Aronimink...the course is the star

[TEPaul]

Good question, Matt, but I must admit this AT&T is showing something about Aronimink that some of us who have known it and played it, even in tournaments and for years, could apparently not pick up on or articulate all that well or all that comprehensively. This is a true test for it though and even if I didn't have much idea how it would show its stuff at this, the highest level, I was not prepared to see it show its stuff this well. Obviously the course and its architecture has what it takes-----there's no denying it now. We may actually not need you to go play it after many years and to then tell us what it and the quality of its architecture is really about. It looks like Tiger and Company has already done that for all of us, hopefully including you.

By the way you asked me a while ago how I thought Aronimink staked up on the Doak Scale. But you know me; I hate almost all types of ratings and rankings and I don't even understand the Doak Scale either. But if I told you Aronimink was between a 11 and a 13 on the Doak Scale, how would you feel about that?  

[Matt_Ward]

TEPaul:

I always appreciate your take on courses -- especially those in your own neighborhood.

But no course is a 13. I also have to wonder if a tournament set-up is indicative of a the course on a more usual day-to-day basis.

The max number can ony be a ten and that's reserved for the likes of a PV or Merion / East. Clearly, Aroniimink has benefited from the TC exposure and the fact that some of the best weather -- hot and dry -- has been the rule of thumb this week for optimum firm and fast conditions. The key to the course truly is centered around the putting complexes -- they have been quite vexing for the pros all week -- save for Rose.

I see the course as being immensely respected by many folks -- youself included -- but I don't see the writings that show that many really love what the course provides. Aronimink is the muscle course of the greater Phila area and clearly it has shown it is fully capable in challenging the world's best.

[Dan Herrmann]

Matt,
I LOVE WHAT THE COURSE PROVIDES.
(how's that?)

Besides, who gives a rip about ratings?  I know I don't.  Good architecture is good architecture, and I couldn't care less if Aronimink is in anybody's top 10 or 100 or 600.  I know what I like, and Aronimink has it in spades.

[Tim_Cronin]

I believe the commentary today on the CBS telecast amongst the team of CBS commentators (Faldo, Feherty, Baker/Finch and the handle-bar mustache joker) was the very best and most comprehensive and detailed regarding the architecture of Aronimink, particularly the greens, I have ever heard on a TV telecast of a professional golf tournament.

If one watched and listened carefully to their constant architectural commentary it was probably more educational than playing or studying the golf course ten times over.

CBS' crew was at its best today. The commentary, and the mix of high and low shots, really brought out the nuances. It's clear they loved it. (I didn't hear this kind of chatter at Liberty National last year! And they never go beyond the superficial at Augusta National, the world's most redesigned course.) So bravo to CBS.

Perhaps NBC's gang can do the same on its telecasts (Dan Hicks and Co. never explained a thing about Chicago GC when the NBC crew handled the Golf Channel telecast of the Walker Cup five years ago), and ABC/ESPN can do the same at the Old Course in a fortnight.

Now, as for that being more educational than playing it 10 times, let me play it 10 times and I'll let you know!

[TEPaul]

Tim:

I do think that CBS commentary crew did the most comprehensive and educational job on architecture I've ever heard on a telecast but I should also say that the very first time I remember hearing a commentator really launch into a detailed and comprehensive commentary and explanation on old architecture and how well firm and fast conditions and set-ups can play into old architecture was actually the ongoing commentary by Dottie Pepper at the US Womens Open at Newport CC some years ago.

I've always been very impressed with Dottie for that and her incisive and intelligent observations in that vein. In my opinion, she really gets it!

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Joe Logan has compiled what the PGA Tour players heve said about Aronimink this week:

http://www.myphillygolf.com/detail.asp?id=5379

[Mike Cirba]

Ryan Moore has become my favorite young American player, coupled with Geoff Ogilvy on the international stage.

These guys get it, and it's wonderfully encouraging to see.

[TEPaul]

"Quote from: Jim Sullivan on July 03, 2010, 11:17:23 AM
What did they fail to restore?


Jim
The bunkering scheme today is completely different than the course Ross built, and Prichard admits that today. He'd mistakenly thought the course was built according to a set of plans he'd discovered. At one point he led us to believe he had proof the course had actually been built that way and then later redesigned, but that proof never materialized.  
 
« Last Edit: July 03, 2010, 10:07:32 PM by Tom MacWood »"




The above statement contains inaccuraces and/or fabrications on the part of Tom MacWood (it is but one of a number of others on this thread).

Tom MacWood:

1. What led you to state Ron Prichard thought the course was designed to a set of plans he'd discovered? Did he tell you that?

2. What do you mean Ron Prichard led us to believe he had proof the course had actually been built that way and later redesigned? Did he tell you that?

3. What proof are you referring to that you say he said he had that never materialized?  
 

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Jason Sobel,ESPN's golf writer, on the player's reactions to Amink:

http://sports.espn.go.com/golf/columns/story?columnist=sobel_jason&id=5348178

[Matt_Ward]

Steve:

Help me out -- but is there much real love for the following courses -- beyond home town pride and the logitiscal elements tied to holding major events ...

Baltusrol / Lower

Congressional

Aronomink

Hats off to the folks at Aronimink but they were blessed with great weather -- not one drop -- and had the world's premier plauer in the field.

I just have to wonder if the PGA would go there -- the crowd attendance certainly helped big time because I don't see the US Open going there anytime soon -- if at all.

[Dan Herrmann]

Matt,
Why does every compliment you offer to a course outside NJ follow with the word "but"?

