[jeffwarne]

Jeff, I work with kids through the First Tee program, and one of my primary rules is no pre-shot routine.  I don't even allow practice swings.  The kids are fine with it, but other instructors who are are teaching pre-shot routines as a given seem to think I'm either a heretic or deranged.  Kinda crazy when we're talking about 8-12 year olds.

Gary,
Right on.
We host these same juniors in a month-I'm seriously considering a local rule prohibiting practice swings (at least it saves turf wear), and also a local rule where you may not adjust your ball once you've set it down on the green (easily the most disturbing thing I've seen in years).
They were given a pace of play lecture on the first tee by the starter, but no strategy or plan to acheive it. (which is why they thought I was crazy for attempting to limit their preshot chatter,increase their readiness,reduce their  practice swings, and cheater-line nonsense)

Kevin, That occurred three groups in front of me.(there were probably 50 people watching.
At a minimum, I felt the starter should've pulled the kid aside after he hit and gently explained the appropriate procedure(if not an outright intervention)
I quietly spoke to the starter about it and I don't think he got the point.

[PCCraig]

Juniors are slow, adults are slow, and seniors are slow. If it's not a pre-shot routine it's something else...

A two ball with one of my friends on a somewhat empty course takes roughly 3 hours, a four ball about 3:20-3:30. I would rather watch paint dry than stand on a golf course for more than 4:20. 6 hours? I would rather go to the Dentist

[Bill_McBride]

When I played college golf in the '60's, we played match play, one school against another.  The first medal play we saw was in the 36-hole conference championship tournament.  (This in the CSAA with UCSB, LA State, Fresno State, San Diego State, etc)   

Now that the AJGA and college golf are the training ground and low minors for the professional tours, what would you expect but 5-hour medal play rounds?

[Brent Hutto]

Juniors are slow, adults are slow, and seniors are slow. If it's not a pre-shot routine it's something else...

A two ball with one of my friends on a somewhat empty course takes roughly 3 hours, a four ball about 3:20-3:30. I would rather watch paint dry than stand on a golf course for more than 4:20. 6 hours? I would rather go to the Dentist

Amen.

People play as fast or slow as they want to play, unless they're be held up by those ahead of them. I have seen plenty of able-bodied golfers with no cheater line, no practice swing, no discernible pre-shot routine muck about for 4-1/2 hours or more playing a round of golf. And I've seen golfers with elaborate rituals play in well under 4 hours. The only difference is the 4-1/2 hour guys expect the round to take 4-1/2 hours so it does.

No pre-shot routine and no practice swing!?!? Every kid should have a pre-shot routine and take a practice swing. I have drilled that into my kid from the very beginning.

Why on Earth would you believe that to be true? A practice swing on every shot? Seriously?

[Phil McDade]

Jeff, I work with kids through the First Tee program, and one of my primary rules is no pre-shot routine.  I don't even allow practice swings.  The kids are fine with it, but other instructors who are are teaching pre-shot routines as a given seem to think I'm either a heretic or deranged.  Kinda crazy when we're talking about 8-12 year olds.

No pre-shot routine and no practice swing!?!? Every kid should have a pre-shot routine and take a practice swing. I have drilled that into my kid from the very beginning. You guys are taking this way too far. I seriously doubt this is the cause of slow play. Maybe a few kids shooting 113 has more to do wih the slow play, but I wouldn't think of banning those kids. The preshot routine and practice swing is fundamental in my experience. The scary part about the future is you guys ruling over junior golf.

Kelly:

You should get out more. Many of the better high school players I've seen -- some of whom will be playing Div. 1 collegiate golf soon -- are agonizingly slow, mainly tied to excessive pre-shot routines and fussiness on the greens.

Addendum: Just to cite one example -- at a high school qualifying tournament a year ago, I saw a kid (pretty good golfer, their team's #1 or #2 player) come up short of the green on his second shot. He was 40 yards short of the green, pin in the middle, wide opening to the green, no traps or water to consider -- basically 40 yards of flat fairway between him and the front of the green. He mulled his club selection for about a minute, selected a wedge, took SEVEN practice swings (divots on at least three of them), then took his stance, adjusted his grip, and finally hit the shot.

He left it five yards short of the green.

