[Dan Herrmann]

Matt,
You wrote, "The point is that it's possible Aronimink is a one-note pony that appeals primarily to the lower handicap types -- does it have the greatness to be elastic for others? It doesn't seem the case from what you and others have written."

Let me emphasize that my wife Laura (shoots 90's from the ladies tees) LOVED Aronimink.  She found its architecture to be wonderful and not terribly penal (like she sometimes encounters with long forced carries).  

It's not a one-note pony any more (or less) than any other great golf course.

PS - She also loved the club itself - everything from her caddy to the staff to the awesome post-round deck "scene" was first class in every way.

[George Pazin]

FYI, the Corey Pavin "Playing Lessons with the Pros" was shot at Aronimink, so if you ever get a chance, it's worth a viewing.

You Philly guys must get embarrassed at your riches...

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Regardless of the architectural merits of AGC, it looks really good on hidef tv. Compliments from the players and the tv pundits abound.

I'll be there tomorrow to see it myself.

[Matt_Ward]

Shivas:

"Easily" in your top 25. Be curious to know what the other 24 are.

[Mike_Trenham]

We are working with Ron Prichard to bring the Ross character back to our course (St Davids just down the road).

A few things that stand out for me is the fairway lines are not straight and not some contrived bowed in and out line for the sake of appearance only.  The fairways wrap around those punishing fairway bunkers so nicely.  That is not that easy for the superintendents and the staff as there can be some surprising slopes around the bunkers when you bring the fairways up to them.  It is great that the tour and Aronimink did not narrow the fairways.

The tree work done there is first rate.  The trees can come into play but they do not dictate it.  A few years ago the place felt like a maze where if you had to get back the the clubhouse because of a strorm you almost had to follow the holes if you did not know the place well.

I also like the fairway mowing patterns which Ron has been on us about and we just got that underway in the last few weeks.

John has done a great job drying out a course that had a reputation as a swamp.

[J_ Crisham]

Forget the course for a moment and let's discuss the patio. Is there a better place in golf to spend the evening having a Dewar's and Water after a hard fought battle ? Great memories with a fellow GCAer who shall remain nameless but what a hell of a host! And by the way, anyone who doesn't find this top 5 in Philly really has to get out more often.
                                                                                 Jack

[TEPaul]

"-- does it have the greatness to be elastic for others?"


Matt:

Aronimink most certainly does provide an elasticity to golfers if one completely understands and believes in what a very high "Course Rating" and a relatively low "Slope Rating" is all about. If one considers a real differential between those two factors to be some indication of greatness then Aronimink would be very high on the "greatness" scale!

[Dan Herrmann]

Tom,
That was what I was trying to say in post 19, but you said it better.

Jack,
Amen to the patio - it's a perfect setting.

Guys, I suggest we stop trying to convince Matt and just enjoy the course, whether it's in person or this week on TV.

[Jud_T]

The course looks very good.  Particularly the 10th green. By the way, for those who think the distances these guys hit it now is overblown, on #9, a 600 yard uphill par 5, Dustin Johnson hit driver, 4 iron to 20 feet.

[Phil Benedict]

The course looks very good.  Particularly the 10th green. By the way, for those who think the distances these guys hit it now is overblown, on #9, a 600 yard uphill par 5, Dustin Johnson hit driver, 4 iron to 20 feet.

I don't know whether to laugh or cry when I see this.  Probably a 350-yard drive and 250-yard 4-iron.

Regarding distance I attended the CVS Charity Classic this week and followed Bubba Watson for a few holes.  On the measured driving hole he hit it 329-yards.  No help from the wind or very much roll either.  Talk about hang time - the ball seemed like it stayed in the air forever.  And Bubba's not that big, although he does have wide shoulders and long arms.

[Matt_Ward]

Guys:

Curious to point out that Doak gave the place a 6 in CG -- although I do admit that work since then has been done.

I can certainly feel the hometown pride but I take the Missouri approach on the place -- for now.

Great weather this weekend -- should be a fun time for all who gather. No doubt -- enjoy the patio !!!

[PCCraig]

Looks fantastic on TV...in all honesty I wasn't expecting much (for whatever reason) but thought it was very interesting to see the big guys play the course.

BTW: Tiger's third shot on the par-5 16th was the worst golf swing I've ever seen him make. That in slow mo was horrific!

[Dan Boerger]

Pat - There is absolutely no excuse for that swing ... but that is a slightly downhill shot, and one which I've put right plenty of times. No surprise however it's playing the easiest hole on the course thus far.

[Phil McDade]

Guys:

Curious to point out that Doak gave the place a 6 in CG -- although I do admit that work since then has been done.

I can certainly feel the hometown pride but I take the Missouri approach on the place -- for now.

Great weather this weekend -- should be a fun time for all who gather. No doubt -- enjoy the patio !!!

By my count, this is Matt's 17th post on this thread criticizing, questioning, wondering, snarking, joking, and/or arguing -- without admittedly having seen the course in something like two decades -- the merits of Aronimink, in the face of repeated posts by folks who have seen it, and have played it, among them some of the better golfers on this Discussion Board.

