[JC Jones]

And not a Mackenzie or even at Mackenzie/Maxwell?

I get that Mackenzie routed the first 8 holes of the front nine and likely the back (though given the property on the back, I'm not exactly sure how anyone would have routed it other than the out and back on the property across the road).  So what?  Looking at pictures of Old Town and Prairie Dunes reminds me much more of Crystal Downs than Pasatiempo or Augusta National.

If we are to give that much credit to Mackenzie simply because he routed it then shouldn't we call Cypress Point a Raynor and not a Mackenzie?

How long was Mackenzie on property?  Did he contribute anything other than the routing?

[Peter Pallotta]

JC - those who know what they're talking about will weigh in soon; but until then let me just say that for me the clearest and easiest to remember 'rule' of golf course architecture is that the one who routes the course should get his name above the title. Period. After that, we cab name any others.The fact that in practice this rule isn't always followed is probably explained by many and varied factors...namely money and ego.

Peter

[JC Jones]

JC - those who know what they're talking about will weigh in soon; but until then let me just say that for me the clearest and easiest to remember 'rule' of golf course architecture is that the one who routes the course should get his name above the title. Period. After that, we cab name any others.The fact that in practice this rule isn't always followed is probably explained by many and varied factors...namely money and ego.

Peter

Mr. Doak made that argument on Wednesday night.  I would generally agree except for what I stated above, Mackenzie didn't route Cypress Point yet he gets the credit.

[Peter Pallotta]

JC - I've forgotten most of the little I know about Cypress, but it strikes me that what I think TE calls the 'designing up' phase of golf course design and construction has been paid a lot (too much) of attention in discussions about Cypress. I don't see any (principled) reason why Raynor's  name shouldn't be above the title there. PS - from pics of Prarie Dunes I know exactly what you mean.

Peter

[Jim Nugent]

Mackenzie didn't route Cypress Point yet he gets the credit.

Can you tell how you are sure that Mac did not route Cypress? 

[DMoriarty]

And not a Mackenzie or even at Mackenzie/Maxwell?

I get that Mackenzie routed the first 8 holes of the front nine and likely the back (though given the property on the back, I'm not exactly sure how anyone would have routed it other than the out and back on the property across the road).  So what?  Looking at pictures of Old Town and Prairie Dunes reminds me much more of Crystal Downs than Pasatiempo or Augusta National.

If we are to give that much credit to Mackenzie simply because he routed it then shouldn't we call Cypress Point a Raynor and not a Mackenzie?

How long was Mackenzie on property?  Did he contribute anything other than the routing?

"So what?"??   I think you drastically underestimate the importance of the routing in the creation of an excellent golf course, and this is especially true at a course like Crystal Downs, where its greatness depends in large part on the excellent use of the property's natural features to create interesting and exciting golf holes.  The routing defines and dictates the strategic and artistic possibilities for the golf course.  

It is easy to look back years later and say it had to be routed this way but I don't think it was all that simple at the time it was done. The back nine at Crystal Downs has some crazy wild stuff ( 17 for example), yet MacKenzie somehow makes it work.    I can't imagine anyone deciding to build a hole like 17, especially back then, and I don't know how you can say this was the only way.  

I'll put it this way; take away the pretty bunkers and window dressing, and Crystal downs is still an excellent golf course.  What may be its best hole doesnt even have a bunker;  it is solely a product of the routing and the creation of the green.  Many of the holes may look nice with the bunkers, but take them away and you still have very good golf holes, or at least the bones of very good golf holes.  

Granted, Crystal Downs does have great greens and if Maxwell did them he definitely deserves credit, but even there it is the routing that determines that location and setting of these greens and goes a long way toward defining their potential. For example, one cannot just slap a horseshoe green on a hole like  No. 7 anywhere and still have it work.   The routing makes such crazy great features possible.  This green was found as much as it was made . . .










_______________________

I had the same question as Jim re Cypress.

