[Joe Bausch]

Victoria National #16.  Par 3 (208/168 yards).  The last pic is the view of the green you get from the 15th hole fairway.

[Joe Bausch]

Victoria National #17.  Dogleg-right par 4 (454/414 yards).

[Joe Bausch]

Victoria National #18.  Dogleg-right par 4 (432/405 yards).

[Joe Bausch]

I hope you enjoyed the photo tour of Victoria National Golf Club.  It is quite the place.  I am grateful to my host at VN, a fellow that keeps a lower profile here on GolfClubAtlas.  Perhaps he'll chime in.   

Later that day I drove up to play the 4th course of this trip, the last of my photo tour, the Donald Ross course at French Lick.  Stay tuned, but I'm confident we need a day or so to digest and discuss Fazio's Victoria National.   

[Joe Bausch]

Joe,

I have not ever been to Victoria, but I am curious what your thoughts are in comparison to Belterra.  A lot of people say that Fazio's courses all look alike, but I don't see a ton of comparison between the two in your photos.  VN's greens look much more interesting, but the hole layouts don't necessarily look that similar.  I'm curious what your thoughts are.

Belterra is a fine course, but Victoria is a step-up.  No question about that IMO.  I think the two courses we're built perhaps less than 3 years apart and I wonder if the earlier VN and the acclaim it received upon opening didn't effect Belterra a little bit.  I think there is a vague similarity of some of the holes on the northern part of Belterra to Victoria.

Also, if you like Cambridge you will love Sultan's Run.  There are a couple of holes that are either love them or hate them on the front nine, but overall it is a much better site and a much better course in my mind.  Liddy also has several solid to great efforts in the Indy area if you can get here.  The Trophy Club should be on your list of visits in Indy. 

I intend to play SR and some other Liddy courses the next time I'm back in Heavensville.  I also have a sister up in northern Indiana, and I want to hit some courses up that way too.

Great job on portraying the SW corner of Indiana.  By the way, the weather at Cambridge looks exactly like it was the day I was there two years ago.  Is it always like that there?

There may be places as hot and uncomfortable as southern Indiana in the summer, but I've never been to any place hotter.

[Chris_Clouser]

Good job on the photos of VN.  I wish John K. was still on here to chip in with his thoughts. 

I think VN and Belterra both appear to show the things that Fazio is known for.  The appearance of the course is exemplary.  I think the photos of Belterra and VN also show something I have written before on here.  Fazio is the master of the anti-strategic design of golf courses.  Almost every hole has a heroic side and, as Forrest Richardson termed it in his book, a "freeway" side.  The daring player will have a tough shot off the tee.  If they succeed then they are rewarded with another difficult test on the approach.  The player that plays safe may take an extra shot to the green, but they will be given a clear entry and a potential chance at par.  The preferred angle is always the longer way through to the green.  It was that way at Belterra.  It was that way on the only other Fazio course I have played.  And it appears to be that way at VN. 

If Fazio did one thing with his courses, flip the greens to provide a clear angle to the guy with the more daring tee shot, I think people on this site would eat up his stuff like steak and lobster. 

I think Fazio appeals to two vast components of the golf market.  The guy who wants to be the daredevil on every shot and prove he can hit the shots the pros hit and the guy who just wants to go out and play a beautiful course and just hit it to tee to green.  Each won will be rewarded if they pull off their shots, and they both will be humbled if they don't.  Sure it isn't St. Andrews, but who said it has to be.

[JR Potts]

God, those fans.  They're everywhere.  It's like Don Quixote playing golf.

The rest of it looks really good.

[Sean Leary]

VN looks really good and really hard.  Are they Fazio's most severe set of greens?

[John Mayhugh]

Thanks for the photo tour, Joe. 

I think VN is a visual delight but is just too difficult for me.  The very tall rough off the fairways has swallowed way too many of my balls (stroke & distance) in the two times I've played there.  If you look at the photos Ran's 2002 profile, the rough appears much more manageable.  I wonder if Fazio intended for those areas to get as deep and thick as they are today.

[Anthony_Nysse]

God, those fans.  They're everywhere.  It's like Don Quixote playing golf.

The rest of it looks really good.

A VERY small price to pay to have healthy, living bentgrass so far south. Kinloch has fans, Southern Hills does, Colonial does, Quail Hollow and I know a bunch of courses in the northeast wish they had fans right now... Oakmont even had some fans up

[Anthony Gray]

Victoria National #16.  Par 3 (208/168 yards).  The last pic is the view of the green you get from the 15th hole fairway.

   Therte is just nowhere to miss on this hole. I found it to be the most difficult 3 on the course.

  ARG

[Jim Franklin]

VN is my favorite Fazio and up until recently, was in my top 10 anywhere (for those counting, Rock Creek knocked it out). It is a very difficult course, but I found it very interesting and would love to play it again soon. The day we played was 100+ degrees and just brutal.

[George Pazin]

Joe, how would you compare Victoria National to Pete Dye GC? Seem like similar properties.

Thanks for the pix, as always.

[Joe Bausch]

Joe, how would you compare Victoria National to Pete Dye GC? Seem like similar properties.

George, I think the properties are similar in that they each are built on some unusual land.  But VN even more so than PDGC.  The land where all those strip mines existed is pretty darn flat.  But the mining process created some minor (!) elevation changes.  PDGC is much more hilly, IMO.

