[Matt Schulte]

(Forgive me if there is already an existing thread on this subject.)

Am I in the minority in believing that Arcadia Bluffs is underrated living in the shadow of its neighbor across the lake, Whistling Straits?

I thought it was in the same league with the likes of Bay Harbor and Whistling Straits.  Golf Magazine ranked it something like 80th in their most recent “Top 100 You Can Play.”   Do those of you who have played it consider that accurate?  Politics at work?!  I think so!  

I admit I am not as well read as many of you on architecture.  Perhaps I put too much emphasis on how much I enjoy a golf course.  With that said, I also don’t think I believe this to be so good simply because it is visually pleasing.  I think Tom Doak gives those courses the “Dumb Blonde Award.”  In my opinion this is certainly no candidate for that award.

The site is among of the most visually spectacular I’ve been on.  Man made or not, the view of the dunes that make up holes 14 and 15 from the clubhouse is spectacular.  I also thought the bunkering was outstanding.  

Holes 3,8,9,10,14,15,16 and 18 are all excellent.  In my opinion, all that the course lacked when I played are the fierce winds that a site like Bandon enjoys.

[Peter_Herreid]

Matts:  I have played AB once, this September, in rain and a howling wind off Lake Michigan, which unquestionably added to the flavor...

I agree it is hard to separate out the enjoyment factor, as an architectural "newbie", as well, but my exact comment to our host was that I thought AB beat the pants off The Irish course at Whistling Straits and was the equal of the Straits, but that was with the cost difference factored in.

I still got the feel that "earth was moved" while at AB, and I guess I personally would have wanted a little more subtlety on a few holes.  One example:  After the dramatic tee shot on #13 into the bowl, and the launch off the elevated tee on #14, there is the green on #14 calling for a long iron into a green perched way up onto the side of that dune.  Maybe a more gently countoured approach to a less severe green might have "set up" the ski-slope #15 better, but hey that's just my opinion.

They tried to discourage us from walking, and I bet that would be a problem if more people tried it, and it was no easy stroll, but I'll look forward to playing AB again next time in Michigan.

I don't think politics in ranking is as much of an issue, and perhaps whether it's been seen/played by the rankers, given its location (a la the Kingsley Club).

[Matt_Ward]

matts:

I had the pleasure in playing both Arcadia Bluffs and The Kingsley Club in 2001 and enjoyed both immensly. They are clearly different courses and each is strong in its own way.

Arcadia finished 2nd in GD's Best Upscale Catgeory and I believe it does merit that -- although I thought Wolf Creek at Paradise Canyon (NV) was just a hairline better.

Arcadia is well done and the course takes you through a joyous ebb and flow of emotions throughout the 18 holes. I credit the design team (I believe Smith & Henderson) for eliminating the land that is less spectacular (the first three holes are basic) and getting the golfer to the meat of the site.

You are absolutely right the 14th and 15th are just stunning holes -- they really get the blood moving in the veins!

Peter, I hear what you're saying about the the involvement of man's hand but I think it was done well without being extreme. I also liked the green contours because indifferent iron play will not suffice at Arcadia.

Personally, I liked the Straits course a bit more because of the difficulty meter but clearly you could easily have a19th hole discussion between the two courses.

I've already made my feelings known about The Kingsley Club -- it's a wonderful job by Mike DeVries and a must play for those who get to the area.

One last item -- there's wind at Arcadia -- don't let anyone say different. Whether it's more or less than Bandon depends on the day you played.

[Craig Van Egmond]

Arcadia Bluffs may not be great architecture but it is great fun, I really enjoyed the course and prefer it over Bay Harbor. A must play if you are in the area.

And yes the wind does howl, especially on the par 3 over the canyon near the lake.

[Ran Morrissett]

Craig, what in particular makes Arcadia Bluffs so much fun?

Does anyone have some pictures that they could post from Arcadia Bluffs? And even better, add in some narrative?

Same for Bay Harbor too perhaps?

In re-reading my brother's profile of The Kingsley Club, it is hard to believe that either could be as appealing as TKC but it's always nice to be pleasantly surprised!

Cheers,

[SPDB]

Ran - I can't comment since I haven't played. But here are some pics i pulled off the website. Hopefully it will spur discussion by those who have seen it.