[Andy Troeger]

Everything I've read credits the course to both MacKenzie and Maxwell, with MacKenzie's name listed first. Based on what folks are posting, listing both names seems reasonable to me.

[Niall C]

David M,

Good point, well made if I may say so. As if to illustrate the point Kyle Henderson has a just posted a photo tour of a Nicklaus (?) course called Mayacamma, I think, which shows a terrific routing amongst a fairly interesting and challenging landscape. There have been a few adverse comments about some of the bunkering and the grasslines but the quality of the routing that makes it. I'm saying that without having played the course.

To expand the discussion on that front, I think that when you look at some of these old courses, its maybe only the routing that you can judge the work of the old guys on as the greens/bunkering/window dressing will have been altered numerous times over the years.

Of course there are always exceptions such as Duff House Royal GC in Scotland, which is a MacKenzie redesign. MacKenzie largely adopted the existing routing stretching a few holes here and there and shortening some, but the course is fairly flat overall and it sis the green complexes that make it, and they are all MacKenzie.

Niall

[JC Jones]

Mackenzie didn't route Cypress Point yet he gets the credit.

Can you tell how you are sure that Mac did not route Cypress? 

Because Tom Paul said so.

[JC Jones]

Moriarity,

Thanks for your post.  I want to clarify my statement that I do think the front 9 is genius and will agree with you on 17.  What I was trying to say is that the property on the other side of the road on the back nine is a straightforward out and back and done so because of how narrow the property is up there.  I'm not sure there is any other way to route holes 12-16.

There is also a rumor that Mackenzie forgot to route 9 holes on the front and thus we have 9 jammed in between 8 and the pro shop (ironically, it is one of my favorite par 3's I've played).

I don't disagree with you regarding the importance of the routing, however, for as much as Crystal Downs is loved for the routing of the front 9, it is equally loved for it's greens.  All of which were entirely created by Maxwell.  Yes the routing pointed to the green site but it still takes genius to either a) leave the land the way it is for a green or b) modify it using shovels and horses to create what is there.

[TEPaul]

JC:

Did I say MacKenzie did not route Cypress Point?

If I said that I guess I'll be damned and go to hell. If I said that I guess I must have been swimming in a very large vat of wine at the time   because I was just about to ask you the same question Jim Nugent did----eg why did you say MacKenzie did not route Cypress Point (and/or that it is a Raynor routing)?  

As far as I know the question of the routing of Cypress and who did it is one of the most fascinating questions and illusive answers in all of golf course architecture.

I've certainly heard there was or is a Raynor Cypress routing plan floating around somewhere heretofore undiscovered but other than that I'm sure not aware what it is or what it looks like.

I was out there a couple of weeks ago during the Open and I did speak with some people about it who are pretty knowlegable on the course's history and it seems that Raynor did provide Hollins and Morse with some so-called "preliminary plans" for Cypress before he died but other than that elusive description I have no idea what that really means and it doesn't seem like anyone else does at this point either.

If someone actually finds that so-called elusive "Raynor routing" of Cypress Point I would consider it to be one of the most important discoveries of recent times with golf architecture. I actually have an inkling about where it might be if it actually ever existed but for the time being I'm sure not saying and if for some reason I happen to tell you I'm afraid I will have to kill you afterwards.

[TEPaul]

As for Crystal Downs, I've always considered the appropriate architectural attribution to be Mackenzie/Maxwell.

[Mac Plumart]

Partial thread jack...

so what is the deal with Cypress, did Mackenzie route it?

[JC Jones]

As for Crystal Downs, I've always considered the appropriate architectural attribution to be Mackenzie/Maxwell.

Why?  Does it matter that Mackenzie was there for 2 days and Maxwell for 2 years?

[TEPaul]

"Why?  Does it matter that Mackenzie was there for 2 days and Maxwell for 2 years?"


