[JLahrman]

Phil, I understand the sentiment.  Perhaps it wouldn't make much of a difference.  That pitch is going to be practically blind, and severely uphill, the marginal player already has his work cut out for himself to make a 4.

Also, my recollection was that the bank didn't have much of a collection area at the bottom, it pretty much sloped right down to the nearby 15th tee.  But looking at the picture, perhaps there is a natural collection area there.

I know the general GCA approach is "See a bank, shave a bank", but in this case I'm not sure it would make a big difference.

[Mike H]

I would have to disagree about the 10th being the most difficult tee shot on the course.  I have played there one time but it was the widest fairway on the course.  While being on the right side of the fairway would help the approach it was still a very easy fairway to hit.  I do agree that 10 and 11 are the weakest holes on the course, very boring and unmemorable holes.

[John Mayhugh]

Hole 16 – par 4.  412/372
The tee shot on the 16th is to a somewhat crowned fairway.  The green is barely visible in the distance.  There are bunkers on both sides of the fairway.  From the whites, a drive of about 260 is needed to get past all of the bunkers.  The most important thing is to find a good level lie off the tee.


An intimidating approach.  The green is perched above the fairway with bunkers on each side. A similar look to the 7th, though this is a much longer shot.  It is possible to run the ball up onto the green.




A look over from the  back tee on the 15th hole.


From behind the green looking back.


This look from the 17th tee shows the depth of the bunker. 



Hole 17 – par 5.  463/452
Back to what looks like the flatter part of the property for this short par 5.  The bunker on the left is about 250 from the tee.  The tree on the right and the fairway cut encourages a tee shot that flirts with the bunker.


If your tee shot was under 270 yards, the second shot is blind, though not as uphill as the photo makes it appear.  The rise here was used to similar effect on the parallel 8th.


This green, too, is perched above the fairway with bunkers guarding each side.  I like the look, but it also is a bit repetitive. 


A look back at the green from the 18th tee.  Note the blue tee marker to the far right of the photo.  I really liked the transition from green to tee.  This was the most obvious example of the ease of walking Moraine, but there are similar transitions elsewhere.



Hole 18 – par 4.  442/431
A dogleg right that must have been pretty scary prior to tree removal.


An uphill approach with a tree protecting the left side of the green and a bunker on the right.  A very tough finishing hole.



I’ll post some additional comments tomorrow. 

[Phil McDade]

John:

Thanks for a wonderful tour of a course I've always wanted to see. Some really interesting stuff there -- I've always had a fondness for those saddle-like fairway landing areas, and Moraine seems to have some really good ones.

[JLahrman]

Thanks John.

Both the 16th green/17th tee and the 17th green/18th tee are connected directly - the fringe of the green is also the tee of the next hole.  Totally cool.

[Doug Braunsdorf]

John,

  Thanks for taking these pictures and sharing your comments.  I saw pictures of Moraine years ago; some of it was old footage of the PGA. 
  This just looks like a fun course, a fun place to play golf.   

  I really like the light way in which the course sits on the land.  It reminds me somewhat of Garden City in that aspect.

  I agree with you in many of the greens look repetitive.  Most have the flanking right and left bunkers. 

A few questions:

Did you find there was a premium angle on being on one side of the fairway over another in most cases? 

I am noticing some of the fairways are canted.  Are the slopes in the fairway severe, that it is possible to roll through/off the fairway?  This occurs at Huntingdon Valley, and for me, it's a fun part of the game, to try and hold the fairway. 

[jonathan_becker]

John,

As always, thanks for the photos.  Moraine is about 2 hours from my house and I need to get down there and play it.  It looks great.

I love the views on the new #15.  It looks as if getting rid of the trees short left of the green provided an option of using the back tee and playing across the hole from a different angle.  The back and white tees seem like 2 different holes and that sounds fun to me.

[JLahrman]

I would have to disagree about the 10th being the most difficult tee shot on the course.  I have played there one time but it was the widest fairway on the course.  While being on the right side of the fairway would help the approach it was still a very easy fairway to hit.  I do agree that 10 and 11 are the weakest holes on the course, very boring and unmemorable holes.