Hole 5 - par 5 approach to the green:

[SPDB]

11th:

[SPDB]

15th - Par 5

[SPDB]

Bunkerless 18th greensite.

Although these are only pics, I have to admit to being very impressed with what i see.

[Ran Morrissett]

Wow - I've seen less inspiring places, that's for sure!  

I wonder how it plays  

I like the left hand bunker and its steep wall in the 1st pic.

The 2nd pic reminds me of St. Enodoc for some reason.

The 3rd pic is the least attractive of the bunch, though it's good to see the green open in front for a low runner under the breeze off the lake.

The 4th pic has a Mike Miller sky if ever there was one but the far right hand "dune" does look awfully worked upon - certainly some grasses could soften its manufactured appearance?

[Tim_Weiman]

Along with Craig Edgmand, I played Acadia a couple years ago during the fine get together arranged by John MacMillan.

Coming off the 18th green, I had one overwhelming feeling: there will be a guy from Kohler, Wisconson quite unhappy if he looks at Arcadia.  Of course, I'm speaking of Herb Kohler, owner of the American Club, including Whistling Straits.

It just seemed to me that Arcadia might well appeal to more golfers than Whistling Straits and it was built for a lot less money.

I say that as someone who very much enjoyed previously spending three days playing Whistling Straits and who encountered a few things I didn't like at Arcadia: I didn't like the mixture of bunker styles and I thought the bunker fronting the long par 3 (#9, I believe) was one of the worst placed bunkers I had ever seen.

I can see someone feeling that Arcadia is a little too resorty.  I agree with Ran's suggestion that the place looks "manufactuered".   But, for some reason, I was inclined to accept what I wasn't thrilled about and have a good time playing the course.

Don't go to Arcadia thinking you'll find an architectural wonder.  It's not that.  But, fun?  Yes, indeed.

[Paul Richards]

Looking forward to visiting here in May.  The pictures look
great.

[John_McMillan]

Re Arcadia vs Whistling Straits -

I think Arcadia's biggest plus in the matchup is a greens fee half of Whistling Straits.  I haven't played Whistling Straits, but get the feeling that it would be slightly ahead of Arcadia on my scorecard ... but not for twice the greens fee.

Others have touched on the course's strengths ... On my scorecard, Arcadia's biggest drawbacks are:
  Bunkering style that sometimes gets downright silly
  Greens that are in some cases over the top (the par-3 on the back 9 - I think the 12'th - is especially severe.  It can get frustrating playing behind a group where one player chips on the green, then putts off and the group waits for the chip back to the green.  The pro shop at Arcadia warns that golf at their course takes 5.5 hours - and I think the severe greens are a big reason why)
  Routing that gets scattered after the first 7 or so holes - the first 7 are walkable and compact, the rest of the holes have gaps which require carts for some significant trips from green to tee).
  
Re the wind vs Bandon Dunes -

I'd be curious when Arcadia was played for the comparison.  I've spent summers near Arcadia Bluffs, and sailed quite a bit on Lake Michigan for 30 years - and the wind certainly can be a challenge for courses near here.  Read Tom Doak's comments on Crystal Downs in the confidential guide - and Crystal Downs is about 20 miles north of Arcadia Bluffs.

[Tim_Weiman]

John:

Re: pace of play at Arcadia vs WS, in my experience it is a wash.  At both venues, you are likely to face a six hour round.

[LSW]

LSW= long slow walk ,or ride Sounds like once is enought

[RJ_Daley]

IMHO regarding the first two pictures, the photographer missed it completely.  The third pic is OK for an overview of the green site.  But not what you see from fairway level.  No complaints on forth pic.  It does the place justice.  

The 5th green is like a double plateau with a dramatic biaritz swale dividing the two plateaus.  The swale has to be atleast 6ft deep and the green must be 10K+.  The approach over native grasses is required for the heroic 2nd or from lay up third.  The green is bunkers like a pool table in the corners.  

AB vs WS favors AB in my book even if they both cost the same.  Walkability is slight edge to WS.  But likely they will both be 5-6hour rounds in a cart or not.  I differ from John in that I did not find the bunkering gets silly.  It gets dramatic, but the bigness and boldness of the design carries the day and allows the bunkers to be bold, I think.  AB greens are pure fun.