Well, sure that would matter. I think it would matter a whole lot but I have never been aware that was the case. And it would also matter to me to know exactly WHEN Mackenzie was there for only two days.

I guess you probably do know that Mackenzie very well may've been one of the "fastest studies" golf architecture has ever known. That might have something to do with why Doak seems so interested in him and wrote a book about him.

[Tom_Doak]

Maxwell had quite a bit to do with Crystal Downs.  There is even a story (unsubstantiated, because no one has ever dug up a routing plan for Crystal Downs) that Maxwell re-routed the last two holes, which is only funny because David M. brought up #17 as an example of MacKenzie's genius.

However, JC, does it matter that Crystal Downs HIRED MacKenzie and that MacKenzie brought Maxwell with him?

Or does it matter that those first few greens [especially #1, 3, 5, 6 and 7] are easily identifiable as MacKenzie's style?

This is clearly a case where it doesn't make sense just to list one guy ... but if you're going to list one guy, you can't leave out the guy the club hired!

P.S.  While no one knows what Seth Raynor's routing for Cypress Point looked like -- other than including the 16th hole per Marion Hollins -- there IS a routing for it in MacKenzie's hand where several holes are different than the final version.  And then MacKenzie modified that one before construction.  That would make it highly unlikely that all of the routing is actually Raynor's.

[TEPaul]

TomD:

Good point on your P.S.

I have heard that there is someone out there still today who claims to have actually seen that elusive Raynor routing of Cypress Point. But I think GeorgeB told me that recently and as you know because you said so yourself on here not too long ago (humorously of course) that we can never be too sure about something GeorgeB might say about Macdonald or Raynor. Since you've worked with him recently, do you have any idea when George last spoke with Macdonald or Raynor or when he might speak to them again?

I would like to know because there are plenty of inquiring minds about these days.

[Adam Clayman]

Jc. Under your argument Nicklaus doesn't deserve design credit for Sebonack. I don't think that would be right. And I'm not so sure Tom would want it that way. As for CD it was fairly obvious to me that the Doctor did more than just route. The 7th green being one of the features that appeared obviously Mackenzie esque.   

[JC Jones]

Maxwell had quite a bit to do with Crystal Downs.  There is even a story (unsubstantiated, because no one has ever dug up a routing plan for Crystal Downs) that Maxwell re-routed the last two holes, which is only funny because David M. brought up #17 as an example of MacKenzie's genius.

Are you saying no one has ever tried or no one has ever found such a routing plan?

However, JC, does it matter that Crystal Downs HIRED MacKenzie and that MacKenzie brought Maxwell with him?

I'm not sure that matters.  To me, the person who designed the course is the one who designed the course, not the one who was hired by the club to design the course.

Or does it matter that those first few greens [especially #1, 3, 5, 6 and 7] are easily identifiable as MacKenzie's style?

Please elaborate as to how they are MacKenzie's style?  I certainly see what you are saying with regards to #3, but #1 doesn't seem any more Mackenzie-esque than #13 does.

This is clearly a case where it doesn't make sense just to list one guy ... but if you're going to list one guy, you can't leave out the guy the club hired!

The first part of the above makes complete sense, which is my point.  The latter part is complete nonsense.

P.S.  While no one knows what Seth Raynor's routing for Cypress Point looked like -- other than including the 16th hole per Marion Hollins -- there IS a routing for it in MacKenzie's hand where several holes are different than the final version.  And then MacKenzie modified that one before construction.  That would make it highly unlikely that all of the routing is actually Raynor's.

But didn't Cypress Point HIRE Raynor first?

[TEPaul]

"But didn't Cypress Point HIRE Raynor first?   "


JC:

Yes they did. I think few are aware that the club was basically the idea and project of Marion Hollins' and not Morse, but she did get Raynor to offer what were reputedly some 'preliminary plans' (whatever that meant)-----but the schmuck had the bad form to die of pneumonia on her before he could do any more than just that. So they then turned to Mackenzie even though I heard someone mention the other day it may've been possible that HH Barker was seen on a train in California around that time so maybe the routing of Cypress was actually his.

