[Paul OConnor]

"Now that is an interesting take on what constitutes child abuse."

It's the difference between discipline and abuse !

[Tim Martin]

One of the most agonizing contributors to slow play is the player that waits until it is his turn to read the putt from the other side of the hole. For the life of me I can`t figure out why everyone but the guy that is initially away doesn`t have their putt read from both sides or every other angle for that matter when it is his turn. I believe this was picked up by most guys watching golf on TV. Annoying is not a strong enough adjective for this practice.

[Phil McDade]

Popular topic, and I agree about slow play sucking.  A few points.

1.  I can honestly say that there are participants to this thread that are hypocrites.  I don't profess to be the quickest player by any means (I believe Dave S. rated me a 5 or 6 on a scale of 1-10 for pace of play a few years ago for frame of reference), but there are some participants to this thread that don't walk the walk.  (My 3 some waiting behind your 2 some in events with holes open ahead, etc.)  

For the record, Brad and I:

-- Live within a few miles of each other;

-- Equally disdain University Ridge near Madison, a course whose -- on topic here at GCA! -- design elements actively encourage slow play; and

-- Have played (I believe) one round together, and I was absolutely awful, but I don't believe unduly slow. But I was also snapping alot of pics for a GCA thread, so there may have been some dawdling on my part.

[Garland Bayley]

If you are not a tour player, you are not good enough to play slow. I doubt any of these kids are tour players yet.

I can understand a practice swing being necessary.........................when you are 50+ years in age and the temp is below 60, you need to warm up the muscles a teeeny bit.

[Brent Hutto]

The biggest issue with all this crap isn't the effect on pace of play. It's the continuing evolution of the Game of golf into something that has to be broken down into endless preparations, plannings, rehearsals and indulging in emotionally stunted behaviors which elevate wishful thinking and fear of failure to the level of "pre-shot routine".

All the coaches and magazine writers and Tour players other self-appointed "experts" will not rest until they've drained every ounce of fun and spontaneity out golf and replaced it with tedium and the search for six-sigma perfection in an activity than can never actually be mastered.

P.S. I remember the last lesson I had on my "pre-shot routine". It involved my teaching pro standing behind me with a stopwatch. Once I walked up to the ball and reached for a club I had 16 seconds to get the ball in the air. The ideal was 12-15 seconds but 16 was the outer limit. Most so-called elite players now spend more than 16 seconds standing stock still before they even start their 2-minute "routine".

[Mike Hendren]

I attended the NCAA men's Division 1 championship at the Honors Course for the semi-final matches.    Match play twosomes taking over four hours if the match went to 18.  Coaches consulting with the players in the fairways and reading putts on the greens.  Oregon's Casey Martin was in his player's hip pocket on the greens.  Range-finders. 

Above all what really stood out is players standing so close to their opponent's line of sight.  Very noticeable at the 9th where many players laid up off the tee and some hit driver, perhaps 50 yards farther up the fairway.  The long hitter would walk immediately to his ball and stand perhaps 15 yards to the side of the short hitter's line of flight.  Everybody did it and it did not appear to irk the short hitters.  The rules must be different these days.

Why can't they be like we were -
Perfect in every way?
What's the matter with kids today?

Mike

[Phil McDade]

Mike:

Funny you should mention that. I watched some of the Western Junior here in Wisconsin last week, and noticed the same thing -- long players walking well past the shorter ones to be near their ball.

Actually I was somewhat heartened by what I saw at the Junior -- an elite field of high school players. Not bad re. pace of play from tee to green. But still pretty slow on the greens -- admittedly, on some tough greens.

[John Moore II]

Jeff, I work with kids through the First Tee program, and one of my primary rules is no pre-shot routine.  I don't even allow practice swings.  The kids are fine with it, but other instructors who are are teaching pre-shot routines as a given seem to think I'm either a heretic or deranged.  Kinda crazy when we're talking about 8-12 year olds.

