[Ivan Lipko]

Sorry, if this topic has already been discussed.

I have had pleasure to play both courses (which have very similar looks) and I definitely think that the PB is a better course. The TR seems to be way unnatural (some of the holes) and very often you feel like there is too much stuff going on. Finally the greens are somewhat crazy and not reasonable at all if you know what I mean.

My question is 1st - how do you see these two courses and which do you think is a better one? and
 2nd Do you think they deserve to be in the World's TOP 100 courses?

Thanks a lot, look forward to hearing the opinions of more knowledgeable people. And once again sorry if this has been discussed - I sometimes fail on search function.

[Mac Plumart]

Ivan...

for my taste Pine Barrens was a much better course.  I agree with all your thoughts on Tobacco Road.  It wasn't for me, plain and simple.

As far as should they be in the Top 100, I don't think Tobacco Road should be Top 100 and Pine Barrens might get some consideration, but I still think it just might fall a bit short.  But if you throw in the cost factor, Pine Barrens might be well in the Top 100 value list.  Very inexpensive and some pretty high quality golf.

I'd be interested to hear more about your thoughts on Pine Barrens...favorite holes, strengths, weaknesess, etc.

 

[Ivan Lipko]

Of course, Mac...

I loved Pine Barrens very much. It is hard for me to find any weaknesses. I believe the overall condition might be the only real one - there are some bare spots here and there and the greens were not running as fast and true as I'd love them to. Actually, I think if the green fees were way higher and hence the condition was MUCH better (just like at the top private courses) the Pine Barrens would definitely be in the TOP 100.

I feel like PB is a great set of 18 good to very good to outworldly  good holes. There are a couple holes which I see not being quite as good as some others. A short par 3 No.3 seems to be a bit indifferent although the green is very interesting. A par 5, No. 14 belongs to the Tobacco Road more than to the PB. -)

Other than that they are all unbelievably good. Last time I played there was in February so I do not remember it super cleat but I still can imagine every hole on the course. I especially loved two  - No.2 and No.13. Some of the best par 4s I've ever played.

To sum up the strengths:

1. Beautiful holes which just look natural and beautiful.
2. Great strategy on almost every hole.
3. Nice green complexes.
4. Very good routing and diversity of the holes.

[Jay Flemma]

They do look similar, which is especially unusual since Mike Strantz never saw Pine Barrens.  I asked him that in an interview back in 2003.

I like Pine Barrens, but Tobacco Road is a bolder, more outside-the-box course in a number of places.  That being said, yes, they both belong in the top 100.  Moreover, they are reasonably priced and worth the money!

Had Atlantic City today (excellent), have Unionvale tomorrow.

[Richard Hetzel]

Jay,

Played Links Union Vale 2 weeks ago. Interesting course. Pics on here....I absolutely loved TR, it seems you either love it or hate it, nothing in between!

Have yet to play Pine Barrens (or any other golf course in Florida for that matter!)

[John Moore II]

They do look similar, which is especially unusual since Mike Strantz never saw Pine Barrens.  I asked him that in an interview back in 2003.

I like Pine Barrens, but Tobacco Road is a bolder, more outside-the-box course in a number of places.  That being said, yes, they both belong in the top 100.  Moreover, they are reasonably priced and worth the money!

Had Atlantic City today (excellent), have Unionvale tomorrow.

Of the top 100 courses I have played, Tobacco Road is no where close to any of them. Depending on how I feel on a given day, I might not even say Tobacco Road is in the top 10 courses in the Pinehurst area, let alone anywhere close to top in state or nation. I can see why it could be and I really like the course, I like it better and would recommend it to someone over some of the courses I actually think are better overall because its original, but TR is in no way, shape or form a top 100 golf course.

But for what its worth, I think the greens are great, I'd like to play there when the fairways are running very firm and fast and the greens brick hard, rolling 11 or 12. Now that would be a piece of a golf course to play. I do like Tobacco Road, but I have played some other really, really good golf courses and Tobacco road is just not up there.

[Ronald Montesano]

I'm ambivalent about Tobacco Road...it's OK, but it doesn't put me to sleep, nor does it shake me awake...How did Hetzel react?