[Dan Herrmann]

I'm a huge fan of the FCWT in this area.  I've done rules for them, and they're fantastic on pace of play.  Their policies and procedures work!

http://www.fcwtgolf.com/paceofplaypolicy.shtml

[John_Cullum]

This is exactly why my kid has tired of playing junior tournaments.  10 year olds grinding over 5 footers all day.  I can understand wanting medal play scores to rank high school seniors and college players, but why can't these kids play mostly match play at this age?

What I really can't understand is how my son LOVES playing these events, yet hardly ever plays casual rounds, despite frequent opportunities.
He putts quickly in the events,rarely even marking his ball (with not great success but no less success than the cheater liners).
He was a couple groups ahead of the group I chaperoned, and every time I saw him he was having fun, smiling...... and waiting.
Never heard him complain about the pace

I believe a big part of the "problem" of slow play for the juniors is that they are just kids. They are having fun, and they have no where else they need to be. They would stretch out a round to 8 hours if they could figure out how, but they can play fast if they are made to. They will run a round the course if you tell them to.

College players are a whole other set of problems. One big problem with college is too many players on the course. Every tournament wants to have 18 teams in the event. The course gets saturated, and under every set of pace of play rules I have ever seen, you can't penalize a player unless the group is out of position

[Jerry Kluger]

I recently attended a US Open Sectional Qualifier and I was surprised at the pace of play.  Perhaps it was the fact that they had to play 36 that caused them to play faster than expected.  The only holdup was on reachable par 5s but putting was not the cause of slow play.  I think perhaps that the players adapt to the slowest person in the field and by that I mean if they see that they are going to have to wait if they keep up a decent pace then they purposely slow down.

BTW: The group I followed included Jamie Lovemark and another Nationwide player as well as a 14 year old from Florida.  Lovemark is one of the top Nationwide players and blasts the ball - the 14 year old kept up with him and they both shot 2 under for the nine holes I watched.

[Matthew Petersen]

This is exactly why my kid has tired of playing junior tournaments.  10 year olds grinding over 5 footers all day.  I can understand wanting medal play scores to rank high school seniors and college players, but why can't these kids play mostly match play at this age?

What I really can't understand is how my son LOVES playing these events, yet hardly ever plays casual rounds, despite frequent opportunities.
He putts quickly in the events,rarely even marking his ball (with not great success but no less success than the cheater liners).
He was a couple groups ahead of the group I chaperoned, and every time I saw him he was having fun, smiling...... and waiting.
Never heard him complain about the pace

It's been more than ten years since I was a junior player, but this was my experience. Particularly in high school, at which point I was a fair player at best but often paired with very good players (Kevin Stadler among them, though he wasn't slow). I have always played fast. If a have a flaw it's that I give up a stroke here and there because I don't have much of a pre-shot routine and don't look much at putts. That's never been the point for me.

But mostly I was just patient. HS tournaments and AJGA and other junior events were horrifically slow--I mean, 5 hours would have been considered not bad. I just got used to waiting and didn't let it bother me.

[Gary Daughters]

Kelly, group golf lessons involving a dozen or more students and one instructor are different animal than working with your kids.  No practice swings helps keep a lesson moving.  That said, if it strikes you as going overboard this thread is a good example of what we're up against.  I think my obligation extends beyond my students to the people who'll be playing with them and behind them.. hopefully for years to come. 

While I'm aware of the arguments for pre-shot routines, I don't understand your sense of certitude on this.  When did this become an essential part of golf and who made it so? 

[Gary Daughters]

Kelly, I don't think we're even disagreeing.  When I hear "pre-shot routine" I think of the elaborate choreograpy Bob Rotella preaches and, say, Jim Furyk practices with maddening fervor.  What I teach is that target selection happens before (operative word) the player's turn so that he/she is not only focused but also aware of an obligation to be ready to play.  

[Mike Wagner]

Every kid should take a practice swing???  NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!

Full practice swings shold be considered a shot.  Waggle and go.

Do your practicing on the range!

[Melvyn Morrow]

I have seen the future too but then I suppose anything that reduces carts must be Good News.