Gary,
Right on.
We host these same juniors in a month-I'm seriously considering a local rule prohibiting practice swings (at least it saves turf wear), and also a local rule where you may not adjust your ball once you've set it down on the green (easily the most disturbing thing I've seen in years).
They were given a pace of play lecture on the first tee by the starter, but no strategy or plan to acheive it. (which is why they thought I was crazy for attempting to limit their preshot chatter,increase their readiness,reduce their  practice swings, and cheater-line nonsense)

Kevin, That occurred three groups in front of me.(there were probably 50 people watching.
At a minimum, I felt the starter should've pulled the kid aside after he hit and gently explained the appropriate procedure(if not an outright intervention)
I quietly spoke to the starter about it and I don't think he got the point.

Jeff-Don't worry about getting so specific. Tell them that the first person to play from the tee, fairway or green has one minute to complete his shot from the time he gets within 10 feet of his ball. Every other person has 40 seconds. I think that is the typical time limit for large tournaments if a group is on the clock. Have a referee/timekeeper with the first group off the tee and inform all other groups they must keep pace with the first group. That would make the pace at least bearable.

Just keep players on the clock, if a player goes to 1:01 or something, let it go, but if he gets to 1:15 give a warning that he was over on time. And if he goes over 1:45, even on a first offense, immediate one stroke penalty. First offense: warning, Second: one stroke, Third: two strokes, Fourth: escort them off the course.

It would not be exceptionally hard, I don't think, to get enough volunteer rules officials/time keepers to make this work.

[JMEvensky]

Actually I was somewhat heartened by what I saw at the Junior -- an elite field of high school players. Not bad re. pace of play from tee to green. But still pretty slow on the greens -- admittedly, on some tough greens.

A friend's son played.In his opinion(the son's),"tough" doesn't begin to describe them.That said,he really loved the golf course.Neither the son nor the father thought the pace of play was bad--better than most AJGA events,in their opinion.

[Brad Swanson]

Popular topic, and I agree about slow play sucking.  A few points.

1.  I can honestly say that there are participants to this thread that are hypocrites.  I don't profess to be the quickest player by any means (I believe Dave S. rated me a 5 or 6 on a scale of 1-10 for pace of play a few years ago for frame of reference), but there are some participants to this thread that don't walk the walk.  (My 3 some waiting behind your 2 some in events with holes open ahead, etc.)  

For the record, Brad and I:

-- Live within a few miles of each other;

-- Equally disdain University Ridge near Madison, a course whose -- on topic here at GCA! -- design elements actively encourage slow play; and

-- Have played (I believe) one round together, and I was absolutely awful, but I don't believe unduly slow. But I was also snapping alot of pics for a GCA thread, so there may have been some dawdling on my part.

Phil,
   For the record, you are not the guilty party.

Brad

[Phil McDade]

Phil:  what's your best guess as to the percentage that were Cheater Line users?  

Hard to tell; field was 156, and I maybe saw a quarter of those. If that's a fair sampling, half to 2/3's (corrected from initial post). At least one per threesome; often two; I saw a few threesomes where everyone had a line. Noticeable.

[Phil McDade]

Actually I was somewhat heartened by what I saw at the Junior -- an elite field of high school players. Not bad re. pace of play from tee to green. But still pretty slow on the greens -- admittedly, on some tough greens.

A friend's son played.In his opinion(the son's),"tough" doesn't begin to describe them.That said,he really loved the golf course.Neither the son nor the father thought the pace of play was bad--better than most AJGA events,in their opinion.

JM:

I think it must've been a fun event for the golfers, because it's not a course where you can go full-throttle off the tee, and some of the greens are probably unlike what most players encounter. I took a bunch of pics, and as soon as my sons' summer swim season is over, I hope to do a recap and photo thread.

[JMEvensky]

Actually I was somewhat heartened by what I saw at the Junior -- an elite field of high school players. Not bad re. pace of play from tee to green. But still pretty slow on the greens -- admittedly, on some tough greens.

A friend's son played.In his opinion(the son's),"tough" doesn't begin to describe them.That said,he really loved the golf course.Neither the son nor the father thought the pace of play was bad--better than most AJGA events,in their opinion.