I love both of the courses.  Even more so if I'm playing well.   Both are very unkind to poor play, IMO.

[ward peyronnin]

Hi Treehouse

We are very fortunate to have a golf course the caliber of VNGC with the staff and service in So Indiana and i am very grateful to the Friedman family and Mr Fazio.. The course is challenging for the average golfer but so is Oakmaont etc. and repeated play diminishes the terror. With the exception of a cuople holes i find not to my liking ( 3 and 16) the shot values and scenery combine to make a top rate experience. What manmy fail to realize is thhat in addition to the visual intimidation one experiences with every tee ball getting up and down around the greens is not only not  sure thing but can turn into a double bogey very easily. It is a tough medal course but many shots result in a tolerable or even fun position from which to play your next shot. It is more penal than i prefer but it beats playing Hamiltons( now thunderbolt pass)

But playing in the gloaming on a decent evening  is a beautiful time ( if the fans are quiet) Glimmers or Pebble Beach, fine dunesland courses, gorgeous parkland holes all shimmer on the edge of perception without giving up the terroir of the midwest. As with many of us i wish we could keep it firmer and faster ( it was sublime this spring). Althuogh several places where one would like to think a running shot is playable the front corridor and lip of the green do not combine to deliver that( too soft and tilted# 12) or drainage structures severely compromise( #3 specifically) . So my advice to first time players is to bring lots of balls and pick a spot and just try to trust your swing as much as possible and enjoy the scene and company.

Thanks for the photo album Joe

Ward Peyronnin

[George Pazin]

I love both of the courses.

Appreciate the tact in your response, pardner. What sort of Doak number would you give each? How many Fazio and Dye courses have you played?? How would you split ten plays from the tippy tips???

Just kidding. Thanks again for the pix, looking forward to seeing French Lick.

[Mike Cirba]

I think it's sort of interesting that one of the major ciriticisms I hear of Tom Fazio is that his courses are sort of vapid, and really don't play very clhallengingly.

VN looks to be extremely demanding, and a course requiring very precise play or big penalties loom.   

Joe, do you think the site dictated that severity, or do you think the club membership was desiring of a very difficult golf course in the Wolf Run mode?

[Joe Bausch]

Joe, do you think the site dictated that severity, or do you think the club membership was desiring of a very difficult golf course in the Wolf Run mode?

A combo of both, but I would lean more toward the latter.  I remember reading stuff about the course that my Dad would send me from the local paper when it was being developed and built, and I think the owner Terry Friedman (now deceased unfortunately) really demanded a tough golf course.

[Sean Leary]

I love both of the courses.

Appreciate the tact in your response, pardner. What sort of Doak number would you give each? How many Fazio and Dye courses have you played?? How would you split ten plays from the tippy tips???

Somehow, that never gets old...

[Scott_Burroughs]

I love both of the courses.

Appreciate the tact in your response, pardner. What sort of Doak number would you give each? How many Fazio and Dye courses have you played?? How would you split ten plays from the tippy tips???

Gotta amend your last sentence, George, and break it up into a few more:

"Have you played Fazio courses from all parts of the country?  As one who travels a good bit and hits the ball a long ways, could you list the course rating and slope from the tips?  How would you split ten plays?  Thanks!"



I also found VN to be incredibly hard, probably the hardest I've ever played.  Certainly it was the tightest driving course I've ever played, edging out Primland.  I believe I noted that there were only a few driver holes on the course, it was so narrow, #6 and #9, and maybe #10.  I tried hitting driver on the par 5 3rd, only to block it slightly and it was long gone.  Hit 3-iron off the tee on re-tee, and proceeded to birdie that ball for a 6    .  A slightly blocked tee shot on the long par 4 14th went into the hlll on the right.  Only a few holes have some room off the narrow fairways and it's often on only one side.

[Brian Joines]

For those that have played both, how does VN compare to Wolf Run in terms of difficulty?

[Mike Cirba]

Have the members ever thought about perhaps making the course a bit more forgiving, or is it one of those places where the difficulty of the course is worn like a badge of honor?

In some ways, I can see that pride being easier to swallow at a place like Oakmont, where most of the peril and the quick additional shots to the scorecard is around the green and in the form of putts, but I find that thinking a bit more difficult to understand when it comes in the form of lost balls and penalty shots.

Still, be curious to know the prevailing thinking and whether once you're more familiar with the course whether it continues to play as difficult as it looks for the first-time observer?

[Joe Bausch]

I'm told by a member at VN (JK) that the course has been softened some since the opening.  In fact, this 50 year old fellow shot 69 on it a couple of weeks ago!

[Joe Bausch]

After playing VN in the morning, I headed up to French Lick (I think maybe a 100 minute drive from E'ville) to play the Donald Ross course.  Just a couple of days later the PGA Club Professional Championship was being held there and at the Dye course, so I was lucky to have the course in pretty good tournament condition.

Here is the routing of this 1917 course that hosted the 1924 PGA Championship.  Note, this aerial is from 2005 and the restoration by Schmidt Curley Design Group hasn't been carried out yet.

[Joe Bausch]

I'll post the front nine pics this afternoon.  The lighting was not the best this day as it was brutally hot and humid, but later in the round it does improve.

The greens at French Lick Ross are wonderful.  Unfortunately, the pics don't always do them justice.

French Lick Ross #1.  A down-then-up par 4 (422 yards).  BTW:  from the back tees the course is 74.7/135.

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