I wake at night thinking of a cart invasion on our courses in 4 ball formation. Starting to get the urge to shout ‘Carts, Carts, my Kingdom (of Fife) for a cart’ – but then I would never say that so I stick to the thoughts of ‘Its Good News Week’ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q4KzGKnuUuc ) in the knowledge that ‘Doctors finding many ways of wrapping brains on metal trays to keep us from the heat’.

So you buggers can now walk in hot climates – no need for any carts - I have seen the future and its Good News Week, well, see what happens when you believe in Lord Flashheart that is http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_b2R2BcMjYg&feature=related

Anyone think there is a touch of Flashheart in Shivas

Melvyn

[Brad Swanson]

Popular topic, and I agree about slow play sucking.  A few points.

1.  I can honestly say that there are participants to this thread that are hypocrites.  I don't profess to be the quickest player by any means (I believe Dave S. rated me a 5 or 6 on a scale of 1-10 for pace of play a few years ago for frame of reference), but there are some participants to this thread that don't walk the walk.  (My 3 some waiting behind your 2 some in events with holes open ahead, etc.)  

2.  I too have seen a number of juniors at my club whose routine is not proportional to their skill level (not that proficiency justifies slow play).  It is discouraging.  

3.  In events, the players that adapt best to the slow play are the successful ones.  Its a viscous cycle .

Brad

[John_Conley]

My family is deep into youth team sports with my son.  Our summer vacation is built around a hockey tournament in Boston.  I keep thinking of this parallel world where my 8-year-old could go to some "national" championship with his set of a few US Kids clubs to basically have the joy sapped out of playing golf.  Maybe not initially, but ultimately.

He's always had clubs.  He's even always had shoes.  Occasionally (very) we play.  And he does well.  If he wants to get serious about it as a teen maybe he could even become a good player.

Thanks for the thread.  It makes me feel real good about my anti-junior-golf posture.  Kids at young ages "play" team sports.  It just doesn't seem like golf or tennis is "playing".

[Rich Brittingham]

I think inherently a forum such a GCA is going to give much wieght to pace of play, and rightly so.  But we GCA'ers are only a small portion of the golfing public and for many of them, my playing partners and the random foursomes I'm stuck behind every weekend, it is an absolute joy to be on the golf course and why would they want to rush their way through it?  
    90% of the people out there are double digits handicappers who are just happy to be enjoying this wonderful game.  And with the scary decrease in number of golfers, number of annual rounds, course closures, out of work architects; its this majority of players that we unfortunately have to accomodate.  Yes the pace of play may turn off many would-be golfers, but if someone dutifully plays there weekend round in 5 1/2 hours every saturday, in many ways the golf course community should be glad to have them.
Unless your playing at a private club there can be no complaints about pace of play.

[Brad Swanson]

Popular topic, and I agree about slow play sucking.  A few points.

1.  I can honestly say that there are participants to this thread that are hypocrites.  I don't profess to be the quickest player by any means (I believe Dave S. rated me a 5 or 6 on a scale of 1-10 for pace of play a few years ago for frame of reference), but there are some participants to this thread that don't walk the walk.  (My 3 some waiting behind your 2 some in events with holes open ahead, etc.)  

Brad

Well, I'm dead nuts certain you're not speaking about me. 

Nope, not you, Dave.  I have a feeling my relatively small circle of GCA friends is going to shrink by the end of the day. 

[John Shimp]

Slow play is an issue across the board in tournament golf and junior golf but has a lot less to do with slow pre-shot routines and current instruction than it does with simple math and a lack of finding and fixing the root cause of the slowdown.  

If any of you all have ever read the business book "The Goal" you will understand what i am saying which is that the pace of play of the entire field behind it is set by single or multiple "bottlenecks" (slow player(s)) in front.  The bottleneck might be because the guy is shooting 115, or due to a stray shots and ball searching, or slow walking, or due to consistently long routines.  The only answer is to find the one or multiple slow players, target them, and correct their pace .  The problem of slow play is exacerbated by the fact that the higher scorers play first in a tournament after the initial round(s).  Unless tournaments have pga tour score bunching which isn't the case in jr tourneys poorer players will be slower to play unless on average their routines are significantly faster.  Think of the first group of jrs going off with an average score of 85 and the last group going off with an average score of 70.  