JM:

I think it must've been a fun event for the golfers, because it's not a course where you can go full-throttle off the tee, and some of the greens are probably unlike what most players encounter. I took a bunch of pics, and as soon as my sons' summer swim season is over, I hope to do a recap and photo thread.

As to the greens,I gave him full warning after seeing some pictures here(probably yours).I guess he thought I was embellishing.

Unfortunately,my friend's son only knows full throttle off the tee.He learned a valuable lesson.

I think the washout/36 hole final day took away some of his fun.Still,he thought the golf course was a blast.They also thought the tournament was incredibly well run.

Now,when I say the words Raynor and Redan they understand.Chalk up another small victory for GCA.com.

[Phil McDade]

That Redan is terrific. One of the best holes there, from where I sit.

The rain was really unfortunate. I walked it the first day, when they had more than an inch the night before, and the next day was totally wiped out by rain. My sense is that the greens stayed fast, but it would've been interesting to see the course play a bit faster through the green.

[jeffwarne]

Jeff, I work with kids through the First Tee program, and one of my primary rules is no pre-shot routine.  I don't even allow practice swings.  The kids are fine with it, but other instructors who are are teaching pre-shot routines as a given seem to think I'm either a heretic or deranged.  Kinda crazy when we're talking about 8-12 year olds.

Gary,
Right on.
We host these same juniors in a month-I'm seriously considering a local rule prohibiting practice swings (at least it saves turf wear), and also a local rule where you may not adjust your ball once you've set it down on the green (easily the most disturbing thing I've seen in years).
They were given a pace of play lecture on the first tee by the starter, but no strategy or plan to acheive it. (which is why they thought I was crazy for attempting to limit their preshot chatter,increase their readiness,reduce their  practice swings, and cheater-line nonsense)

Kevin, That occurred three groups in front of me.(there were probably 50 people watching.
At a minimum, I felt the starter should've pulled the kid aside after he hit and gently explained the appropriate procedure(if not an outright intervention)
I quietly spoke to the starter about it and I don't think he got the point.

Jeff-Don't worry about getting so specific. Tell them that the first person to play from the tee, fairway or green has one minute to complete his shot from the time he gets within 10 feet of his ball. Every other person has 40 seconds. I think that is the typical time limit for large tournaments if a group is on the clock. Have a referee/timekeeper with the first group off the tee and inform all other groups they must keep pace with the first group. That would make the pace at least bearable.

Just keep players on the clock, if a player goes to 1:01 or something, let it go, but if he gets to 1:15 give a warning that he was over on time. And if he goes over 1:45, even on a first offense, immediate one stroke penalty. First offense: warning, Second: one stroke, Third: two strokes, Fourth: escort them off the course.

It would not be exceptionally hard, I don't think, to get enough volunteer rules officials/time keepers to make this work.

John.
One minute for the first tee shot+40 seconds+40 seconds
+one minute for first fairway shot +40 seconds+40
+40 +40+40 for the second fairway shot
ditto for the third fairway shot
ditto for the next fairway shot
1 minute for the first putt +40 seconds sec+40 seconds
+40 seconds for second putt +40+40
+40 seconds for third putt +40+40
+ 5 minutes to walk the length of the hole

22 minutes per hole x nine =3 hours 18 minutes for nine holes

You stick with enforcement,I'll handle management.
 

That's the whole problem,you can't penalize people who play within those guidelines, but it's a ridiculous pace
who needs 40 seconds for a putt?

[John Moore II]

Jeff, I work with kids through the First Tee program, and one of my primary rules is no pre-shot routine.  I don't even allow practice swings.  The kids are fine with it, but other instructors who are are teaching pre-shot routines as a given seem to think I'm either a heretic or deranged.  Kinda crazy when we're talking about 8-12 year olds.