It is a wide fairway, but given the creek that crosses the fairway, you have to somehow find the fairway or you're risking a sideways pitch.  You may not be able to punch a shot towards the green.  As mentioned, 10 and 11 are on the flattest part of the property.  11 is one of the weaker holes on the course but I think 10 is a good hole given that the land is just not as interesting as the rest of the course.

[John Mayhugh]

Jonathan,
I suspect if we had more photos from prior to the tree removal, there was no left tee at all on the 15th.  I think they were only able to add that tee due to tree and brush reduction.


Doug,
Did you find there was a premium angle on being on one side of the fairway over another in most cases?
Tough to answer with only one play of the course, but it seems that to score well position off the tee is important.  The greens have some pretty severe tilt, so move the hole location around and you need to be approaching from the right spot to have a reasonable putt.  It also makes the approaches between flanking bunkers a bit more comfortable. 

Are the slopes in the fairway severe, that it is possible to roll through/off the fairway?
Maybe on a couple of holes, but for the most part I didn't see this as an issue.  You are far more likely to end up with an uneven lie.  Very intimidating having a downhill & sidehill lie to approach one of those elevated greens.


JLahrman,
You can sort of see the tee/green transition between 16 & 17 in my photo from behind the 16th green.


Phil,
Well worth seeing, especially if you can find some other courses in that part of Ohio worth a look.  (yes, that's a joke)


Mike Hunsucker,
I don't know that the tee shot on 10 is the most difficult on the course, but it's probably the one that would bother me the most.  The hole is 437 yards from the white tees, and if I'm in the left side (or even left center) of the fairway then I'll need to draw my 200 yard approach shot to avoid the tree on the left.  Hit the tree, and I'm in the hazard.  Miss the fairway on either side and I will have to carry my second shot 140 or so yards to avoid the hazard - and that assumes I've hit a 240 yard tee shot.  So for me, there seems a good bit of pressure to not only hit the fairway but also the right part of it.  That's also true on a number of holes, but this is one of the few that has a water hazard to consider, so the penalty is greater.


Mike Hendren,
I believe it was Gib who years ago commented that "a golf course doesn't need to be any better than this" when discussing a particular course.  Based on these photographs, I'd say his wisdom applies to Moraine as well.
Agreed.  I would really enjoy playing this type of course every day.  I am not sure that I would have felt the same way prior to all of the tree removal work.

[jonathan_becker]

Jonathan,
I suspect if we had more photos from prior to the tree removal, there was no left tee at all on the 15th.  I think they were only able to add that tee due to tree and brush reduction.

I was assuming the same thing.  I didn't phrase my previous response correctly.  I should've said "now provided the option of creating the back tee."  Thanks for catching that.

[Richard Hetzel]

Recent article about Moraine CC in the Dayton Daily News:

http://www.daytondailynews.com/dayton-sports/golf-course-makeover-takes-time-201659.html?showComments=true

[Mike H]

John Mayhugh
It sounds like its not the tee shot that would cause you the most problems but the length of the hole that would create the most problems for you.  For me it is arguably one of the easiest on the course because it is straight away and if you can shape your shot a little being on the left side of the fairway is not all that hard.  There are much harder tee shots because of angles or long grass.  Because the long grass is a lost ball which means that is stroke and distance.  A stroke and distance penalty is more severe than a water hazard penalty.

[John Mayhugh]

John Mayhugh
It sounds like its not the tee shot that would cause you the most problems but the length of the hole that would create the most problems for you.  For me it is arguably one of the easiest on the course because it is straight away and if you can shape your shot a little being on the left side of the fairway is not all that hard.  There are much harder tee shots because of angles or long grass.  Because the long grass is a lost ball which means that is stroke and distance.  A stroke and distance penalty is more severe than a water hazard penalty.

I understand the difference in penalty strokes.  On the holes with long grass, there is generally a safe side to play (14 & 16 may be the only holes with tall grass on both sides).  It may make the green less accessible by playing safe off the tee, but I think the tall grass (and lost ball) can be avoided fairly easily.  So those tee shots are less concerning to me than one where bad execution brings the hazard into play on the second shot.  It's the impact on my game that I am speaking of.

[Brian Finn]

I played Moraine CC yesterday, and really enjoyed it.  I took a bunch of photos, but found those John posted in this thread better than mine, especially since the sky was grey all day for me.