[Rory Connaughton]

Truly a strange thread.  I have always viewed Aronimink as part of a group of courses the include Oak Hill, Oakland Hills and Congressional.  Big manly courses designed with championship play as a key factor in informing design choices.  It is not lacking in interest.  It is not merely a slog, it has terrific green complexes, some reasonable variety, is well bunkered and possesses superlative conditioning.   Its not my favorite in the region but it cannot be said that it does not achieve exactly what was intended by Ross and the membership.  Other than criticism based on subjective tastes, what else is there to say except congratulations Aronimink!

[Phil Benedict]

I think they should hold the 2018 Open at Aronimick rather than Shinnecock just to spite Matt.

[Matt_Ward]

Phil:

Great comment -- I'm laughing if anyone seriously believes Aronimink is in the same league with Shinnecock. Do you wish to debate that?

Dan:

Sorry to bust your bubble on the gushing parade but there are elements involved here you may have not considered. The Phila area waited a long time to get Merion back -- 1981 to 2013. If things go well I don't see the USGA using another location in the area for such an event. That leaves the PGA. Check out their availability. I frankly understand the $$ decsion aspect in going to Baltusrol Lower but question the architectural elements the Lower fails to provide. Aronimink is getting plenty of respect from a host of sources -- but the love of the design -- when held against Merion - is quite clear and in little doubt.

Dan, I don't elevate Jersey courses to any favored status -- they are all considered in the same vein.

I see the likes of Congressional and Baltusrol, along with Aronimink being a certain type of course -- brawny with good greens in spots but having little else of architectural heft. Hosting a PGA Tour event and even a major doesn't automatically mean that such a course is really a home run from purely a design perspective.

Rory:

Asl yourself-- can slogs really be great courses ?

[Rory Connaughton]

Matt:

  I said that it is not merely a slog. By that I did not mean that it is a good slog. I meant it is not a slog at all!

[Dan Herrmann]

Matt,
I never implied that I thought Aronimink was better than Merion East - quite the opposite.  But that certainly doesn't mean Aronimink isn't a great course.

To summarize, see Mike's post about how RP wants you to get your tail down to Newtown Square to see it for yourself.  Your criticisms are based on the RTJ crap "modernization", not what the club has today.

[Matt_Ward]

Dan:

Define your usage of the word "great."

It would be also helpful for you to include some sort of listing -- of the places you have played that you see as "great."

I see Aronimink in the category with such places like Congressional, Baltusrol / Lower and to a lesser extend Oak Hill / East. They are all capable in hosting majors because of the logistics they can handle. Would I include any of the above as a "great" courses? Likely, Oak Hill / East would get the nod if forced to choose. I see Aronimink being a tad under the likes of OH/ East and in the same vein as Baltusrol Lower and Congressional.

Sure, having an open mind is needed. I have said as much. Look forward to playing the course later this year.

[TEPaul]

I just noticed that Aronimink's super, John Goesslin, is on here right now and so I think I speak for everyone when I say;

John Goesslin, YOU are a STAR!

(But I already knew that about five years ago).

[TEPaul]

By the way, John, how is the course holding up after such a madding crowd came through and in this excessive and humid ultra-heat?

[Mike Cirba]

How cool was it to see balls actually bounce when they hit the greens?

We talk about the greens from a putting standpoint, but to me, what the course really did was provide a thorough examination of players distance and trajectory control.

And, seeing the distance these guys kill the ball, there is no course on the planet that is going to stand up distance-wise.

None.

[D_Malley]

the main reason that AGC played so difficult last week was:

very firm conditions combined with slower green speeds

the slower speeds allowed them to place many pins in very inaccessable positions
but those pin positions were somewhat playable due to the slower putting speeds.

above is from another thread, but i thought it might be relevant here also

[TEPaul]

"very firm conditions combined with slower green speeds

the slower speeds allowed them to place many pins in very inaccessable positions
but those pin positions were somewhat playable due to the slower putting speeds."


D Malley:

In my opinion, THAT is a truly astute observation and remark and I did know going in that was what they intended to do and why. THAT might seem fairly counter-intuitive to some, even some on here, but if they really stop and think about it they should reailze how true and key it is as well as why!

I'd like to say a bit more about that later----particularly about some of the whys about it.

[Terry Lavin]

"very firm conditions combined with slower green speeds

the slower speeds allowed them to place many pins in very inaccessable positions
but those pin positions were somewhat playable due to the slower putting speeds."


D Malley:

In my opinion, THAT is a truly astute observation and remark and I did know going in that was what they intended to do and why. THAT might seem fairly counter-intuitive to some, even some on here, but if they really stop and think about it they should reailze how true and key it is as well as why!

I'd like to say a bit more about that later----particularly about some of the whys about it.

This is the way the USGA set up Beverly last year for the Senior Amateur.  The greens were kept under 11 and the hole locations were put in hard-to-reach and hard-to-read locations, providing defense for the golf course.  If the greens were faster, I think the course might not have been nearly as challenging as it was.  You have to come up with some way to defend the course against players that hit nine iron or wedge into 490 yard holes and I think they did a commendable job at Aronimink.

[Dan Boerger]

D Malley - That is an exceptional point ... the pin on #10, which Rose 3-putted would have been unplayable if they increased the speeds much. Sure, everyone would eventually get it in the hole, but I'm no fan of speeds that are just silly fast for the contours.
Same at #17.

Speaking of which I've never seen the "white" tees where the pros played #17 on Sunday ... but I hope they do it in the future!

[Jerry Kluger]

TEP: Perhaps it is my sick mind but I actually think I understand the concept that slower greens allow for more pinnable locations.

I read something locally that Congressional Blue has reopened and besides a complete reconstruction of the greens they narrowed the fairways - I am sure that Mr. Mucci would agree with me that narrowing the fairways to make the course tougher makes absolutely no sense for the membership.