[John Foley]

Dick nailed it, the greens at Arcadia are some of the best I've seen on a new course lately. Some very bold slopes and contours. The Par 5 (#5 i think) w/ a Biaritz green is great. In the middle of the fairway 235 in no wind I chose to lay up because I had no idea how a low hot ball would play off that green. The course does looks manuafctured, yet it doesn't feel that it detracts from the experience.

The two holes that are great that people don't reference are 16 & 17. Loved both of them, especially #17.

I think the par 3's at Arcadia are their highlight and some of the best around.

[John_McMillan]

Dick,

The second hole sticks in my mind as one of the more poorly bunkered holes.  It is a par-3 of about 180 yards, with about 40 bunkers up the right side of the hole from tee to green.  Do you think it would have been less of a hole if there were only 39?  30?  15?  To me, that's the definition of silly bunkering.

[Nick_Christopher]

I think we talked about this about a year ago, but as I see it, Arcadia is a fun course to play about once a year.  Anymore than that, and the 5.5 hour rounds suck the fun out of the golf.  The GPS, lack of walkability and overall CCFAD amenities all exacerbate this problem.  When I play Arcadia, I don't get the sense of ebb and flow.  Instead, the course tries to beat you over the head with the spectacular views, and tries to "Wow!" you on every hole.  To my eye, the dunes look very artificial.  If Michigan sand dunes are examined, you can see that they aren't grassed-over and Irish-looking in character.  Rather, they are eroded, sand-exposed, and sparsely vegetated.  The ground cover is a mix of dune gras, lichen and moss.  A look more closely approximating the dunes found around Pt. Betsie or anywhere in the Sleeping Bear Lakeshore would have been more natural and pleasing to the eye.  

Having said all that, the course has some interesting strategy and is fun to play because it forces you to hit some thrilling shots, such as the par 3 ninth, or the gamble on number 5.  The wind can be brutal, which adds to the fun of the place.

[RJ_Daley]

John, I was considering your comment on what number of bunkers becomes silly bunkering, at the same time I was thinking about what Nick said next about the character of true sand dunes characteristics of that region.  I owe my impressions of what the true sand dunes look like due to our little walk out on the dunes behind Crystal Downs.  That was a very informative excursion and I thank you for showing me that area.  But, your excessive number of bunker coments caused me to go back to the picture I have from #2 tee and what I can determine is that there are essentially four bunkers there. Two are well to the right side of the hole corridor, and one is well behind the green.  The primary one is a sprawling scab of a bunker that runs continuously from in front of the teeing grounds, to the front of the green.  I grant you there are about 40 capes and bays.  But, the scap is apparently interspersed something like what Nick describes with patchy areas of ground clinging grasses and scrub bush that somewhat suggests the more typical dune areas that I saw when visiting your area.  Granted, it is not totally authentic, but that would understandably not be possible to recreate on such a manufactured site.  

My comments above relate just to that #2 hole situation which I think is a fun par 3.  I take into consideration of Tim w's comments as to the fescue grassed over aspect of the many dunelike shapes that are strewn around and separating holes.  He said it reminded him something like Ballybunion new.  Since I haven't seen that, I take him to know what he is talking about since he practically lives there when in Ireland.

I just think that when it comes to excessive bunkering, and mixed styles of scabs and grass walled-sod walled pits emulations, this is one course that pulls it off.  I think that Whistling Straits has even more superfluous bunkering and Irish course even more than that.  I think a fellow can take the ferry over from near where WS is located, and go play AB and return on the ferry for about a wash in price if not still less than one round at WS.  

[Rick Shefchik]

Though I haven't had the pleasure to play it yet, Arcadia Bluffs is now high on my list, based on the pictures. Put me down for "Great Looking," at least -- I've already installed the last picture as my computer wallpaper.

[Matt_Ward]

Rick S:

You will certainly enjoy yourself when you eventually get to Arcadia Bluffs.

Too much of the criticism about Arcadia is about illuminating small arcane points. Make no mistake about it -- Arcadia Bluffs is really fun to play. When the wind is up (which is often) the challenge intensifies. I enjoyed nearly all of the putting surfaces and, yes, a bit of the course is manufactured by man's hand -- but so what!

