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JNC Lyon

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Re: Best set of greens...a putting paradise or hell.
« Reply #25 on: July 05, 2010, 08:03:29 PM »
I have always liked the greens at Woking - they are some of the most memorable and interesting to play. Very individual with lots of character. On the negative side they are a bit small and some of them lack a few pin positions.

How could I forget Woking?!  Those greens are radical from start to finish, and they make the course a blast.  I love the cascading greens at 2, 3, 12, and 18.  However, some of my favorites are the more subtle, ground-hugging creations at 4 and 17.  Those greens completely define the strategy of those holes back to the tee.

So, if I had to pick a top five, it would be, in no order:

Deal
Merion
Woking
Oak Hill (West)
Prestwick
"That's why Oscar can't see that!" - Philip E. "Timmy" Thomas

Kevin Pallier

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best set of greens...a putting paradise or hell.
« Reply #26 on: July 05, 2010, 08:28:39 PM »
I haven't seen them at their best for some time but Royal Melbourne's are tough to beat when they are good.

For fun factor: I liked OM's / TOC and North Berwick.

Steve Kline

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best set of greens...a putting paradise or hell.
« Reply #27 on: July 05, 2010, 09:26:13 PM »
No one mentioned PV yet? There are some pretty unique greens there. Of course Pinehurst and TOC.

K. Krahenbuhl

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best set of greens...a putting paradise or hell.
« Reply #28 on: July 05, 2010, 09:30:14 PM »
Prairie Dunes
Oakmont
Crystal Downs
Merion

J_ Crisham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best set of greens...a putting paradise or hell.
« Reply #29 on: July 05, 2010, 10:02:26 PM »
Cypress Point, Oakland Hills, Merion, White Bear Yacht Club, Crystal Downs, Prairie Dunes, Chicago Golf, Shoreacres ,and Beverly ;), just to name a few of the one's seen in the last season or two. So many great places in this game!
                                                          Jack

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best set of greens...a putting paradise or hell.
« Reply #30 on: July 06, 2010, 01:58:17 AM »
To me, and I am probably forgetting a course or two:

Oakland Hills
Yeamans Hall
Merion
TOC
Grosse Ile
Beau Desert

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Best set of greens...a putting paradise or hell.
« Reply #31 on: July 06, 2010, 02:15:58 AM »
Now some peoples paradise might be anothers hell but I was thinking about this the other day.

I went along to chat with Archie Baird, much loved golf historian and club collector based in Gullane.  We were talking about courses played and came to the conclusion that funnily the answer may well be right under our nose.  Not at Muirfield, North Berwick, Luffness or Gullane No. 1 but at GULLANE NO.3.

I hadnt played there since high school matches so didnt appreciate them as much as I maybe should of at the time.  Now I can see that good old Archie may well have hit the nail on the head.

So, for you, which course that you have personally played has the best set of 18 greens?

Hi Simon,

I may be mistaken with this but I'm sure Archie told me that it was Tom Doak who alerted him to how good the greens on Gullane 3 were... At the very least, I know that Tom considers them highly also because he's posted on here about it... I still haven't walked or played the 3rd course, only 1 & 2... Would love to see No.3


Ally,

It's ridiculous for Archie Baird to give me credit for anything -- I owe him a lot more for his insight than he owes me.  And it was Archie who dragged me (and Jim Urbina) to play Gullane #3, back in 1997 or 1998, a great day for golf.  (Jim also got to play The Old Course for the first time, the same afternoon.)  I am pretty sure that Archie had already told me that he thought the course had a great set of greens, and I just concurred, instead of it being an original observation on my part ... I read somewhere that it had been extended to my saying that it was THE best set of greens I'd ever seen, which I would never say about any one set of greens. 

Indeed, I haven't posted here about it because my list would be too long, and I would still forget some great ones.  But the important thing is that it's difficult to name a truly great course that DOESN'T have a great set of greens, and it's almost as difficult to name a modern course that DOES, outside of the work of maybe a half-dozen architects.