Click on image:

http://www.wired.com/images_blogs/gadgetlab/deadhorse.jpg

[D_Malley]

Jason Day quote:

"The rough is pretty brutal out there," he said. "If you can hit it pretty high and long, you can get down far enough where you can have a wedge in. So it's not like you're coming in there with a 7-iron and have to land it 20 or 30 yards short of the green and run it up."

Day, who is 34th on the money list this season, was able to use a wedge eight times on his approach shots. That usually tends to help.


Tiger Woods quote:

"They had a few tough pins out there," said Woods, who was grouped with Dustin Johnson and Davis Love III. "A few were really hard to get to, but most of them were pretty accessible. If you drive it well here, you're going to have wedges in your hands most of the day. You should be able to get after these flags. And we did. Unfortunately, our group didn't make a lot of putts."

[JESII]

I can certainly feel the hometown pride but I take the Missouri approach on the place -- for now.

Glad to see you say "for now" because your tune will change once you re-see it...you just might want to be careful to not bite off more than you can chew in terms of tee selection...

Interesting thing about hometown pride...you asked us to compare it within our hometown exclusively so any pride would be against AGC in favor of our more regular courses...for me, placing it on a par with HVCC says everything I can.

[Peter Pallotta]

Jim - what I like about Aronomink from what I've seen on tv is that, while not appearing to ask anything too onerous of the players, it obviously does - since Woods, love and Johnson went +11 yesterady.  This is a nice quality in a course, especially one that looks so understated and graceful. Curious though: in having it match up with your beloved HV, is that the tournament golfer in you or the gca.com wonk doing the comparing?

Peter

[JESII]

There's just one me Petey...wonk all the way.

I think this course is a great example though of my long held belief that people should not try to voice an opinion of a course for anyone's game beyond their own because no matter how smart you are or how similar our games look, you just don't know what I'm thinking about on the tee, in the fairway or on the greens...it really should be said...what the course makes me think about.

The aggregation of those individual opinions should give us a ranking list.

I didn't see much of the TV yesterday but hope to the rest of the weekend but I would attribute the relatively high -4 leading score and a likely single digit winning score to the fact that it has just 2 par 5's and most every green has good movement so every player will have a high number of breaking 5 - 8 footers that they don't normally face.

The tee to green challenges are good and interesting, but they rarely matter for these guys...it's the greens and th elack of good birdie holes that will keep the scores up.

[Peter Pallotta]

Thanks, Jim. I always appreciate your pov.

But about there being only one of you - I bet you've voiced a few opinions on here that you wouldn't amongst the boys in the locker room. (Actually, you probably would, but the boys would look at you funny...)

Peter 

[Matt_Ward]

Phil:

Hold on amigo -- where does it say I must walk in lock step with you or any other person for that matter?

I simply stated that I played the course prior to the extensive work by RP and was just curious to know how others see the place when stacked up against the other more noted Phila courses -- many of them the handiwork of Flynn.

When I see Shivas say the course is architecturally among his top 25 in the USA I simply asked him to give me a clear sampling of the other 24 courses in order to see where Aronimink stacks up against it.

I'm eager to see / play the course again to catch up. But let me point out that Doak's rating number for the course was just a six. If things are much improved -- beyond all the fanfare tied to the height of the rough and the nature of the patio -- then I'd be happy to weigh in with such a personal observation.

Jim:

Allow me to "change my tune" when I play the course. I may -- I also may not. You say the course is on par with HV and that does say something to me since I believe HV gets so little atention outside it's immediate area.

[Mike Cirba]

Matt,

Ron Prichard asked me to tell you to get off your fat arse and go see the golf course for yourself.

I'm serious.

[Matt_Davenport]

Mike,
Thanks for putting into words what we've collectively all been thinking

[Jud_T]

We all, including Matt, agree that he needs to get out to see the course again.  And from some of his other work that I've seen Ron is the man.  But 6+1=7 boys. 6 to 8 is a very serious jump, and if in fact it is a Doak 7 that probably keeps it just out of the highest ranking.....

[mike_malone]

 After two days following Tiger I would only reiterate my statement about the greens being demanding. Looking at it from an angle makes #10 awesome. I found the stretch of 6 -7-8 as the kind of variety I love in other very good courses. It is a Doak 7 for me.

 One funny thing I heard this morning while walking across the vacant #18 and #9 on the way to Tiger's start on #10 . "Where's Tiger?" while 10,000 people were lining the hole.

[Mike_Trenham]

The improvements are massive.  This place used to remind me of Oak Hill East now it is much more akin to Plainfield.   I would have agreed that it was in the bottom of the top 10 in the golf association before the changes now it much more clearly in the top 5.

Biggest Improvements

1) The expansion of the greens, this is the greatest feature of AGC.  They were always regarded as fast and difficult but the expansions make their character shine and open up exciting pin positions that were not possible a decade ago
2) The clearing out of the trees really allows you to absorb how good the land is and was put to use
3) The bunkers are each unique yet of similar style and not a great place to be
4) Conditioning is perfect although the fairways are too tight for someone with no clubhead speed like me

Biggest negative for me had always been the lack of short par 4's but for the pro's today there was enough variety, they kill it.

I was out there today and from a spectating standpoint it was easy to watch play on a few holes at the same time from a number of spots.  The PGA should really pay attention and bring their championship back to AGC.

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