who most of us only know by a name on a post.

I will see what I can find out about Love on the 10th back then from the guys who were in his group.

Frankly it would not surprise me if he did hit that green with his 1 iron. He had the kind of length I do not think anyone had ever seen before him. That was a few years before John Daley came up!

I know and understand his 1 iron action and capabilities because I got to see it up close and personal not long after that round of his at Merion at the Walker Cup at Pine Valley. He only played in one singles match and I walked right along with him the whole way, and I even watched him during a practice round.

His father was walking alongside him the whole time and the story was he told Davis to never use a wood on that course---I never even thought to look if he was even carrying woods.

But I remember so clearly still today the reaction from the spectators that day of his one singles match. He was playing some older GB&I opponent whose name I can't recall now.

Right out of the box people who noticed it were sort of surprised he hit an iron from the tips on #1. Back then I'm sure not many did something like that. And not to mention that he blew it by his opponent's driver considerably. And then he just continued to hit that 1 iron from the tips blowing it by his opponents driver. On #2 he hit 1 iron, 9 iron close. On #3 he hit 7 iron close to a back left pin about 195-200. On #4 he actually missed the 1 iron sort of high and right. And then on #5 people were really speechless when he hit an iron from near the tips over the green. Effectively with the uphill and all that was like a 255 yard 4 iron! I thought he hit a 3 iron for about ten years but I finally ran into his caddie that day who confirmed it was a 4 iron.

I walked up near the tee on #6 with a board member of the USGA who was sort of mumbling to himself that this young man was some kind of freak but then said even he couldn't hit that 1 iron across the right corner on that hole. I remember that 1 iron so well. It took off low for about 150 yards and then climbed into the air like a Lear jet taking off and carried that right side by a mile.

And so it went that day. I have called that day on here-----the window into the future.

I believe the USGA may've even asked him if he would consider coming to the Tech Center to get tested as they suspected there might be some distance extrapolation or exponential factor at work at whatever his swing speed was. Love was actually semi-injured during that Walker Cup---one wrist was all taped up and if they asked him to go to Far Hills I think he politely declined perhaps because of his wrist because I know he withdrew from the US Amateur a week or two hence because of that.

So if he actually did hit #10 at Merion with his 1 iron, given all the foregoing, it wouldn't surprise me.

[D_Malley]

TEP
no need to check with the guys in the group, i just confirmed it with one of them, who i happened to bump into today

but feel free to run any other merion stories by me for approval before you post 

[TEPaul]

"TEP
no need to check with the guys in the group, i just confirmed it with one of them, who i happened to bump into today.


D. Malley:

Thank you so much for that; good job indeed. It sounds like you must have run into Poncho (or the other caddie in that group) or Gui because Chet Walsh probably isn't there much being a member of PCC and Peter Persons was from Georgia. And I'm pretty sure you didn't bump into Davis Love today at Merion. I don't believe he has been back again since that day.

I suppose the fact that he actually drove the green with his 1 iron must mean that he never did hit another shot with his driver that seems to have been part of that story for so long. Why would he do that after driving the green with his 1 iron unless they wanted to see if he could actually hit a driver over Ardmore Ave?

Actually, I thought a few years ago about trying to put that four ball group back together again for another round about twenty five years later. I don't know what happened to Peter Persons but if we could get Davis Love back again Gui and Chet are certainly around. For the fourth I was thinking of asking Ben Crenshaw since he and Davis are great friends and he and Davis also share that rare 64 score on Merion East along with old time member Jacques Houdry. I think I'm correct in saying the competitive record is a 63 by Jim Simons, an amateur in the 1971 Open. I also believe it is correct to say that Simon was the last amateur to finish in the top ten in a US Open (1971).

[D_Malley]

actually, the report i got was not from poncho, and i am not totally sure that he was DL3's caddy that day.  but i did hear that DL3 only had one wood (driver) in his bag that day, and it was only hit once. for some reason i did not ask where he hit that one shot, but that is my next question.  i will keep you informed.

[TEPaul]

D. Malley:

I thought Poncho said he carried his bag but maybe not. The best to ask is probably Chet Walsh who has a memory like an IBM machine.

[PAW13]

TP

Funny how thing all happen at once.  I was actually working yesterday (I know most people think I don't) and received a phone call from Sully asking me about Davis Love and his 1-ron.  After I give him my answer I get out of my car and go see D. Malley and after some shop talk I am again asked about that day with Davis Love.  Funny how I have not been asked about it in maybe 10 years then I get it twice in 10 minutes.  So with all that going on I thought I would check out GCA since I haven't been on in awhile.

Yes Davis did drive the 10th green with a one iron (Ping Eye 2) and no he did not hit another driver on 10 and did only hit it once.  Actually he only had one wood in his a bag a new Ping Persimmon Driver.  I apologize but I am not 100% sure what hole he hit it on but I believe it was #6 and he missed the fairway by a lot, thus it was put away the rest of the day.

The shot that stands out the most is the bomb he made from the front of the 17th green to a back right pin and he started dancing around the green.  Also Peter Person decided on the first tee that he and Davis should take on Gui and me (real fair match!!)

By the way the scorecard that hangs at Merion and is pictured in their history book has no reference to me playing that day.  The card was recreated after the fact.
 

[TEPaul]

Chet:

Just a minute ago before seeing this I read Dan Malley's email that said you stopped by Paxon Hollow yesterday. It sure is funny how things happen. I was going to call you anyway about this because you know you----you've got that mind and memory like a damn IBM machine!  

By the way, for a few years now I've had it in mind to try to reprise that group again at Merion, particularly since hooking up with Love and Co. on a project in Maryland a few years ago. I hadn't seen Davis in person in over twenty years and either he remembered or someone told him but we did talk about that time he and Peter Persons stayed with us in Philly back then but not about any of his golf back then. I have no idea where Peter Persons is these days but if he's not available are you game for the group of you, Gui, Davis and maybe Ben Crenshaw?  

[TEPaul]

"By the way the scorecard that hangs at Merion and is pictured in their history book has no reference to me playing that day."


Are you serious!!??

That is completely shocking. But guess what----I know the historians at Merion and particularly Pissboy Morrison! If it stops raining we may even hie on over to HVGC today to completely restore that golf course precisely to Flynn in every detail. I will tell him that card needs to be recreated with everyone on it and every hole score or there is no possible way he can ever call himself a Merion historian again! This is perfect for you too, Chester, with your IBM like mind and memory I have no doubt you remember every shot every player hit all day long.

PS:
I am also going to insist that Merion immediately shit-can ever available copy of that history book and get the thing reprinted and get it right. This is as important to correct as Hugh I. Wilson NOT going abroad in 1910, but in 1912,  and why he decided to NOT sail on the Titanic since he was scheduled to do so.

The little fates of life, huh?

By the way, I saw your Dad last weekend at the Shreiner AT&T cookout. He cracks me up----he definitely got into the ice cream again.

[PAW13]

TP

I would be more than happy to recreate the group, just have to get Gui to clear his schedule.  I would think Davis could track Peter down.

I got to know Davis' brother Mark well from the Cheasapeak Cup as well as the Crump, so I am sure he could get us in touch especially once the project in Maryland gains traction again.

Look out for the Sarge when there is ice cream and chocolate chip cookies involved!