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best set of greens...a putting paradise or hell.
« Reply #32 on: July 06, 2010, 03:07:34 AM »
Tom, maybe he was not giving you credit for alerting him - that was worded wrongly... He probably used your name more to back up his own beliefs... We were talking about The Renaissance Club in 2008 when he said that you thought the greens on Gullane 3 were one of the best sets you knew. I hope I am not misrepresenting his words again but it is difficult to recall exactly.

Simon Holt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best set of greens...a putting paradise or hell.
« Reply #33 on: July 06, 2010, 07:29:38 AM »
Ally- by the sounds of Tom's words about Archie it is perhaps he who uses Archie's name to back up his ideas!!!  ;D
2011 highlights- Royal Aberdeen, Loch Lomond, Moray Old, NGLA (always a pleasure), Muirfield Village, Saucon Valley, watching the new holes coming along at The Renaissance Club.

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best set of greens...a putting paradise or hell.
« Reply #34 on: July 06, 2010, 10:04:08 AM »
NGLA

with Inverness up there as well.   ;)

Honorable mention...Lookout Mountain

Worst greens on a great/very good course...Shadow Creek...good slopes and undulations, but running around 8ish.  That speed ruined it for me.

So they would've been good at an "appropriate" speed? ??? ::)
« Last Edit: July 06, 2010, 10:06:03 AM by jeffwarne »
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best set of greens...a putting paradise or hell.
« Reply #35 on: July 06, 2010, 10:15:36 AM »
Jeff...I don't know...all I can say is that everyone is my group (one who was a 3 and one who was a 5 handicap) couldn't putt on those things.  Every putt was short, even when you hammered your putts.  The caddies did say the club was embarrassed by the greens.  My best guess would be 11 with those types of slopes would have been really fun.

Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Bradley Anderson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best set of greens...a putting paradise or hell.
« Reply #36 on: July 06, 2010, 03:28:02 PM »
....it's difficult to name a truly great course that DOESN'T have a great set of greens, and it's almost as difficult to name a modern course that DOES, outside of the work of maybe a half-dozen architects.

Tom,

Do you have an explanation of why there are so few great modern greens compared to the great older greens? I have been a big defender of the USGA green on here, but admittedly I can see that there are limitations imposed on creativity when building to spec.

And I would guess that there might even be the concern of liability for agronomic failure that perhaps achitects in the past didn't have to worry about. I mean if you built a push-up green in say 1922, and it was sprigged with Washigton bent that you cut it at a quarter inch, you didn't have the same risks of failure we have at todays management levels. And after many years of topdressing and aeration, the chances of failure would be mitigated further.

Terry Lavin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best set of greens...a putting paradise or hell.
« Reply #37 on: July 06, 2010, 03:34:08 PM »
My top 5 played would be:

Cypress
Prairie Dunes
Sand Hills
Pacific Dunes
Pinehurst #2
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Ben Sims

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Best set of greens...a putting paradise or hell.
« Reply #38 on: July 06, 2010, 09:18:00 PM »
Show me 18 good to great greens with no "stragglers" and I'll show you a great golf course.  Tom said it correctly in regards to great courses without great greens.  In fact that topic might deserve its own thread.

 I was astonished--without even reading the responses before pondering--at how fast my mind screamed, Oakmont, Crystal, Yale, Pasatiempo!  It was as natural as breathing to regurgitate those four without even blinking. 

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best set of greens...a putting paradise or hell.
« Reply #39 on: July 06, 2010, 09:33:10 PM »
Show me 18 good to great greens with no "stragglers" and I'll show you a great golf course.  Tom said it correctly in regards to great courses without great greens.  In fact that topic might deserve its own thread.

 I was astonished--without even reading the responses before pondering--at how fast my mind screamed, Oakmont, Crystal, Yale, Pasatiempo!  It was as natural as breathing to regurgitate those four without even blinking. 

How did you think Ballyneal stacked up against those legends, Corky?

Cliff Hamm

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best set of greens...a putting paradise or hell.
« Reply #40 on: July 06, 2010, 09:43:50 PM »
May I dare mention Baltusrol Upper?