Trying to speed everyone up does no good and will not speed up play until the bottleneck guy is found and sped.  This type of targeting is why Ben Crane is now known to be a faster player than he was.  It really is up to marshalls to be willing to target and punish the problem causers.   Unless each player can shoot the same score, walk the same speed, and have the exact same routine pace will vary and be controlled by the least common denominator.  Think about it.

[Tim Pitner]

This is very disheartening, both as a golfer trying to get around in 4 hours or so and as a parent hoping to get my 7 year old girl into the game of golf.  And, as John says, it is a game meant to be played, not some robotic exercise of practice swings and elaborate pre-shot routines.  Emulating what children see on TV might play a role, but I think much blame can be put at the feet of instructors and the emphasis on swing mechanics vs playing the game.  

I don't play competitive golf and I've never paid much attention to instructional techniques like preshot routines--maybe they help some people like Kelly.  I've eliminated the practice swing from my putting routine and, on the full swing, stand behind the ball, pick a target, take a swish (not a practice swing with a divot) and then go.  Anything more than that seems excessive to me, especially if one practices a fair amount (which I do not).  

[Jud_T]

In my experience, aside from guys taking a half dozen practice swings, the biggest cause of slow play are guys who aren't ready to pull the trigger when it's their turn to play.  I have a close friend who could be a very good player if he ever cared enough to put the time in.  But he is infuriatingly slow to play with.  He'll stroll down the fairway paying no attention to what's required of his next shot. Only when it's his turn to play will he then debate with his caddy, indecisively mull his club choice, check the wind, take 2 or 3 practice swings, stand over the ball statue-like and finally play his shot.  It's gotten to the point where I'd rather not play with him than suffer the inevitable 45 minutes of zone-killing delay.  This is what needs to be addressed in junior and pro golf in my opinion.  Essentially if there's no rules question or lost ball that needs addressing, you should have 20-30 seconds to pull the trigger from the time the previous guy hits or get assessed a stroke, period....

[Paul OConnor]

I occasionally play with a Dr. and his two sons at my home course.  They are 11 and 13.  They are pretty good ball strikers, with beautiful fluid swings.  They NEVER take practice swings, are ALWAYS ready to hit, will frequently hit out of turn (God forbid!), never mark a ball on the green, and will putt without removing the flagstick.  They seem to be having fun.  They play like this because they were TAUGHT, by their father, to play like this.  We can play 18 in 3 1/2 hours or less, easy.  If they had a six swing preshot, their father would crack them in the head, and I wouldn't be playing with them.  

These kids are pretty amazing,  they respond to coaching, and learn by observing those about them.  Any adult teaching an 11 year old to take 6 practice swings and waste time fiddling with a cheater line should be arrested for child abuse.  

Come on Smales, while we're young!

[Peter Pallotta]

The practice swings that DON'T lead to a better drive (and STILL leave golfers searching in the woods) -- they do not help the pace of play at all. I see that a lot with the people I play with.  I'd be one of them too - but for that reason don't take any practice swings.  And the same with the cheater line (and lining up putts): the trouble is, only the lousiest of golfers/putters end up 10-15 feet LEFT or RIGHT of the hole; but almost everyone I play with ends up way SHORT or way LONG at least a few times a round.  I do it too - but for that reason never line up my putt/cheater line, as it would just be adding insult to injury and helps not at all when it comes to PACE. And finally, the difference between walking a course that is actually WALKABLE (and this means only one thing - that when you step off the green you are only a few paces to the next tee) and one that CAN BE WALKED is huge, time wise.

Peter 

[Garland Bayley]

... Maybe a few kids shooting 113 has more to do wih the slow play, but I wouldn't think of banning those kids....

Back off dude! Slow play is a personal attribute independent of golfing talent! Don't make me sick George Pazin on you!

[Mike Cirba]

I'm not opposed to Capital punishment for folks who can't play 18 holes in under four hours.  

[Garland Bayley]

...He mulled his club selection for about a minute, selected a wedge, took SEVEN practice swings (divots on at least three of them), then took his stance, adjusted his grip, and finally hit the shot.

He left it five yards short of the green.

It doesn't help that Sergio G writes in Golf Digest that the way to improve your feel for a partial swing shot before playing it is to take several practice swings. Think there is any chance the kids coach has been reading Sergio?

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