First off, it is a really fun golf course. Definitely the type of course I could play many times and not get tired of it.  The property has a lot of rolling hills and undulation, in addition to some more significant elevation changes.  The greens had a lot of slope, mostly back to front, but also left & right, which made putting challenging but lots of fun.  There is a nice mix of holes including back to back (but pretty different in character and strategy) short 4s, and two long and tough par 3s.  A number of blind shots, but nothing I would consider unfair. They seemed to fit in well on this course, if that makes any sense.

Overall, I would highly recommend a visit to anyone in the area. Fun course, really friendly people, and a laid back feel.  The property is adjacent to NCR, so you could combine the two easily in a day.

[BHoover]

I love this photo tour. I think the course looks very good after the tree removal a few years ago, but I understand that Keith Foster will be overseeing an implementation of his master plan restoration in 2015. Based on the photos and reviews of his work at Philly Cricket and Orchard Lake, I think the members at Moraine are going to be very pleased with what this course will be post-restoration. I played recently with a member who filled me in on some of the details regarding Foster's plan. He's excited about what the course will be when it reopens in 2016.

[noonan]

Over the last summer it appeared to have a lot of long heather grass in different areas. I most certainly hope they lose that in the redo.

[Zack Molnar]

Thanks for the great photo tour. There was a high school tournament every year here every year that I played in, and it was always one of my favorite stops. It is great to see some of the tree removal they have undertaken on over the past years. 14 looks amazing with the work there, as does 16 (which was always my downfall there for some reason).

I am not a fan of the tee shot at 4. But that might be because the times I have played the course, it was under tournament conditions and it was frustrating to see my ball come up just short of getting to the top of the hill,l and then roll back down to the bottom. If reaching the top was a more tenable option, I could see it as a better hole.

But overall one of my favorite courses in Ohio. Great green complexes, and lots of variety in how to play some of the holes. A strong premium on accurate iron shots into the green, especially with all the elevated surfaces. Cant wait to see what Foster is able to do there over the next year.

[Chris DeToro]

So are they shutting down the course for the entire year?

[BHoover]

So are they shutting down the course for the entire year?

I believe they are closing early summer of 2015 and reopening in late spring of 2016.

[Mark Pearce]

I had the great fortune to play at Moraine today.  I know John mentions several times here that these photos were post tree removal but they look far more tree lined than the course I played today.  Several holes, particularly on the front nine, look far more open, and far better, today.  I tend to think of Mayhugh as rather like Arble, a great judge of a course but, even so, I didn't have great expectations of Moraine.  Turns out I should have had faith.  This is a really, really good course.  The land it's built on is great land.  Plenty of movement but not extreme.  It still takes some skill to build a course both as challenging and as enjoyable as this.  It's also a course that a poor golfer can enjoy but a really good one will still be challenged by.  The greens are the most obvious point of note (and whilst I understand that there are a few quite extreme greens I really hope Keith Foster doesn't do more than soften a few just a little) but it's a good driving course and one that requires good ball striking, too.

One final observation.  In advance of the work to start this year, a lot of the longer grassed areas have been cut right back.  It's obvious that the fairways and, in particular, the greens, have a mix of grasses. The pro and the membership were clearly concerned about how the course looked.  Frankly, I thought it looked great.  Yes, the cut back areas were a bit scruffy.  However, no more scruffy than most UK championship courses are at times.  For me this really demonstrated one of the great differences between golf in the USA and the UK.  We really don't worry at all about how courses look but only about how they play.  Moraine may not have looked as beautiful today as it will after Keith Foster finishes but I would be happy to play that course, as it looked and played today, every day.

[noonan]

JMO - there is too much long grass out there. The 1st year post tree removal it did not seem so choked with the heather. Great green complexes and a joy to play!

[Jon Cavalier]

Wonderful golf course.  I agree, Mark, that today (I played this past Saturday) the course looks even less tree lined.  I have a few photos that I'll add later.  Just an outstanding place to play golf.

[Jeff Bergeron]

Moraine is a fantastic 'could play it everyday' course. A fabulous template for Foster's restoration artistry. It is a must play now. Next year, let the pilgrimages begin.

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