Ben Sims

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Best set of greens...a putting paradise or hell.
« Reply #41 on: July 06, 2010, 10:07:08 PM »
Show me 18 good to great greens with no "stragglers" and I'll show you a great golf course.  Tom said it correctly in regards to great courses without great greens.  In fact that topic might deserve its own thread.

 I was astonished--without even reading the responses before pondering--at how fast my mind screamed, Oakmont, Crystal, Yale, Pasatiempo!  It was as natural as breathing to regurgitate those four without even blinking.  

How did you think Ballyneal stacked up against those legends, Corky?

Bill,

My mind isn't very sharp right now at the end of an 18 hour driving day from Atlanta to Del Rio, TX.  I'll be quick.

Ballyneal's greens are sort of like the first 4 months of the Afghanistan war in 2001.  I can just see Tom and his associates in digitized desert camo, playing in those dunes looking for green sites.  Now imagine this small special forces team of golf architects and shapers, with a laser designator and a radio.  They hop over a Yucca, low crawl around a small rise and then you hear Tom in a whisper, "Schlitz 21, this is Mackenzie niner, kill box delta oscar alpha kilo four two, cleared in hot....."  Nervous silence, a knowing grin from the team leader and BOOM!!  

That's how I imagine greens like the third and seventh and fourteenth--among others--being created at Ballyneal.  I think Tom and his crew found and--possibly--created 18 of the best green sites in the history of golf.  As to whether the greens themselves stack up against those classical horses, I would need more than a few minutes and few beers to chime in further.   Let's just say this, I think they compare VERY favorably.  But the real kicker is this IMHO.  How do Ballyneal's greens stack up against other modern "green complex titans" like Friar's Head, Wolf Point, and Old Mac?

John Kirk

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best set of greens...a putting paradise or hell.
« Reply #42 on: July 06, 2010, 10:11:04 PM »
I'm a modern course guy.  I like the modern contours, which I feel are better suited to today's green speeds.

I've got Ballyneal at the top of the heap.  Home course bias?  Perhaps.

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best set of greens...a putting paradise or hell.
« Reply #43 on: July 06, 2010, 11:03:43 PM »
Show me 18 good to great greens with no "stragglers" and I'll show you a great golf course.  Tom said it correctly in regards to great courses without great greens.  In fact that topic might deserve its own thread.

 I was astonished--without even reading the responses before pondering--at how fast my mind screamed, Oakmont, Crystal, Yale, Pasatiempo!  It was as natural as breathing to regurgitate those four without even blinking.  

How did you think Ballyneal stacked up against those legends, Corky?

Bill,

My mind isn't very sharp right now at the end of an 18 hour driving day from Atlanta to Del Rio, TX.  I'll be quick.

Ballyneal's greens are sort of like the first 4 months of the Afghanistan war in 2001.  I can just see Tom and his associates in digitized desert camo, playing in those dunes looking for green sites.  Now imagine this small special forces team of golf architects and shapers, with a laser designator and a radio.  They hop over a Yucca, low crawl around a small rise and then you hear Tom in a whisper, "Schlitz 21, this is Mackenzie niner, kill box delta oscar alpha kilo four two, cleared in hot....."  Nervous silence, a knowing grin from the team leader and BOOM!!  

That's how I imagine greens like the third and seventh and fourteenth--among others--being created at Ballyneal.  I think Tom and his crew found and--possibly--created 18 of the best green sites in the history of golf.  As to whether the greens themselves stack up against those classical horses, I would need more than a few minutes and few beers to chime in further.   Let's just say this, I think they compare VERY favorably.  But the real kicker is this IMHO.  How do Ballyneal's greens stack up against other modern "green complex titans" like Friar's Head, Wolf Point, and Old Mac?

I haven't played Old Mac yet but think Ballyneal stacks up quite favorably with Friars Head and Wolf Point.  I don't want to rank them, each is amazing and unique in its own way, but all three are brilliant work.  And each is fun to play as the speed was right for the contours.

Ben Sims

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Best set of greens...a putting paradise or hell.
« Reply #44 on: July 06, 2010, 11:10:29 PM »
Show me 18 good to great greens with no "stragglers" and I'll show you a great golf course.  Tom said it correctly in regards to great courses without great greens.  In fact that topic might deserve its own thread.