Morse also tried to get Macdonald to do Monterrey Peninsula, I believe it was, but CB turned him down flat. And that would not have been unusual for CB at that time considering he had been in his approximately two decade long architectural "renunciation mode" for close to a decade at that point for all but the very biggest of the big time Captains of the Universe. Not that Morse was some smaller timer, mind you, because he most certainly wasn't, but you know C.B; he was kind of an uber-snob in some ways and probably felt anything west of Chicago was outter space and that the coast of California was just something akin to bunch of Indians trying to breed with some Chinese immigrant fishermen people or else a bunch of no-count reprobates sifting silt in creeks looking for some quick BLING.

[Jeff_Brauer]

JC,

You can argue that all you want, but Maxwell would have never had the opportunity to contribute if not for Mac.  The head of the firm gets credit in all cases.  And, Mac routed most of it with Maxwell, and you can see his hands in the front nine, while the back nine for whatever reason looks like Maxwell. But, its not unusual for associates to build courses and thus have partial influence in the design, but it is presumed to be under the direction of Mac as senior partner.  BTW, the UM course has elements of the same split personality regarding the greens, IMHO>

This whole thing gets into whether if a firm and club decided long ago who should get the credit, should some internet board participants have the right to change that 90 years later based mostly on opinion, rather than the opinion of those who were there at the time?  Absent lots of documentation, how can any of us be sure who did what?

[Tom_Doak]

JC:  I don't know how hard anyone has looked for a plan of Crystal Downs, but no one has ever claimed to have seen one, as far as I've heard.

The greens I mentioned are full of little tiers not on straight lines, and/or multiple "bowled" pin placement areas, as MacKenzie drew on many of his greens plans for other courses.  I am fairly confident in saying that he was around when these were built.  #13 by contrast ... a high tier in front and then a sharp fallaway to back left and back right hole locations ... Maxwell had built one of those at Old Town just a couple of years before Crystal Downs, I think.

[Phil_the_Author]

Tom,

You stated, "While no one knows what Seth Raynor's routing for Cypress Point looked like -- other than including the 16th hole per Marion Hollins..."

I may have inadvertently stumbled across the a copy of the Raynor Cypress Point proposed course. In some recent researches for another California course, I discovered that at Stanford University: Manuscripts Division, there is a collection titled "Samuel F.B. Morse papers, 1911-1969" in which BOX 4, FOLDER 42, contains telegrams between Marion Hollins and Roger Lapham concerning the incorporation of the "Cypress point Golf Club."

More importantly, in BOX 4, FOLDER 43, contains the following: "Includes correspondence regarding the organization, incorporation and construction of Cypress Point U.C., blueprint of golf course and residential subdivision surrounding it. Contract of sale between D.M.P.C. and Cypress Point Golf Club.

Most importantly, BOX 4, FOLDER 44, contains "Sale of Land for Cypress Point Golf Club." The scope and contents note states, "Marion Hollins secured an option to buy a certain amount of land from D.M.P.C. to be made into Cypress Point U.C. also includes her proposal of the Club and a tentative contract."

If anyone out that way wants to take a look email me and I'll give you all the details I have. If you can wait, then when I'm next out that way in a couple of months, I'll definitely go see what they have.

Just from the descriptions and notes about the different parts of the collection I am led to believe that at least a basic routing of the proposed Raynor course must be part of it because these refer to the"proposed" land purchase, which would have been ebfore Mackenzie and Hunter were brought in.
 

[BCrosby]

Sean Tully. Paging Sean Tully. Please call the front desk.

[Phil_the_Author]

Bob,

The problem for Sean is that he can only go on weekends. The California school system shuts all of the libraries, archives and research centers on campus on weekends because of budget problems and have done so for several years. 

P.s. - check your IM

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