When you stand on the tee of the par-3 9th and with Lake Michigan framing the background you feel a real surge of WOW.

The early holes were smartly placed by the architect tandem of Smith and Henderson to build up the excitement you feel as each succeeding hole brings you closer to the Lake. I really liked the par-5 5th because the risk / reward elements are clearly there.

Nick C:

I have to second your comments on speed of play, however, that condition infects a number of courses beyond Arcadia Bluffs. I played Whistling Straits as well on my visit to the general area and it was nothing less than a C-R-A-W-L.

You have people playing golf who can't place a tee in the ground! Many are there because of the hype and the closest many should come to a golf course is chip'n putt. Given the demands of the course no matter what tee you play from the pace sucks away your enthusiasm as you watch groups tirelessly search for that $12.95 sleeve they just bought in the pro shop.

I try to play either very early or very late in the daye to avoid this gridlock state.

But, if you should catch Arcadia when it's not jammed you will really have a wonderful time with a solid array of holes. The stretch of holes after #12 is one thriller after another -- I especially liked the blind tee shot on the long par-4 14th and unique green, the daring par-5 15th, the lake side par-4 16th and the challenging closers at the par-3 17th and uphill long par-4 18th with its stylish putting surface. Boring is not a word that will be uttered when playing AB. In my mind I give the course no less than a 7.5 on the Doak scale.

Is AB better than the Straits Course? Tough, tough call, but I'd give the nod to Pete Dye's creation because the potentiality for blow-up holes on your scorecard is ever present in my opinion. In addition, the demands on your tee game are more thoroughly tested at the Straits.  

[SPDB]

What I don't understand is that some here have criticisms of AB that turn on it being "manufactured" course.

How come I don't hear the same indictment of WS?

[Rich]

The pace of play in 2001 averaged just under4:30. The GPS is used to assist with the pace of play. Walking however is encouraged and is assisted by marked sprinkler heads and yardage books. With respect to the "dunes" issue or whether AB was a manufactured site, Arcadia Bluffs is not a dunes site desgnated by the State as are Pt Betsie and Sleeping Bear Dunes. In fact much of the site was a native fescue meadow with clay or sandy loam soil. What you see is not artifical. The only soil moved was to create green sites and to level off fairway  landing areas. The hills and deep valleys were natural runs to the lake that have been there for thousands of years. Dune grass was not indeginous to this site and was therefore not utilized after development. All of the plantings on the site are consistent with those found prior to development and were carefully chosen by plant specialists who had extensively surveyed the site prior to construction. If the site was a "dune site" or had  been artificially "manufactured" I would agree with some of the prior comments. If some still believe that the site was "manufactured, They should observe the property immediately adjacent to AB to see the consistent terrain.

[Tim_Weiman]

SPDB:

You ask a fair question about why WS isn't criticized for being manufactured when AB is.

I can't give you a real good answer.  Long ago I just accepted that Pete Dye DOES manufacture golf courses.  That is just his style, so I don't expect anything different.

Two other points:

Dick Daley and I just agree to disagree about the contrasting bunker styles at AB, but part of my criticism is that this factor does contribute to a sense that AB is "manufactured".  By contrast, Pete Dye created a very large number of bunkers at WS, but they seem to fit together more consistently and, ironically present less of a "manufactured" look.

The other point concerns all walking vs carts and cart paths.  The presence of the later also contributes to a "manufactured" look at AB.

Like Dick Daley and Matt Ward, I'm inclined to forgive AB for its flaws and just play it for fun.  If that story about 4.5 hour rounds is actually true, I just might make the journey from Cleveland again sometime.

Matt Ward:

Several years ago I played a memorable round of golf in Kohler, this time at the River Course.  After checking in by myself I was directed down to the first tee to join two other players.  Striking up conversation, I quickly learned - to my horror - that they had played golf twice in their life, but heard Blackwolf Run was a good course and wanted to check it out.

Just when I was about to fall into complete despair, the starter said "hold on, one more person will be joinging you".

It turned out to be a very attractive gal who was also a pretty good golfer.

Fortunately, I don't remember too much about those idiots who had absolutely no business being on the course!

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