 I was astonished--without even reading the responses before pondering--at how fast my mind screamed, Oakmont, Crystal, Yale, Pasatiempo!  It was as natural as breathing to regurgitate those four without even blinking.  

How did you think Ballyneal stacked up against those legends, Corky?

Bill,

My mind isn't very sharp right now at the end of an 18 hour driving day from Atlanta to Del Rio, TX.  I'll be quick.

Ballyneal's greens are sort of like the first 4 months of the Afghanistan war in 2001.  I can just see Tom and his associates in digitized desert camo, playing in those dunes looking for green sites.  Now imagine this small special forces team of golf architects and shapers, with a laser designator and a radio.  They hop over a Yucca, low crawl around a small rise and then you hear Tom in a whisper, "Schlitz 21, this is Mackenzie niner, kill box delta oscar alpha kilo four two, cleared in hot....."  Nervous silence, a knowing grin from the team leader and BOOM!!  

That's how I imagine greens like the third and seventh and fourteenth--among others--being created at Ballyneal.  I think Tom and his crew found and--possibly--created 18 of the best green sites in the history of golf.  As to whether the greens themselves stack up against those classical horses, I would need more than a few minutes and few beers to chime in further.   Let's just say this, I think they compare VERY favorably.  But the real kicker is this IMHO.  How do Ballyneal's greens stack up against other modern "green complex titans" like Friar's Head, Wolf Point, and Old Mac?

I haven't played Old Mac yet but think Ballyneal stacks up quite favorably with Friars Head and Wolf Point.  I don't want to rank them, each is amazing and unique in its own way, but all three are brilliant work.  And each is fun to play as the speed was right for the contours.

That's a bingo Bill.  How on earth can you compare Crystal Downs' greens with Ballyneal's?  Or even worse, Old Mac's greens with Yale's?  It's just not conceivable to really compare the two, apples to apples.  They aren't just different breeds, they're different species. 

Not to whip a horse when it's already running good, but the fact that you and I are mentioning Wolf Point in this group--without even batting an eye--should be another indication of how good that course truly is.

Bill Hyde

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best set of greens...a putting paradise or hell.
« Reply #45 on: July 07, 2010, 10:38:23 AM »
I had 38 putts at Franklin Hills yesterday. They are wonderfully menacing.

Davis Cranford

Re: Best set of greens...a putting paradise or hell.
« Reply #46 on: July 07, 2010, 04:34:41 PM »
I might be biased because I work and play there often, but Cassique on Kiawah has 18 amazing greens.  When Nathan Smith gave his post victory speech after winning the 2009 Mid-Am, he mentioned that he had been practicing at Oakmont, and the greens at Cassique made him feel right at home in that regard.  Yeaman's greens are fantastic as well.

Richard Choi

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best set of greens...a putting paradise or hell.
« Reply #47 on: July 07, 2010, 06:30:20 PM »
In my opinion, Ballyneal and Old Macdonald greens are pretty much equal. Those two greens are my favorite greens anywhere. Only difference is scale. Ballyneal greens are more intimate and Old Macdonald takes your breath away with its epic scale.

Paul_Turner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best set of greens...a putting paradise or hell.
« Reply #48 on: July 13, 2010, 06:17:15 AM »
I believe Archie Baird claims that Colt did Gullane #3.... and Colt does list "Gullane" as a redesign.  But I wonder if anything more concrete has been dug up?

Would love to see some photos of Gullane #3!
can't get to heaven with a three chord song

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best set of greens...a putting paradise or hell.
« Reply #49 on: July 13, 2010, 07:58:47 AM »
I believe Archie Baird claims that Colt did Gullane #3.... and Colt does list "Gullane" as a redesign.  But I wonder if anything more concrete has been dug up?

Would love to see some photos of Gullane #3!

Paul, I was always under the impression that Gullane 3 was Willie Park Jnr... As was Gullane 2... But No.2 has had many routing changes over the years whereas 3 has remained much as designed.... I'm sure it was Archie who told me this...

One of our memories are failing... It's very likely mine