Gary,
Right on.
We host these same juniors in a month-I'm seriously considering a local rule prohibiting practice swings (at least it saves turf wear), and also a local rule where you may not adjust your ball once you've set it down on the green (easily the most disturbing thing I've seen in years).
They were given a pace of play lecture on the first tee by the starter, but no strategy or plan to acheive it. (which is why they thought I was crazy for attempting to limit their preshot chatter,increase their readiness,reduce their  practice swings, and cheater-line nonsense)

Kevin, That occurred three groups in front of me.(there were probably 50 people watching.
At a minimum, I felt the starter should've pulled the kid aside after he hit and gently explained the appropriate procedure(if not an outright intervention)
I quietly spoke to the starter about it and I don't think he got the point.

Jeff-Don't worry about getting so specific. Tell them that the first person to play from the tee, fairway or green has one minute to complete his shot from the time he gets within 10 feet of his ball. Every other person has 40 seconds. I think that is the typical time limit for large tournaments if a group is on the clock. Have a referee/timekeeper with the first group off the tee and inform all other groups they must keep pace with the first group. That would make the pace at least bearable.

Just keep players on the clock, if a player goes to 1:01 or something, let it go, but if he gets to 1:15 give a warning that he was over on time. And if he goes over 1:45, even on a first offense, immediate one stroke penalty. First offense: warning, Second: one stroke, Third: two strokes, Fourth: escort them off the course.

It would not be exceptionally hard, I don't think, to get enough volunteer rules officials/time keepers to make this work.

John.
One minute for the first tee shot+40 seconds+40 seconds
+one minute for first fairway shot +40 seconds+40
+40 +40+40 for the second fairway shot
ditto for the third fairway shot
ditto for the next fairway shot
1 minute for the first putt +40 seconds sec+40 seconds
+40 seconds for second putt +40+40
+40 seconds for third putt +40+40
+ 5 minutes to walk the length of the hole

22 minutes per hole x nine =3 hours 18 minutes for nine holes

You stick with enforcement,I'll handle management.
 

That's the whole problem,you can't penalize people who play within those guidelines, but it's a ridiculous pace
who needs 40 seconds for a putt?

I'd say just about anyone needs 40 seconds for a 25 foot putt. And I think from the fairway, that is a very fair pace. And I guess your math is right if they guys are shooting 90. But for a high level event, AJGA or the like, that pace can work because they guys are shooting near par. I mean, if you have a field full of guys, 140+, all shooting 90 then you're going to have slow play.

Lets look at the very first comment of this thread, 6 practice swings and such. If the 60/40 second standards were in place there, how much faster would that player have been? Just think about that.

Certainly if every player goes to the max of the allowable time, it will take forever. But not everyone will take the whole amount of time. And the ones who do will either play faster or be removed from the course. Either way, play will speed up.

[John_Conley]

Well, I'm dead nuts certain you're not speaking about me.  Just naturally, I walk faster than anybody I know, including on the golf course, so I'm often to the ball 30 or 40 yards before anybody else.  I don't take practice swings.  My ball is in the air before most guys pull a club.  And I don't use cheater lines.  The only time I waste is looking for errant balls, cracking beers and pissing in the woods, and even at that, I try to economize time by waiting until I hit a wild drive before relieving myself... 

Not me, Dave.  I can play real fast if I want to, but what you describe makes the "hurry up to wait" phenomenon aggravating for me.  In competition I'd rather wait on myself than at a tee box trying to make up some dumb activity to kill the time.

I haven't played competitively for many years so it isn't an issue now.  I'd rather go out alone at the end of the day, mainly because it takes a lot less time.

[John_Conley]

I occasionally play with a Dr. and his two sons at my home course.  They are 11 and 13.  They are pretty good ball strikers, with beautiful fluid swings.  They NEVER take practice swings, are ALWAYS ready to hit, will frequently hit out of turn (God forbid!), never mark a ball on the green, and will putt without removing the flagstick.  They seem to be having fun.  They play like this because they were TAUGHT, by their father, to play like this.  We can play 18 in 3 1/2 hours or less, easy.  

Do they play competitively?  I'm guessing these aren't AJGA or Leadbetter Academy kids.  I'd rather my son follow their path.  Love the game and it lasts a lifetime.  Play competitively as a pre-teen and who knows?

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