Having only played the Road, I'll add something I've never said about it before...If you go in with a comparison in mind, you'll come out disappointed and distraught.  Golf isn't meant for comparing, it's meant for striking the ball and popping the pull tab.  I like a TR and always will, for its audacious detour from the mundane.  It rewards good shots and provides alternative avenues, if only the player plugs in the brain before teeing off.

I hope to play Pine Barrens one day.

[Richard Hetzel]

As with any golf course, there were some bland golf holes at TR. 1 comes immediately to mind with it's silly sandhills right and left. That being said, it could be I liked it so much because I was able to escape some harsh Cincinnati December weather to play a few rounds in the Pinehurst area.

I think the course was very original, different and really required you to think your way around the course. I liked it enough that I deemed it worthy of another round when I visit there again. The same cannot be said for Tallamore, which a friend in my group insisted we play!

It also helps the player in that all sand areas are deemed waste bunkers and your club can be grounded ANYWHERE in the sand. Not this has anything to do with the GCA, but the clubhouse is on eof the cooler places to hang out at a golf course.

[Doug Braunsdorf]

Does anyone on here have pictures of Pine Barrens they would share?  It's not too far from my house-about a half hour-but I've only driven past it a few times.  I can't comment on play.  I would like to see it sometime. 

TR, IMO, was/is great.  Very fun to play.  A lot of the bigger, bolder features take about one round to understand.  I can see that it is a very polarizing course.  My only gripe was it was a little on the damp side; i.e. a lot of the big fairway rolls, balls would hang up on them, rather than roll down to the bottom.   Having said that, TR felt very comfortable to me; the small pines and sandy soil reminded me of South Jersey. 

I could see how it would be unsettling on the first play; some features are hidden.  I don't have enough experience in and around Pinehurst to go further.

[George Pazin]

Does anyone on here have pictures of Pine Barrens they would share?  It's not too far from my house-about a half hour-but I've only driven past it a few times.  I can't comment on play.  I would like to see it sometime. 

I think they're referring to the Pine Barrens at World Woods, not the one in south Jersey.

One of the few comparisons where I've actually played both. Neither strikes me as top 100, but I think I prefer WW-PB. TR is just a bit too quirky even for me.

[Link Walsh]

Haven't made it down to World Woods yet, but Tobacco Road is a fun course to play every once in a while.  Yes, #1 looks a little weird from the tee, but the hole does require your attention from tee to green (something you can't always say about par 5s).  The second shot is semi-blind and the green runs severly from front to back.

One of my favorite holes out there is 14- the deadly par 3 with the green about 15 paces wide.  It was either a stroke of genius or luck that the entry road goes right past this hole for all to see.  It would be like driving into TPC Sawgrass and seeing 17 front and center- there's nothing like a little mind games before you even get out of the car. 

[Ronald Montesano]

A hole like 14 is like telling a girl you love her...You look at it, know that you have to flirt with disaster, rejection, whatever, but as your golf ball and your words sail away, toward their target, if your courage was true, you absolutely embrace the moment of dynamic uncertainty.  As you ball lands gently on the green, as she smiles and reaches for you, IT WAS ALL BEYOND FREAKING WORTH IT.  Love that hole, love holes like that, love taking risks in golf and love.

[Ronald Montesano]

Doug, Try Joe Bausch' collection here:  http://darwin.chem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/WWPineBarrens/index.html

[Dan Herrmann]

I've played both and actually preferred Pine Barrens, although both were quite enjoyable. However, I don't think either is anywhere near a top 100 type of course for the exact reasons noted by John Moore.

As I said in another thread, I don't really care about rankings because they're so subjective.  So please take my opinion with a grain of salt

[John Moore II]

Haven't made it down to World Woods yet, but Tobacco Road is a fun course to play every once in a while.  Yes, #1 looks a little weird from the tee, but the hole does require your attention from tee to green (something you can't always say about par 5s).  The second shot is semi-blind and the green runs severly from front to back.

One of my favorite holes out there is 14- the deadly par 3 with the green about 15 paces wide.  It was either a stroke of genius or luck that the entry road goes right past this hole for all to see.  It would be like driving into TPC Sawgrass and seeing 17 front and center- there's nothing like a little mind games before you even get out of the car. 

I didn't see this one until just now. I am not sure what you mean by severely front to back slope. Yeah, it slopes that way, but not really what I would call severely, especially considering the third shot will be played with a short iron most likely.

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